[Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications - another alternative

Fri Mar 26 12:50:03 EDT 2021

Michael,

OK, last response for me on this topic

I assume you are pushing/pulling on the correct part of the control line tackle, the part with the mechanical advantage?

You use the clam cleat to set the tension in the control line.  Less tension = easier movement but also a lower mainsheet force threshold before the traveler car starts to slide along the bar to leeward.  The tension must be set high enough; that, the traveler car does not move along the bar under “normal” mainsheet force.  Your tolerance for risk will determine how much you go beyond that minimum.  It’s something that is best determined out on the water.  If the traveler car is slipping under conditions you think are normal; then, increase the control line tension.  We have our control line tension set pretty high.  Once you have set the control line tension, cleat off the line and leave it alone.  You normally only push/pull on the control line to move the traveler.

If you find the traveler car is hard to adjust even with mechanical advantage; then, I would take a look inside the traveler car and turning blocks to see if there’s something stuck/broken/crudded up in there.  Stan, correct me if I’m wrong; but, I don’t think it needs to be lubricated.  I think it helps to keep the traveler bar bright and shiny.  But, this might be just my preferences as a chemical engineer.  Chemical engineers are irresistibly drawn to bright, shiny, polished alloy steel equipment!  I sail on fresh water and my traveler hasn’t needed any attention, other than external cleaning, for 3 years.  If you sail on salt water, the traveler might need more maintenance, just like all the other running rigging on your boat.

If all this fails to make your GBI 29 Traveler move more easily; then, I’m stuck and defer to Stan.  I suppose it’s possible there could be a manufacturing defect.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Michael McKay<mailto:mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 11:56 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications - another alternative

One last group of questions before we change the topic—I am new to my R22,
but I find my traveler very “stiff” and fairly hard to adjust without
considerable physical effort.  Is that normal or does it need some
lubrication?  How much tension should be in the traveler line?

Thank you for the very informative discussion.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:40 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
wrote:

> Rick,
>
> OK, here’s 2 books on sail trim
>
> Bill Gladstone, “North U TRIM”, 6th ed, (2007), North U, Madison, CT
>
> “The North U Fast Couse”, (1990), North U, Milford, CT
>
> Each of the above are textbooks as part of a North U sailing class and
> there are companion videos under the same titles.
>
> Here’s 2 more videos:
>
> Peter Bateman, “Sail Trimming Made Easy”, R129, Bennett Marine Video,
> Marina Del Ray, CA
>
> “The Shape Of Speed”, R329, Bennett Marine Video, Marina Del Ray, CA
>
> One thing you will note in all of these references is that the traveler is
> constantly adjusted to maintain the windward/leeward helm balance.  The
> traveler is not a digital on/off device, it is constantly used for fine
> tuning while underway.  With the traveler and the tiller both under the
> control of the helmsman, the Rhodes 22’s helm balance can be adjusted on
> the fly better than any other boat I’ve ever experienced.  The GBI 29
> Traveler has the additional advantage of having sufficient range of motion
> and responsiveness to be able to depower the rig in a gust and quickly get
> back on line after the gust has passed.  If other boats could do it, they
> would!  If your GBI-29 Traveler cannot do this; then, you are using it
> wrong.  If you are busting your knuckles on your traveler then I can only
> imagine what unspeakable act you are attempting to commit! 😊
>
> In general, racing dingies do not have as much range of traveler movement
> as our Rhodes 22’s.  Since the range of movement is limited, you cannot use
> the traveler to depower the main.  Some keelboats also do not have
> sufficient range of motion in the traveler.  Some boats are limited by
> their traveler design, like the 2nd generation traveler on the Rhodes 22,
> which had poor ergonomics on the clam cleat placement, thus making it hard
> for the helmsman to operate without leaving his preferred hiking position
> on the windward gunnel.  Some boats have sticky, poorly designed, &/or
> placed traveler tracks, thus making it impossible for the helmsman to
> constantly play with the traveler.  Name the sailboats, other than the
> Rhodes 22, that you’ve sailed that combine sufficient range of traveler
> movement to be able to depower the rig, good ergonomics for the helmsman,
> fast response, and can be operated with one hand.  Off the top of my head,
> I can’t think of any.  Our boats are unique.
>
> The only Rhodes 22 I have access to is S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, a 1976
> model.  How about if I spot you 10 sec/nm?
>
> This thread is getting really long and very old.  Can we please change the
> subject?
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:37 AM
> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications -
> another alternative
>
> Rob: No, my boat did not have anything attached to the back stays that
> would
> attach to a traveler. I thought that those with the end cups were specially
> made. Otherwise, how were the cups attached?
>
> Graham Stewart
> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf
> Of
> Lowe, Rob
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:25 AM
> To: 'Curtis Ruck'; 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications -
> another alternative
>
> Graham,
> My first boat was a 1976 and had the traveler bar mounted between two 'bar
> end cups' that attached to the back stays.  Is your boat not similarity
> equipped? I don't think there was anything special about the backstays.  -
> Rob
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> Graham
> Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:11 AM
> To: 'Curtis Ruck' <ruckc at yahoo.com>; 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications -
> another alternative
>
> I have been interested in the traveler discussion. My boat (1976) didn't
> have a traveler when I got it and the mainsheet was simply attached to the
> table base in the cockpit. My backstays are not equipped to install a
> traveler and replacing the stays with new ones seemed cost prohibitive to
> me. Initially I installed a traveler between the lazerette and the cockpit
> seats. That worked well enough but made movement around the cockpit
> awkward.
>
> My latest version was to mount the traveler track to a 1" stainless steel
> tube and fasten that to my stern rail where it would seem to work in a
> manner similar to those attached to the back stays. The rail does not flex
> like the backstays would but I don't know if that is a good thing or not.
> While this system seems very strong to me I am no engineer or otherwise
> qualified to know.
>
> For those who are reluctant to pay the cost of both the backstay
> replacement
> plus the cost of the new traveler this arrangement might be worth
> considering.
>
> I like that the traveler being close to the stern rail means I don't have
> an
> additional barrier to reaching over the stern rail to lift the motor and
> that it is out of the way when sailing. I don't like the fact the it is
> awkward to reach the lee traveler line. Any thought on improvements or
> worries about this installation would be welcome.
>
> Graham Stewart
> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> Kingston Ontario
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf
> Of
> Curtis Ruck via Rhodes22-list
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:45 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
>
> Hmm, i'll jump in and throw my two cents in, with my 1976 R22.
>
> When i'm racing in gusty 15+ knots... i am typically sitting on the side
> rails above the seat, with one hand on the tiller extension and my other
> fully gloved hand is holding the mainsheet uncleated, and i use that hand
> to either let slip the mainsheet in a strong gust, or i give and take a
> little with my hand holding the mainsheet from flying loose.  I have a
> harken 3:1 windward sheeting traveler rail mounted on the back stays.  I
> try to get the mainsheet as flat as possible.  I would never use my
> traveler to try controlling the main for gusting, holding the uncleated
> mainsheet just feels natural, a little give, a little take, lets me feel
> like i'm riding with the wind, and it allows instant response.  Though on
> long races my arms feel it.
>
> BTW, my traveler setup in the picture.  I mounted the harken traveler rail
> on a 1" OD Fiberglass tube with stainless 316 mounts on each end that the
> backstays run through.  Mounts are attached to the backstay with a small
> stainless tube slightly larger than the backstay diameter to reduce the
> friction wear on the backstays.  I love the setup, but sometimes wish I had
> a fixed traveler rail that wasn't floating.
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> --
> Curtis
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 8:38 PM Shawn Boles <shawn.sustain at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Oh boy, a match race! Much more enjoyable than the obscene, but
> > fascinating, America's Cup races I just watched.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Shawn s/v Sweet Baboo (1986/2010)
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:49 PM Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > I learned to sail and race by taking a college physical education class
> > > over 50 years ago.  I've raced dinghies through keel boats, including
> the
> > > R22, and as skipper, have a few blue flags to show for it.
> > >
> > > I accept your challenge to match race R22's with the IMF and diamond
> > board.
> > >
> > > I challenge you to produce the videos you said are so common
> > demonstrating
> > > using the traveller on small sloops to dump wind during gusts
> > > that overpower while close hauled.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Rick Lange
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 2:44 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rick,
> > > >
> > > > We were having a discussion of mainsail trim and traveler use in
> heavy
> > > air
> > > > wherein the rig needs to be depowered in gusts and then quickly
> brought
> > > > back on line after the gust has passed.  Mainsail shape for <= 10
> knots
> > > is
> > > > considered light air and is a different subject.  As you noted, the
> > > optimum
> > > > light air mainsail shape is achieved with a different traveler car
> > > position
> > > > and mainsheet tension vs heavy air.  In light air, it is also much
> less
> > > > likely the rig will need to be depowered as per the original
> > discussion.
> > > >
> > > > It is beyond the scope of my job description to give tutorials on
> sail
> > > > trim in all possible conditions. I suggest you take a class or go
> > racing.
> > > >
> > > > Stan,
> > > >
> > > > I give up!  I've tried to explain the merits of your GBI 29 Traveler
> to
> > > > the best of my ability.  But, it's not working.  If you want to jump
> > into
> > > > this discussion, go ahead.  But, I'm done.
> > > >
> > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> --
Michael McKay (mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com)