[Rhodes22-list] Axle location

[ROGER PIHLAJA]

Cary,

Agreed!  This is yet another reason to have a tandem axle trailer.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Cary Tolbert<mailto:retiredtoby at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 3:00 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location

For what it is worth, LOW tire pressure on the trailer will also affect the
sway.  Yeah, been there.
Cary.

On Fri, May 21, 2021, 2:41 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Slim,
>
> As I recall, Fandango is a newer R-22 with IMF mainsail and a much fancier
> interior.  Your boat and trailer probably weighs more than 3100 lbs when
> rigged for trailering with full tanks and the outboard mounted on the
> transom.  3600 lbs wouldn’t surprise me; but, I would get it weighed to be
> certain.  Then, I would use the > 10% of the gross trailer weight criteria
> for the minimum tongue weight.  If it’s stable on the highway; then, you
> have enough tongue weight and might be able to back off a little.  But,
> having the trailer go into a death sway on the expressway is terrifying!
> So, be careful.  On my boat/trailer combination, the worst case scenarios
> are strong crosswinds &/or the shockwave from a passing truck.  The trailer
> might be nominally stable only to fail an “insult test” and go into a bad
> wobble.  My wife won’t allow me to have that kind of excitement!  If the
> present tongue weight isn’t causing some other issue, like something
> rubbing or dragging on the ground, what’s the incentive for reducing the
> tongue weight?
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> From: Steven Alm<mailto:stevenalm at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:50 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
>
> This discussion has made me curious, and after seeing Todd's drawing I went
> out and measured and yes, my front axle is 6" in front of what his drawing
> shows, and my rear axle is 36" behind that. But Roger, you now have me
> wondering if my tongue weight is too much. I haven't taken the bathroom
> scale to it — and I will — but if it's more than approx. 310 lbs, wouldn't
> I be able to achieve that by loading the boat a little farther back? That
> would be easy to do and I could be pretty exact by positioning the bow stop
> slightly rearward when I load. Thanks.
>
> Slim
> Fandango
>
> On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:26 AM Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Perfect. Thanks Roger. That is much simpler than what I had imagined. I
> > appreciate your patience as now that I see it, it should have been
> obvious
> > to me.
> >
> > My boat has always had a full marine toilet and holding tank. When I got
> > my boat about 26 years ago the holding tank was immediately behind the
> > V-birth and there was no water tank on the boat nor was there any obvious
> > place where one had been even though there was a deck fill. After my
> > rebuild I replaced the old metal, and leaking, holding tank with a
> smaller
> > poly tank in the same place as the previous tank had been but I also had
> > room for my battery. Because I just day sail in recent years my holding
> > tank is empty all of the time - so no weight there to speak of.
> >
> > For water I am using a removable jerry can that stays below the sink
> > midship on the starboard side. Again, there is rarely any water in it.
> When
> > I need water I just take the can up to my house and fill what I need. I
> > have a deck fill installed but it is easier to just fill the tank given
> > that my boat is docked in front of my house.
> >
> > Where is your water tank located?
> >
> > Graham Stewart
> > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > Kingston Ontario
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 8:03 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> >
> > Graham,
> >
> > You will need a bathroom scale that reads up to 350 lbs and 2 hydraulic
> > bottle jacks.  First load up the boat as you will have it for trailering
> it
> > down the road.  In my case, that includes a full tank of fuel, empty
> > porta-potti, full water tank, and of course, the outboard mounted on the
> > transom.  I assume you have a tongue jack?  If not, you will need a jack
> > stand or something to support the end of the tongue on top of the scale.
> > Start by putting the tongue jack on top of the scale and get a tongue
> > weight measurement.  The rule of thumb for tongue weight is about 10% of
> > the gross trailer weight in order to have stability.  Figure your boat
> and
> > single axle trailer weighs about 3100 lbs.  So, you need about 310 lbs of
> > tongue weight.  Now, jack the trailer frame up from the same spot on both
> > sides.  I would start immediately behind the tires.  Get the trailer’s
> > frame at approximately the same level as when it was supported by the
> > tires.  Note that you will probably have to remove the tires to get it
> low
> > enough.  Now, measure the tongue weight as before.  It should be greater
> > than before.  Keep moving the jack points aft until you find a spot on
> the
> > frame that gives you about 310 lbs of tongue weight.  That’s where your
> > single axle needs to be moved to.
> >
> > By the way, your R-22 is the same year as mine.  The early R-22’s had
> > porta-potti’s, not marine toilets and holding tanks.  Where is your water
> > tank located?
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> > Windows 10
> >
> > From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 9:59 PM
> > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> >
> > Thanks to all for their suggestions. It seems that the best solution for
> > me would be to have the axle moved back. I don't trailer enough to
> justify
> > the second axle and the other option to add weight to the tongue seem to
> me
> > to be a workaround rather than a fix and moving the boat forward is both
> > very difficult and damaging to the hull. The area immediately aft of the
> > V-birth hold my holding tank and battery, not my water tank,  so
> obviously
> > I am not going to keep my holding tank full permanently.
> >
> > The big question for me now is to determine exactly how far aft I will
> > have the axle moved. If anyone can suggest how I might determine that
> > distance I would be grateful to hear your suggestions.
> >
> > Graham Stewart
> > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > Kingston Ontario
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 5:20 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle location
> >
> > Graham,
> >
> > Assuming you have a 15 gallon water tank mounted at the aft end of the
> > V-berths, filling it would add ~125 lbs.  This additional weight would be
> > located at about the front end of the bunks on the trailer.  Because the
> > weight is not located right on the end of the tongue, you will not see
> the
> > full 125 lbs as additional tongue weight.  On S/V Dynamic Equilibrium and
> > my Lil Dude trailer, filling the water tank adds about 48 lbs of tongue
> > weight.  The rest of the 125 lbs is loaded onto the trailer wheels
> because
> > of the location of the water tank.  If the tongue weight situation on
> your
> > trailer is causing marginal stability; this extra 48 lbs may help.  It
> > certainly won’t hurt.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On May 20, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Graham,
> > >
> > > Fill your water tank.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Rick Lange
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:54 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Graham,
> > >>
> > >> Whatever the reference point or the measurement, the fact that your
> > tongue
> > >> weight is too low tells you everything you need to know.  If you don’t
> > want
> > >> to just live with it, your options are: move the single axle backward
> on
> > >> the trailer, add a 2nd axle behind the 1st, move the boat forward on
> the
> > >> trailer, or add weight to the tongue.
> > >>
> > >> Roger Pihlaja
> > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >>
> > >> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> > >> Windows 10
> > >>
> > >> From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:50 PM
> > >> To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> > >>
> > >> Sorry for the confusion. Because all of the other dimensions matched
> the
> > >> drawing I used the distance from the axle to the back because it was
> the
> > >> easiest measurement forgetting that others might have a different
> > >> structure.
> > >>
> > >> The distance between the center of the axle and the point where the
> > >> extension enters the trailer is 165" while that distance on the
> drawing
> > is
> > >> 172"
> > >>
> > >> Graham Stewart
> > >> gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf
> > >> Of
> > >> Lowe, Rob
> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 12:33 PM
> > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> > >>
> > >> I agree with Todd that the reference point should be the center of the
> > ball
> > >> socket.  That's where the tongue weight is measure and where the
> towing
> > >> force is applied. - Rob
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> > Todd
> > >> Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 11:11 AM
> > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Axle locattion
> > >>
> > >> By looking at these old drawings, I guess the datum point/benchmark
> > really
> > >> should have been the center of the ball socket, which would have
> better
> > >> standardized the tongue weight (and balance). That would have to
> assume
> > the
> > >> coupler and extension lengths were somewhat uniform.
> > >>
> > >> Measuring the axle position from the rear of the trailer frame or the
> > rear
> > >> bunk support is not the best reference.
> > >> Also, the angles of the bunks are a little off (I was never good at
> > trig).
> > >> Thankfully my carpenter's calculator has a rise over run function. The
> > >> angles for the bunks are closer to 22.5° in the rear and 37° in the
> > front
> > >> (from horizontal).
> > >>
> > >> I seemed to remember there was approximately a 6" difference in axle
> > >> positions between owners' trailers, but most reported the more
> rearward
> > >> dimension so I changed the drawing. There may be early drawings of the
> > >> trailer in the archives before I edited the drawing which show the
> > forward
> > >> measurements..but I do not know.
> > >>
> > >> Todd T.
> > >>
> > >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:46 AM Cary Tolbert <retiredtoby at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Graham, my boat is an '86 and the trailer that came with the boat is
> a
> > >>> Triad.. Therefore I must assume the trailer is an 86 as well. I just
> > >>> measured from the end of the trailer to the center of the axle and it
> > is
> > >> ,
> > >>> DRUM ROLL  . . . . . . . . . 75 1/2 inch. Sorry to add to the
> > confusion..
> > >>> My front end measurements may also be off. I had the extension bar
> > >> replaced
> > >>> and last year added a braking system which added to the length of the
> > >>> extension with a brake actuator.  Mike is the second generation in
> the
> > >>> trailer company and I am sure the trailer has evolved over the years.
> > >> You
> > >>> know that Stan is always tinkering with something. I think my trailer
> > was
> > >>> manufactured in Connecticut . The newer trailers are made in NC.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best of luck
> > >>> Cary
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:33 AM Graham Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> I just measured the location of my axle and compared it to the
> > drawings
> > >>>> prepared by Todd and found that my axle is 7" forward of what the
> > >>> drawings
> > >>>> specify. That strikes me as a pretty significant difference. I am
> > >>> wondering
> > >>>> if the others who have found it impossible to get their boats far
> > >> enough
> > >>>> forward might also measure the distance between the back of their
> > >> trailer
> > >>>> to the center of the axle to see if this is the reason for the
> > >>> difficulty.
> > >>>> The drawing stipulates that this distance should be 70" but mine is
> > >> 77".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Does anyone know whether this dimension changed at some time between
> > >>> older
> > >>>> and newer iterations of the boat?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Graham Stewart
> > >>>> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > >>>> Kingston Ontario
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>