From mwhornblower at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 18:33:53 2022 From: mwhornblower at gmail.com (Matt Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 17:33:53 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short shaft work? Many thanks, Matt Wilson Hornblower II White Bear Lake From chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 18:42:57 2022 From: chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com (Chris Geankoplis) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:42:57 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: long shaft for sure. Chris Geankoplis On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 6:34 PM Matt Wilson wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick > question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the > typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short shaft > work? > > Many thanks, > Matt Wilson > Hornblower II > White Bear Lake > From sea20 at verizon.net Tue Mar 1 18:45:52 2022 From: sea20 at verizon.net (Scott Andrews) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:45:52 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would go with the long shaft. Scott 86? Rhodes22 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 1, 2022, at 6:34 PM, Matt Wilson wrote: > > ?Hi everyone, > I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick > question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the > typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short shaft > work? > > Many thanks, > Matt Wilson > Hornblower II > White Bear Lake From mjm at michaelmeltzer.com Tue Mar 1 19:04:00 2022 From: mjm at michaelmeltzer.com (michael meltzer) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:04:00 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was built for a 20 inch shaft motor, 15 inch motor will pop out with minor waves and sit to low to water that you think it drowning. The 25 inch shaft will never lift out. On Tue, Mar 1, 2022, 5:46 PM Scott Andrews via Rhodes22-list < rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote: > I would go with the long shaft. > Scott 86? Rhodes22 > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 1, 2022, at 6:34 PM, Matt Wilson wrote: > > > > ?Hi everyone, > > I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick > > question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the > > typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short > shaft > > work? > > > > Many thanks, > > Matt Wilson > > Hornblower II > > White Bear Lake > > From mwhornblower at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:15:16 2022 From: mwhornblower at gmail.com (Matt Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:15:16 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone! On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 6:04 PM michael meltzer wrote: > It was built for a 20 inch shaft motor, 15 inch motor will pop out with > minor waves and sit to low to water that you think it drowning. The 25 inch > shaft will never lift out. > > On Tue, Mar 1, 2022, 5:46 PM Scott Andrews via Rhodes22-list < > rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote: > > > I would go with the long shaft. > > Scott 86? Rhodes22 > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 1, 2022, at 6:34 PM, Matt Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > ?Hi everyone, > > > I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this > quick > > > question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the > > > typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short > > shaft > > > work? > > > > > > Many thanks, > > > Matt Wilson > > > Hornblower II > > > White Bear Lake > > > > > From lgioia at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 07:09:14 2022 From: lgioia at yahoo.com (Larry Gioia) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 07:09:14 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <823283E8-2CD8-4868-801A-4BC330075712@yahoo.com> I agree - long shaft. Larry ?86 R22 > On Mar 1, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Scott Andrews via Rhodes22-list wrote: > > ?I would go with the long shaft. > Scott 86? Rhodes22 > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 1, 2022, at 6:34 PM, Matt Wilson wrote: >> >> ?Hi everyone, >> I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick >> question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the >> typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short shaft >> work? >> >> Many thanks, >> Matt Wilson >> Hornblower II >> White Bear Lake > From snstaum at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 07:11:21 2022 From: snstaum at gmail.com (Stephen Staum) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 07:11:21 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used a short shaft, air cooled Briggs and Straton outboard on my '87 Rhodes with the standard multiple pulley assisted engine mount. I was able to lower the mount plate by 3" leaving me only 2" short of where the 20" long shaft would ride. When carrying guests, 3 people would sit on the port side while motoring to keep the prop comfortably in the water. It worked for several years until the boat was lost in a hurricane in 2011. I did get picked on at my club as it sounded like a lawn mower. *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore* *Needham, MA* On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 6:34 PM Matt Wilson wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick > question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the > typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short shaft > work? > > Many thanks, > Matt Wilson > Hornblower II > White Bear Lake > From ric at stottarchitecture.com Wed Mar 2 07:27:11 2022 From: ric at stottarchitecture.com (Ric Stott) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 07:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Outboard shaft length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a 25? shaft ?extra long? as it?s called. I?ve had the prop spin out of the water in the ocean. When I rebuilt the lift, I lowered the rails 1-1/2?. No problem now. Ric Dadventure ?84 Continental Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 2, 2022, at 7:11 AM, Stephen Staum wrote: > > ?I used a short shaft, air cooled Briggs and Straton outboard on my '87 > Rhodes with the standard multiple pulley assisted engine mount. I was able > to lower the mount plate by 3" leaving me only 2" short of where the 20" > long shaft would ride. When carrying guests, 3 people would sit on the > port side while motoring to keep the prop comfortably in the water. It > worked for several years until the boat was lost in a hurricane in 2011. > > I did get picked on at my club as it sounded like a lawn mower. > > *Thanks and Stay Well,* > > *Stephen Staum* > *s/v Pinafore* > > *Needham, MA* > > > >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 6:34 PM Matt Wilson wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I am having trouble logging in to the full list so I will ask this quick >> question here. Is it necessary to have a long shaft outboard with the >> typical multiple purchase Rhodes outboard lift (1990) or would short shaft >> work? >> >> Many thanks, >> Matt Wilson >> Hornblower II >> White Bear Lake >> From mike at traildesign.com Thu Mar 3 17:30:09 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 16:30:09 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? Message-ID: I just purchased an ST1000 Tiller Pilot from Defender and after reading the instructions several times, I'm left scratching my head about a critical part of the installation. According to the directions, with the tiller centered, I should have 23.2" from the gunwale mounting pin to the center of the tiller handle. I premeasured everything and ordered a 3" extension and a 5" extension. I assumed the tiller pilot would come from the factory with the pushrod extended half way through it's length so that it would move equally to port and starboard. Mine came with the pushrod fully retracted. The directions say nothing about powering it up and extending the pushrod to the halfway point. Which is what I just did. Since (my) logic dictates this is correct, I'm going to attempt to install it this way. So, my sanity check type question to those of you who've installed them; did your tiller pilot come with the pushrod extended to the center or did you have to do something similar to what I did. The service dept. at Defender was no help and Raymarine wouldn't answer the phone. I've attached a photo of what it looked like out of the box. Mike Riter SV Emma B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1652.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 4328898 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Thu Mar 3 18:38:58 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 23:38:58 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, The Tiller Pilot is shipped with the pushrod fully retracted in order to make it as physically small as possible. When I stow my Tiller Pilot, I also retract the pushrod as far as possible. I do this to protect the pushrod and make the unit as small as possible. On p 35 of the Owner?s handbook, there is a drawing that shows the basic installation. There is a front elevation and an overhead plan view. Both drawings show the pushrod halfway extended and making a 90 deg angle vs the centered tiller. Although the text does not explicitly state it, you correctly deduced the ?home? position of the pushrod is halfway extended. This must be true in order for the Tiller Pilot to be able to move the rudder both port and starboard. So, Dimension A is the length when the unit is at home position. The Owner?s Guide gives the mounting socket centerline to tiller pin centerline (?Dimension A?) as 589 mm (23.2 inch). The owner must install pushrod extensions to lengthen the pushrod in order to make up the difference between Dimension A and the actual, as installed, distance between the mounting socket and the tiller pin on your boat. >From p 9 of the Owner?s Guide, Section 2.1 Basic Principles: The Tiller Pilot always powers up in Standby mode. To select automatic steering, steady the vessel on the required heading, place the actuator over the tiller pin (the push rod can be extended or retracted using the -1, +1, -10, and +10 keys), and press AUTO. In other words, to insure a so-called ?bumpless transfer? from MANUAL to AUTO steering, the Tiller Pilot must be manually extended or retracted until the unit is the correct length vs the current tiller position. Note that, in STANDBY mode, the current compass heading becomes the SETPOINT heading when you press AUTO. Hopefully, this explanation helps. It sounds like you are on the right track. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Mike Riter Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 2:30 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? I just purchased an ST1000 Tiller Pilot from Defender and after reading the instructions several times, I'm left scratching my head about a critical part of the installation. According to the directions, with the tiller centered, I should have 23.2" from the gunwale mounting pin to the center of the tiller handle. I premeasured everything and ordered a 3" extension and a 5" extension. I assumed the tiller pilot would come from the factory with the pushrod extended half way through it's length so that it would move equally to port and starboard. Mine came with the pushrod fully retracted. The directions say nothing about powering it up and extending the pushrod to the halfway point. Which is what I just did. Since (my) logic dictates this is correct, I'm going to attempt to install it this way. So, my sanity check type question to those of you who've installed them; did your tiller pilot come with the pushrod extended to the center or did you have to do something similar to what I did. The service dept. at Defender was no help and Raymarine wouldn't answer the phone. I've attached a photo of what it looked like out of the box. Mike Riter SV Emma B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1652.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 4328898 bytes Desc: not available URL: From peter at sunnybeeches.com Thu Mar 3 21:38:53 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2022 18:38:53 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? Message-ID: Mike, You probably are overthinking this. :^) You've got the right extension pieces, so you should be in good shape. It isn't necessary for the tiller to be dead amidships when the tiller pilot arm is exactly half-way extended. That would be the goal, obviously, but unlikely to be achieved with precision. The tiller position that will keep the boat going in a straight line is rarely dead amidships, and is rarely constant for any length of time. The tiller pilot will push if it wants the boat to turn to starboard, and pull if wants the boat to turn to port. It's good if there's roughly equal push and pull capacity. But it doesn't work on the basis of knowing where amidships is. --Peter From mike at traildesign.com Fri Mar 4 13:53:34 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 12:53:34 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well Whew! Thanks Roger and Peter. In keeping with the notion no 2 Rhodes are created the same, I found the drop from the bottom of my fiberglass tiller to be level with the center of the push rod is 4". And with both the 5" and 3" extensions in place the rear pivot pin on the tiller pilot (square from the tiller) just reaches the point where the curve from vertical to horizontal on the starboard gunwale. Now I'm debating on whether to return the 3" adapter and get a 4" adapter to add another inch or take advantage of what I'm betting is thicker fiberglass at the current location. In anticipation of the wiring, I pulled out the switch panel and found a tangle of unlabeled wires with multiple attachments to many of the switches. So all that gets to be updated. Yaa. The wiring generates another question, I'm planning to tie this into my Garmin chartplotter via NMEA 0183 and may add wind data to this one day as well. Has anyone set up separate buss bars just for the NMEA? Any advice + or - on that would be appreciated. Maybe I'm biased because I'm a R22 owner, but of the sailing and cruising forums I follow, this is the friendliest and most helpful of them all. I really appreciate everyone here! Mike Riter SV Emma B On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 8:39 PM Peter Nyberg wrote: > Mike, > > You probably are overthinking this. :^) You've got the right extension > pieces, so you should be in good shape. It isn't necessary for the tiller > to be dead amidships when the tiller pilot arm is exactly half-way > extended. That would be the goal, obviously, but unlikely to be achieved > with precision. > > The tiller position that will keep the boat going in a straight line is > rarely dead amidships, and is rarely constant for any length of time. The > tiller pilot will push if it wants the boat to turn to starboard, and pull > if wants the boat to turn to port. It's good if there's roughly equal push > and pull capacity. But it doesn't work on the basis of knowing where > amidships is. > > --Peter > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Fri Mar 4 16:33:34 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 13:33:34 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? - & NMEA 0183 Message-ID: Mike, I don't have a picture, but if look at a section of this video (https://youtu.be/y6p6uVo6xQ4) just after the 2 minute mark you can see pretty clearly where I mounted my pivot pin. I found the fiberglass in this area to be a pretty consistent thickness (in my case thin). All of my NMEA enable gizmos are wired to a multiplexor which broadcasts wifi. I learned just enough about NMEA 0183 to set this up, and then promptly forgot most of it. But as I recall, some kind of multiplexor is needed (as opposed to a simple bus), because otherwise all of the 'talkers' will just talk all over each other, and the 'listeners' will just hear gibberish. --Peter > On 2022-03-04, at 13:53:34 EST, Mike Riter wrote: > > Well Whew! Thanks Roger and Peter. In keeping with the notion no 2 Rhodes are > created the same, I found the drop from the bottom of my fiberglass tiller to be > level with the center of the push rod is 4". And with both the 5" and 3" > extensions in place the rear pivot pin on the tiller pilot (square from the > tiller) just reaches the point where the curve from vertical to horizontal on > the starboard gunwale. Now I'm debating on whether to return the 3" adapter and > get a 4" adapter to add another inch or take advantage of what I'm betting is > thicker fiberglass at the current location. > > In anticipation of the wiring, I pulled out the switch panel and found a tangle > of unlabeled wires with multiple attachments to many of the switches. So all > that gets to be updated. Yaa. > > The wiring generates another question, I'm planning to tie this into my Garmin > chartplotter via NMEA 0183 and may add wind data to this one day as well. Has > anyone set up separate buss bars just for the NMEA? Any advice + or - on that > would be appreciated. > > Maybe I'm biased because I'm a R22 owner, but of the sailing and cruising forums > I follow, this is the friendliest and most helpful of them all. I really > appreciate everyone here! > > Mike Riter > > SV Emma B > > > > > From mike at traildesign.com Fri Mar 4 17:22:21 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 16:22:21 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? - & NMEA 0183 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I knew you had some mention of your tiller pilot in one of your videos, but I mistakenly thought it was under your project headlines. Which is why I couldn't find it. So thanks for the link Peter. The hole for my tiller pin is going to be closer to the rolled edge than yours is. So fingers crossed. Hey, if I have to tab something in because the gunwale is thin, I'll have two surfaces to anchor to. The multiplexer makes sense. Thanks for that. Now we go down another rabbit hole. Since it allows you to connect your IPad via wifi, can you navigate and send route data to your TP? My Garmin chartplotter works pretty well, but I like the much bigger screen on my IPad and would prefer to navigate using it. Mike Riter SV Emma B On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 3:33 PM Peter Nyberg wrote: > Mike, > > I don't have a picture, but if look at a section of this video ( > https://youtu.be/y6p6uVo6xQ4) just after the 2 minute mark you can see > pretty clearly where I mounted my pivot pin. I found the fiberglass in this > area to be a pretty consistent thickness (in my case thin). > > All of my NMEA enable gizmos are wired to a multiplexor which broadcasts > wifi. I learned just enough about NMEA 0183 to set this up, and then > promptly forgot most of it. But as I recall, some kind of multiplexor is > needed (as opposed to a simple bus), because otherwise all of the 'talkers' > will just talk all over each other, and the 'listeners' will just hear > gibberish. > > --Peter > > > On 2022-03-04, at 13:53:34 EST, Mike Riter wrote: > > > > Well Whew! Thanks Roger and Peter. In keeping with the notion no 2 > Rhodes are > > created the same, I found the drop from the bottom of my fiberglass > tiller to be > > level with the center of the push rod is 4". And with both the 5" and > 3" > > extensions in place the rear pivot pin on the tiller pilot (square from > the > > tiller) just reaches the point where the curve from vertical to > horizontal on > > the starboard gunwale. Now I'm debating on whether to return the 3" > adapter and > > get a 4" adapter to add another inch or take advantage of what I'm > betting is > > thicker fiberglass at the current location. > > > > In anticipation of the wiring, I pulled out the switch panel and found a > tangle > > of unlabeled wires with multiple attachments to many of the switches. So > all > > that gets to be updated. Yaa. > > > > The wiring generates another question, I'm planning to tie this into my > Garmin > > chartplotter via NMEA 0183 and may add wind data to this one day as > well. Has > > anyone set up separate buss bars just for the NMEA? Any advice + or - on > that > > would be appreciated. > > > > Maybe I'm biased because I'm a R22 owner, but of the sailing and > cruising forums > > I follow, this is the friendliest and most helpful of them all. I really > > appreciate everyone here! > > > > Mike Riter > > > > SV Emma B > > > > > > > > > > > > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Fri Mar 4 17:58:22 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 14:58:22 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? - and NMEA 0183 Message-ID: Yes, I use my iPad for navigation. The app I have been using is SEAiq, because I like the way it handles routes and waypoints (I have hundreds of each, from the Bahamas and Key West to Maine. It's a fun way to go 'phantasy cruising'.). The app receives GPS and AIS data from my VHF, as well as depth, speed, and temp data from the thru-hull transducer. Route data can also be sent to the tiller pilot. Unfortunately, something is out of sync between SEAiq and the tiller pilot. If I point the boat directly at the next waypoint, and tell the tiller pilot to sail for that waypoint, it immediately veers off to port. If I leave it alone long enough, it will eventually correct, but I've just gotten into the habit of not using that feature. I don't know what's wrong, be clearly data is being sent from SEAiq to the tiller pilot, but apparently they are not quite speaking the same language. Lately, I've been playing around with the AquaMap app. It has features I like. This summer I'll probably see if it will play better with the tiller pilot. --Peter > On 2022-03-04, at 17:22:21 EST, Mike Riter wrote: > > I knew you had some mention of your tiller pilot in one of your videos, but I > mistakenly thought it was under your project headlines. Which is why I couldn't > find it. So thanks for the link Peter. > The hole for my tiller pin is going to be closer to the rolled edge than yours > is. So fingers crossed. Hey, if I have to tab something in because the gunwale > is thin, I'll have two surfaces to anchor to. > > The multiplexer makes sense. Thanks for that. Now we go down another rabbit > hole. Since it allows you to connect your IPad via wifi, can you navigate and > send route data to your TP? My Garmin chartplotter works pretty well, but I like > the much bigger screen on my IPad and would prefer to navigate using it. > > Mike Riter > SV Emma B > > > > From mwhipple59 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 23:06:08 2022 From: mwhipple59 at gmail.com (Mark Whipple) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 23:06:08 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Spring boat work - in Maine Message-ID: Well, it's only meteorological Spring (or so my wife tells me) and about 30 degrees in Boston but I'm thinking of warmer weather. I'm excited that my friend Tim Lackey (https://lackeysailing.com/) just started working on my Rhodes! I first met Tim around 2000 when I was looking to buy a 28' Pearson Triton. I eventually did buy a Triton yawl built in 1959. *Tikvah* spent five years in my driveway while I did a pretty thorough renovation - everything but painting the topsides and replacing the engine. I was partly inspired by Tim because he was doing a price-is-no-object renovation of another Triton, *Glissando*. (His email signature in those days: "What the boat wants, the boat gets!") Tim was a marine surveyor at the time. He documented the renovation process in extreme detail with numerous pictures on a web site ( https://www.triton381.com/). He eventually sold *Glissando* and bought another Triton, converting that one into a daysailer with a huge cockpit. These projects and others eventually led Tim to start a business of doing renovations of plastic classics. Tim's motto: One man, one boat at a time. He continues to document all the work he does on the boats people bring to him. If you'd like to watch the progress of the work he's doing for me, you can find the daily project logs here . Some of you may recall that when I bought my R22 a few years back, it came with a wheel in the cockpit, a self-tending jib and Hoyt boom on the bow, and a saildrive in the lazarette. I've removed them all and Tim is patching up the holes that were left behind. Then he will paint the hull for me. After so many years of doing all the work on my various boats by myself, I am thrilled to have someone else doing the work! Especially because I know it will come out better than I could have done. Also because while Tim's making progress on my boat, I'm spending lots of time on the couch recovering from foot surgery. Mark Boston, MA 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 09:24:00 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 08:24:00 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Spring boat work - in Maine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark, thanks for sharing this. It looks like Tim does great work and he does a thorough job documenting as well. I look forward to learning more from reading about the progress for Luna Mia! Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 10:06 PM Mark Whipple wrote: > Well, it's only meteorological Spring (or so my wife tells me) and about 30 > degrees in Boston but I'm thinking of warmer weather. I'm excited that my > friend Tim Lackey (https://lackeysailing.com/) just started working on my > Rhodes! > > I first met Tim around 2000 when I was looking to buy a 28' Pearson Triton. > I eventually did buy a Triton yawl built in 1959. *Tikvah* spent five years > in my driveway while I did a pretty thorough renovation - everything but > painting the topsides and replacing the engine. I was partly inspired by > Tim because he was doing a price-is-no-object renovation of another Triton, > *Glissando*. (His email signature in those days: "What the boat wants, the > boat gets!") Tim was a marine surveyor at the time. He documented the > renovation process in extreme detail with numerous pictures on a web site ( > https://www.triton381.com/). He eventually sold *Glissando* and bought > another Triton, converting that one into a daysailer with a huge cockpit. > These projects and others eventually led Tim to start a business of doing > renovations of plastic classics. Tim's motto: One man, one boat at a time. > He continues to document all the work he does on the boats people bring to > him. > > If you'd like to watch the progress of the work he's doing for me, you can > find the daily project logs here > . Some of you may recall > that > when I bought my R22 a few years back, it came with a wheel in the cockpit, > a self-tending jib and Hoyt boom on the bow, and a saildrive in the > lazarette. I've removed them all and Tim is patching up the holes that were > left behind. Then he will paint the hull for me. > > After so many years of doing all the work on my various boats by myself, I > am thrilled to have someone else doing the work! Especially because I know > it will come out better than I could have done. Also because while Tim's > making progress on my boat, I'm spending lots of time on the couch > recovering from foot surgery. > > Mark > > Boston, MA > 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* > From luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 12:00:44 2022 From: luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com (Luis Guzman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 12:00:44 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles Message-ID: <3B1E24B7-9FB3-44AE-8C49-E70359E8ACC6@gmail.com> Consult fro the Rhodes 22 Wisdom group. I have a single axle trailer that, if possible, I would like to convert to double axle. I?m playing on doing long trips, and I would feel more comfortable having the additional axle, but I do not have the money to buy a double axle trailer. Has anybody done this? Regards, Luis Guzm?n S/V Aquetxali Sent from my iPhone From tom.vanheule at intrinsicprograms.com Sat Mar 5 12:10:53 2022 From: tom.vanheule at intrinsicprograms.com (Tom Van Heule) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:10:53 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles In-Reply-To: <3B1E24B7-9FB3-44AE-8C49-E70359E8ACC6@gmail.com> References: <3B1E24B7-9FB3-44AE-8C49-E70359E8ACC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Devil's advocate, or just curious... Why not spend on beefy single and great tires instead of doubling up? My single axle did Oregon to Wisconsin in 2019 no problem. We did have a Duramax tow vehicle. I thought about moving the single back a few inches to help with things, but never finished approach analysis considerations. It doesn't tow as well with my grand Cherokee. Enjoy! On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 11:00 AM Luis Guzman wrote: > Consult fro the Rhodes 22 Wisdom group. > > I have a single axle trailer that, if possible, I would like to convert to > double axle. I?m playing on doing long trips, and I would feel more > comfortable having the additional axle, but I do not have the money to buy > a double axle trailer. > > Has anybody done this? > > > Regards, > > Luis Guzm?n > > S/V Aquetxali > > Sent from my iPhone From mark at whipplefamily.com Sat Mar 5 13:47:13 2022 From: mark at whipplefamily.com (Mark Whipple) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:47:13 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles In-Reply-To: <3B1E24B7-9FB3-44AE-8C49-E70359E8ACC6@gmail.com> References: <3B1E24B7-9FB3-44AE-8C49-E70359E8ACC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I spoke to the trailer shop I use about this, and we concluded that it did not make economic sense. In other words, the cost for the conversion would represent a substantial portion of the cost of a new trailer. The quote I got from Triad for a new trailer was around $5K and it would cost several thousand dollars to add a second axle to my trailer - which is already at least 20 years old. You'd be selling your old trailer to help defray the cost of a new one but I can't say what you can get for it. Your trailer may differ from mine. I have a Trailmaster that is likely from the same era as my boat (2000). It has heavy-duty fenders over the wheels that would have to be removed & rebuilt. A previous owner installed surge brakes and those would need to be disconnected and reinstalled, since you'd probably want to move the existing axle forward when adding a second behind it. If you're going to do it right you'd probably want electric brakes anyway. You'd need to buy a new axle, wheels, tires, springs, fenders plus anything that needs replacing on your existing axle set. Then there's the cost of the labor to move the old one forward and install the new one. Another thing they told me to consider: a dual axle trailer is much more sensitive to hitch height than a single axle. If you don't get the dual axle trailer to be level when on the hitch then one of the axles will be carrying less than half the weight. I wonder if there is any real-world data out there regarding the relative safety of single vs. dual axle on trailers like ours. It would be good to know what the true advantage is (if any) when looking at the costs. Hope that helps. Let us know if you decide to move forward. Mark Boston, MA 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 12:00 PM Luis Guzman wrote: > Consult fro the Rhodes 22 Wisdom group. > > I have a single axle trailer that, if possible, I would like to convert to > double axle. I?m playing on doing long trips, and I would feel more > comfortable having the additional axle, but I do not have the money to buy > a double axle trailer. > > Has anybody done this? > > > Regards, > > Luis Guzm?n > > S/V Aquetxali > > Sent from my iPhone From mike at traildesign.com Sat Mar 5 17:34:12 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 16:34:12 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? - and NMEA 0183 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, one (maybe) last question. What multiplexer are you using? The holes are drilled for the tiller pilot and the pivot pin and drop are mounted on the tiller. With everything mocked up, it fits. I took a cue from your video and drilled the mount holes for the drop bracket all the way through the tiller and through bolted it. I also countersunk the screw heads (again like you did) and it makes a very smooth, finished look. I do have to epoxy in a piece of wood up underneath the gunwale to support the rear pivot pin. The fiberglass there is thin like yours is. I have a 4" x 4" x1" piece of white oak for that. I shaped one side to more or less match the curve at the inside edge of the gunwale and epoxy coated the sides and bottom. Tomorrow after it sets up I'll epoxy that to the gunwale. On to the wiring! Mike Riter SV Emma B On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 4:58 PM Peter Nyberg wrote: > Yes, I use my iPad for navigation. The app I have been using is SEAiq, > because I like the way it handles routes and waypoints (I have hundreds of > each, from the Bahamas and Key West to Maine. It's a fun way to go > 'phantasy cruising'.). The app receives GPS and AIS data from my VHF, as > well as depth, speed, and temp data from the thru-hull transducer. > > Route data can also be sent to the tiller pilot. Unfortunately, something > is out of sync between SEAiq and the tiller pilot. If I point the boat > directly at the next waypoint, and tell the tiller pilot to sail for that > waypoint, it immediately veers off to port. If I leave it alone long > enough, it will eventually correct, but I've just gotten into the habit of > not using that feature. I don't know what's wrong, be clearly data is > being sent from SEAiq to the tiller pilot, but apparently they are not > quite speaking the same language. > > Lately, I've been playing around with the AquaMap app. It has features I > like. This summer I'll probably see if it will play better with the tiller > pilot. > > --Peter > > > On 2022-03-04, at 17:22:21 EST, Mike Riter wrote: > > > > I knew you had some mention of your tiller pilot in one of your videos, > but I > > mistakenly thought it was under your project headlines. Which is why I > couldn't > > find it. So thanks for the link Peter. > > The hole for my tiller pin is going to be closer to the rolled edge than > yours > > is. So fingers crossed. Hey, if I have to tab something in because the > gunwale > > is thin, I'll have two surfaces to anchor to. > > > > The multiplexer makes sense. Thanks for that. Now we go down another > rabbit > > hole. Since it allows you to connect your IPad via wifi, can you > navigate and > > send route data to your TP? My Garmin chartplotter works pretty well, > but I like > > the much bigger screen on my IPad and would prefer to navigate using it. > > > > Mike Riter > > SV Emma B > > > > > > > > > > From jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 06:52:43 2022 From: jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com (Jeff Smith Photo) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 06:52:43 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles Message-ID: When I asked Stan a few years ago about which he preferred, he thought it was a wash. Each had plusses and minuses. I own a dual axel and it works well, but is a bear to push around by hand. Single axles may be as bad, but I have no experience. The biggest downside to single axel is a blowout, so having the bearings, axle and tires in tip top shape is important. There is less weight with a single so the tow vehicle does not need to be as powerful. Best Regards Jeff Smith www.http://JeffSmithPhoto.Net 732-236-1368 From peter at sunnybeeches.com Sun Mar 6 11:07:50 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 08:07:50 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? - and NMEA 0183 Message-ID: Mike, The brand of multiplexer I installed is 'Brookhouse'. This was in the early days of NEMA-wifi technology, and the impression I got was this company was one guy working in his garage. It has always worked reliably, but doesn't appear to be available anymore. If you have a fiberglass tiller, be careful not to over tighten the bolts. My tiller appears to have a seam down the middle, and the flat head bolts can act like wedges pushing the two halves apart. My approach to straightening out the wiring and making it more accessible can be found in this video starting at about 6:30 : https://youtu.be/FsJeFTQnR6Q Peter Nyberg Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) > On 2022-03-05, at 17:34:12 EST, Mike Riter wrote: > > OK, one (maybe) last question. What multiplexer are you using? > > The holes are drilled for the tiller pilot and the pivot pin and drop are > mounted on the tiller. With everything mocked up, it fits. I took a cue from > your video and drilled the mount holes for the drop bracket all the way through > the tiller and through bolted it. I also countersunk the screw heads (again like > you did) and it makes a very smooth, finished look. I do have to epoxy in a > piece of wood up underneath the gunwale to support the rear pivot pin. The > fiberglass there is thin like yours is. I have a 4" x 4" x1" piece of white oak > for that. I shaped one side to more or less match the curve at the inside edge > of the gunwale and epoxy coated the sides and bottom. Tomorrow after it sets up > I'll epoxy that to the gunwale. > > On to the wiring! > > Mike Riter > SV Emma B > > > From mike at traildesign.com Sun Mar 6 13:47:25 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:47:25 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a single axle Triad trailer and I've had good luck with it. I'm based out of northeast GA. I also have a place in WI and have towed the boat a few times back and forth between the two places with no issues. We also go to S. FL every couple of years for a sailing vacation and tow the boat down with us. My local lake (Hartwell) is 45 min. away and I trailer sail on it. I like being able to sail on different bodies of water. All that preamble leads me up to expressing my humble opinion on the subject. My first impression When I got the boat from Stan was that a single axle trailer for what we do is insufficient. After using it for a few years and having no problem tow after tow, I'm pretty happy with it. I am not a big fan of the surge brakes and will likely change them to electric one day. I've gone through and replaced the wheel bearings and seals. The folks at Triad are great to work with for parts and questions. I have seven trailers that I use to move equipment to different job sites, 2 of them are single axle and neither tow as well as the Triad, even with smaller loads. Luis, I think you'll find that the single axle triad works just fine. Even for long trips. Please make sure your tow vehicle is up to the task. Mike Riter SV Emma B On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 5:52 AM Jeff Smith Photo wrote: > When I asked Stan a few years ago about which he preferred, he thought it > was a wash. Each had plusses and minuses. I own a dual axel and it works > well, but is a bear to push around by hand. Single axles may be as bad, but > I have no experience. The biggest downside to single axel is a blowout, so > having the bearings, axle and tires in tip top shape is important. > There is less weight with a single so the tow vehicle does not need to be > as powerful. > > Best Regards > Jeff Smith > www.http://JeffSmithPhoto.Net > 732-236-1368 > From mike at traildesign.com Sun Mar 6 14:01:48 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:01:48 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Tiller pilot - Am I overthinking this? - and NMEA 0183 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As always Peter, you are a wealth of knowledge. I just finished epoxying in the support piece after it sets, I think I'm going to add 2 screws through the gunwale and into the block as a belt and suspenders thing. I saw in your video how yours broke loose. The temp. fix was brilliant, but I'd rather not go there if I can help it. I've watched your wiring video a couple of times and while I'm ready to go that far with mine yet, there are some good ideas I can use from it. Thanks! Mike Riter SV Emma B On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 10:07 AM Peter Nyberg wrote: > Mike, > > The brand of multiplexer I installed is 'Brookhouse'. This was in the > early days of NEMA-wifi technology, and the impression I got was this > company was one guy working in his garage. It has always worked reliably, > but doesn't appear to be available anymore. > > If you have a fiberglass tiller, be careful not to over tighten the > bolts. My tiller appears to have a seam down the middle, and the flat head > bolts can act like wedges pushing the two halves apart. > > My approach to straightening out the wiring and making it more accessible > can be found in this video starting at about 6:30 : > https://youtu.be/FsJeFTQnR6Q > > Peter Nyberg > Coventry, CT > s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) > > > On 2022-03-05, at 17:34:12 EST, Mike Riter wrote: > > > > OK, one (maybe) last question. What multiplexer are you using? > > > > The holes are drilled for the tiller pilot and the pivot pin and drop > are > > mounted on the tiller. With everything mocked up, it fits. I took a cue > from > > your video and drilled the mount holes for the drop bracket all the way > through > > the tiller and through bolted it. I also countersunk the screw heads > (again like > > you did) and it makes a very smooth, finished look. I do have to epoxy > in a > > piece of wood up underneath the gunwale to support the rear pivot pin. > The > > fiberglass there is thin like yours is. I have a 4" x 4" x1" piece of > white oak > > for that. I shaped one side to more or less match the curve at the > inside edge > > of the gunwale and epoxy coated the sides and bottom. Tomorrow after it > sets up > > I'll epoxy that to the gunwale. > > > > On to the wiring! > > > > Mike Riter > > SV Emma B > > > > > > > > From sbauman369 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 06:26:12 2022 From: sbauman369 at gmail.com (Steve Bauman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 06:26:12 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles In-Reply-To: References: <3B1E24B7-9FB3-44AE-8C49-E70359E8ACC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a friend who had a tire blowout on a dual axle trailer and found himself stranded by the roadside because of the extreme imbalance. So having four tires instead of two may not reduce your chances of ending up on the roadside with a flat. Also, remember that a dual axle trailer is much more difficult to get to turn, especially by hand when trying to maneuver into a garage or something. I deal with that problem every year to maneuver my powerboat trailer into our garage. Steve Misty Anne On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 1:47 PM Mark Whipple wrote: > I spoke to the trailer shop I use about this, and we concluded that it did > not make economic sense. In other words, the cost for the conversion > would represent a substantial portion of the cost of a new trailer. The > quote I got from Triad for a new trailer was around $5K and it would cost > several thousand dollars to add a second axle to my trailer - which > is already at least 20 years old. You'd be selling your old trailer to help > defray the cost of a new one but I can't say what you can get for it. > > Your trailer may differ from mine. I have a Trailmaster that is likely from > the same era as my boat (2000). It has heavy-duty fenders over the wheels > that would have to be removed & rebuilt. A previous owner installed surge > brakes and those would need to be disconnected and reinstalled, since you'd > probably want to move the existing axle forward when adding a second behind > it. If you're going to do it right you'd probably want electric brakes > anyway. You'd need to buy a new axle, wheels, tires, springs, fenders plus > anything that needs replacing on your existing axle set. Then there's the > cost of the labor to move the old one forward and install the new one. > > Another thing they told me to consider: a dual axle trailer is much more > sensitive to hitch height than a single axle. If you don't get the dual > axle trailer to be level when on the hitch then one of the axles will be > carrying less than half the weight. > > I wonder if there is any real-world data out there regarding the relative > safety of single vs. dual axle on trailers like ours. It would be good to > know what the true advantage is (if any) when looking at the costs. > > Hope that helps. Let us know if you decide to move forward. > > Mark > > Boston, MA > 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* > > > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 12:00 PM Luis Guzman > wrote: > > > Consult fro the Rhodes 22 Wisdom group. > > > > I have a single axle trailer that, if possible, I would like to convert > to > > double axle. I?m playing on doing long trips, and I would feel more > > comfortable having the additional axle, but I do not have the money to > buy > > a double axle trailer. > > > > Has anybody done this? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Luis Guzm?n > > > > S/V Aquetxali > > > > Sent from my iPhone > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:19:46 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:19:46 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory Message-ID: Hi, My R22 was refurbished at the factory in 2013 and got new bottom paint at that time. I bought it from the prior owner, not GB. I need to have new bottom paint applied and the shop wanted to know what kind of bottom paint it already has. It is an ablative paint with a reddish/orange color. Does anyone happen to know what brand of bottom paint that is? Thanks, Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr From peter at sunnybeeches.com Mon Mar 7 16:09:15 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:09:15 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory Message-ID: Jesse, Silverheels was recycled by GB in 2016. When I took possession, I ask what paints had been used on the hull. The antifouling paint used was Pettit Trinidad 75. In my case, the color was black, but it was available in other colors, including red. BTW, above the waterline GB used Alexseal T5153 Flag Blue. HTH, --Peter > On 2022-03-07, at 15:19:46 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > > Hi, > > My R22 was refurbished at the factory in 2013 and got new bottom paint at that > time. I bought it from the prior owner, not GB. I need to have new bottom > paint applied and the shop wanted to know what kind of bottom paint it already > has. It is an ablative paint with a reddish/orange color. Does anyone happen > to know what brand of bottom paint that is? > > Thanks, > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:37:51 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:37:51 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter, thanks for your quick and detailed response. Thanks, Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:09 PM Peter Nyberg wrote: > Jesse, > > Silverheels was recycled by GB in 2016. When I took possession, I ask > what paints had been used on the hull. > > The antifouling paint used was Pettit Trinidad 75. In my case, the color > was black, but it was available in other colors, including red. > > BTW, above the waterline GB used Alexseal T5153 Flag Blue. > > HTH, > > --Peter > > > On 2022-03-07, at 15:19:46 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > My R22 was refurbished at the factory in 2013 and got new bottom paint > at that > > time. I bought it from the prior owner, not GB. I need to have new > bottom > > paint applied and the shop wanted to know what kind of bottom paint it > already > > has. It is an ablative paint with a reddish/orange color. Does anyone > happen > > to know what brand of bottom paint that is? > > > > Thanks, > > Jesse Shumaker > > S/V Zephyr > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:57:53 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:57:53 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A follow up question, is the Pettit Trinidad 75 an ablative paint? The shop was under the impression that the Trinidad 75 isn't ablative, but I'm pretty sure what I have is ablative based on the way it rubs off on bunks or when being scrubbed at the end of the season. Or, perhaps it's just because my bottom hasn't been painted in quite awhile that it's wearing thin. It's possible that a different kind of paint was used on mine. Thanks, Jesse On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:37 PM Jesse Shumaker < jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > Peter, thanks for your quick and detailed response. > > Thanks, > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:09 PM Peter Nyberg > wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> Silverheels was recycled by GB in 2016. When I took possession, I ask >> what paints had been used on the hull. >> >> The antifouling paint used was Pettit Trinidad 75. In my case, the color >> was black, but it was available in other colors, including red. >> >> BTW, above the waterline GB used Alexseal T5153 Flag Blue. >> >> HTH, >> >> --Peter >> >> > On 2022-03-07, at 15:19:46 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > My R22 was refurbished at the factory in 2013 and got new bottom paint >> at that >> > time. I bought it from the prior owner, not GB. I need to have new >> bottom >> > paint applied and the shop wanted to know what kind of bottom paint it >> already >> > has. It is an ablative paint with a reddish/orange color. Does anyone >> happen >> > to know what brand of bottom paint that is? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Jesse Shumaker >> > S/V Zephyr >> > >> >> From tom.vanheule at intrinsicprograms.com Mon Mar 7 18:41:03 2022 From: tom.vanheule at intrinsicprograms.com (Tom Van Heule) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:41:03 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What you said sums it up. I've heard all sorts of things were used, nothing "junk", but it varied. Accessible being a high priority. Like you said, maybe it was thin or, even, gone (as I have been suggested before). Is there a general rule when encountering the unknown previous paint job, other than blast it all and start over? I would probably do that as a point of order when considering to own it for a time to come regardless. (Media blast and do the full 7/9coat dance). As I am in a similar boat, and played with other distractions... Appreciate this thread! On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 4:58 PM Jesse Shumaker wrote: > A follow up question, is the Pettit Trinidad 75 an ablative paint? The > shop was under the impression that the Trinidad 75 isn't ablative, but I'm > pretty sure what I have is ablative based on the way it rubs off on bunks > or when being scrubbed at the end of the season. Or, perhaps it's just > because my bottom hasn't been painted in quite awhile that it's wearing > thin. It's possible that a different kind of paint was used on mine. > > Thanks, > Jesse > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:37 PM Jesse Shumaker < > jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Peter, thanks for your quick and detailed response. > > > > Thanks, > > Jesse Shumaker > > S/V Zephyr > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:09 PM Peter Nyberg > > wrote: > > > >> Jesse, > >> > >> Silverheels was recycled by GB in 2016. When I took possession, I ask > >> what paints had been used on the hull. > >> > >> The antifouling paint used was Pettit Trinidad 75. In my case, the > color > >> was black, but it was available in other colors, including red. > >> > >> BTW, above the waterline GB used Alexseal T5153 Flag Blue. > >> > >> HTH, > >> > >> --Peter > >> > >> > On 2022-03-07, at 15:19:46 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > My R22 was refurbished at the factory in 2013 and got new bottom paint > >> at that > >> > time. I bought it from the prior owner, not GB. I need to have new > >> bottom > >> > paint applied and the shop wanted to know what kind of bottom paint it > >> already > >> > has. It is an ablative paint with a reddish/orange color. Does > anyone > >> happen > >> > to know what brand of bottom paint that is? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Jesse Shumaker > >> > S/V Zephyr > >> > > >> > >> > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Mon Mar 7 22:02:02 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 19:02:02 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory Message-ID: The web page (https://pettitpaint.com/trinidad75) makes it pretty clear that it is a hard paint, not ablative. If yours rubs off, then it almost certainly is ablative, not just old or thin. --Peter > On 2022-03-07, at 17:57:53 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > > A follow up question, is the Pettit Trinidad 75 an ablative paint? The shop was > under the impression that the Trinidad 75 isn't ablative, but I'm pretty sure > what I have is ablative based on the way it rubs off on bunks or when being > scrubbed at the end of the season. Or, perhaps it's just because my bottom > hasn't been painted in quite awhile that it's wearing thin. It's possible that > a different kind of paint was used on mine. > > Thanks, > Jesse > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 22:40:50 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:40:50 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Tom and Peter for the additional info. I'll report back to the list with what I end up going with and how well it works. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:02 PM Peter Nyberg wrote: > The web page (https://pettitpaint.com/trinidad75) makes it pretty clear > that it is a hard paint, not ablative. If yours rubs off, then it almost > certainly is ablative, not just old or thin. > > --Peter > > > On 2022-03-07, at 17:57:53 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > > > > A follow up question, is the Pettit Trinidad 75 an ablative paint? The > shop was > > under the impression that the Trinidad 75 isn't ablative, but I'm pretty > sure > > what I have is ablative based on the way it rubs off on bunks or when > being > > scrubbed at the end of the season. Or, perhaps it's just because my > bottom > > hasn't been painted in quite awhile that it's wearing thin. It's > possible that > > a different kind of paint was used on mine. > > > > Thanks, > > Jesse > > > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 23:05:08 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:05:08 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects Message-ID: Hi everyone, I just wrapped up my offseason projects so I put together a recap in the attached PDF in case others might find it helpful. This will probably be my last season of big projects for awhile since I've had a chance to tailor the boat to my purposes over the first few seasons. As always, I'll have to wait until sailing season to see how the changes work out. This recap of projects covers updates to: - Electrical - Storage - Water system - Anchoring system - A few other minor projects I intended to produce a respectable wiring diagram but I haven't got around to that yet other than rough sketches that I used for planning. If you would find that helpful let me know and I'll try to pull that together. My boat work time is about up for now and I need to attend to other tasks. I'm counting down the days until the sailing season starts in May! Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Zephyr - Fall 2021 and Spring 2022 Projects.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1109730 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sea20 at verizon.net Tue Mar 8 06:45:06 2022 From: sea20 at verizon.net (Scott Andrews) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 06:45:06 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] bottom paint from the factory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings all, I am faced with bottom paint decisions also. A Practical Sailing article, ?bottom paint according to location? was helpful. Scott Andrews Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:41 PM, Tom Van Heule wrote: > > ?What you said sums it up. I've heard all sorts of things were used, > nothing "junk", but it varied. Accessible being a high priority. > > Like you said, maybe it was thin or, even, gone (as I have been suggested > before). > > Is there a general rule when encountering the unknown previous paint job, > other than blast it all and start over? > > I would probably do that as a point of order when considering to own it for > a time to come regardless. (Media blast and do the full 7/9coat dance). > > As I am in a similar boat, and played with other distractions... > Appreciate this thread! > > > >> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 4:58 PM Jesse Shumaker >> wrote: >> >> A follow up question, is the Pettit Trinidad 75 an ablative paint? The >> shop was under the impression that the Trinidad 75 isn't ablative, but I'm >> pretty sure what I have is ablative based on the way it rubs off on bunks >> or when being scrubbed at the end of the season. Or, perhaps it's just >> because my bottom hasn't been painted in quite awhile that it's wearing >> thin. It's possible that a different kind of paint was used on mine. >> >> Thanks, >> Jesse >> >> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:37 PM Jesse Shumaker < >> jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Peter, thanks for your quick and detailed response. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jesse Shumaker >>> S/V Zephyr >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 3:09 PM Peter Nyberg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jesse, >>>> >>>> Silverheels was recycled by GB in 2016. When I took possession, I ask >>>> what paints had been used on the hull. >>>> >>>> The antifouling paint used was Pettit Trinidad 75. In my case, the >> color >>>> was black, but it was available in other colors, including red. >>>> >>>> BTW, above the waterline GB used Alexseal T5153 Flag Blue. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>> >>>> --Peter >>>> >>>>> On 2022-03-07, at 15:19:46 EST, Jesse Shumaker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> My R22 was refurbished at the factory in 2013 and got new bottom paint >>>> at that >>>>> time. I bought it from the prior owner, not GB. I need to have new >>>> bottom >>>>> paint applied and the shop wanted to know what kind of bottom paint it >>>> already >>>>> has. It is an ablative paint with a reddish/orange color. Does >> anyone >>>> happen >>>>> to know what brand of bottom paint that is? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Jesse Shumaker >>>>> S/V Zephyr >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> From chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 10:28:23 2022 From: chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com (Chris Geankoplis) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 10:28:23 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow those are awesome projects presented if a brilliant manner. Thank you so much. I am finalizing the sale of Enosis but I know the new owner over on Greece would really appreciate the projects so I am sending the document over to him. Oh, and a 2nd copy to my son for our boat in Kansas. Chris Geankoplis Enosis (for now) On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:05 PM Jesse Shumaker < jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I just wrapped up my offseason projects so I put together a recap in the > attached PDF in case others might find it helpful. This will probably be > my last season of big projects for awhile since I've had a chance to tailor > the boat to my purposes over the first few seasons. As always, I'll have > to wait until sailing season to see how the changes work out. > > This recap of projects covers updates to: > > - Electrical > - Storage > - Water system > - Anchoring system > - A few other minor projects > > I intended to produce a respectable wiring diagram but I haven't got around > to that yet other than rough sketches that I used for planning. If you > would find that helpful let me know and I'll try to pull that together. My > boat work time is about up for now and I need to attend to other tasks. > I'm counting down the days until the sailing season starts in May! > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Zephyr - Fall 2021 and Spring 2022 Projects.pdf > Type: application/pdf > Size: 1109730 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220307/562eacbd/attachment.pdf > > > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Tue Mar 8 11:17:32 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 08:17:32 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects Message-ID: Jesse, Very nicely done, both the projects themselves, and the write up. I'm particularly interested in your switch to a LiFePO4 battery, and look forward to your report on your experience with it. One issue that I'm sure you are aware of, but didn't touch on is that the on-board battery management system (BMS) on these batteries can decide to stop accepting charging current. Most commonly, this would happen when the battery reaches a fully charged state. If the outboard is running, it would be the same as running it without a connection to a battery, which can damage the alternator (so I've read). Have you done something to manage this potential situation? --Peter From rnelson204 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 14:52:43 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (RODNEY BROWN) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 13:52:43 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? Message-ID: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick release option. Thanks in advance for the input. Rodney From sloopblueheron at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:06:47 2022 From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com (Rick Lange) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:06:47 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? In-Reply-To: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> References: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rodney, I have the plain one that extends and swivels. It is all you need. Regards, Rick Lange On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 2:52 PM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if > anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick > release option. Thanks in advance for the input. > > Rodney From rnelson204 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:08:31 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:08:31 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? In-Reply-To: References: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, does it have the quick connect or is it permanently mounted? Thx ? On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 14:07 Rick Lange wrote: > Hi Rodney, > > I have the plain one that extends and swivels. It is all you need. > > Regards, > > Rick Lange > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 2:52 PM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > > > Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if > > anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick > > release option. Thanks in advance for the input. > > > > Rodney > From sloopblueheron at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:10:20 2022 From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com (Rick Lange) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:10:20 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? In-Reply-To: References: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Permanent. The swivel bolt goes through the tiller top to bottom. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 3:08 PM Rodney Brown wrote: > Rick, does it have the quick connect or is it permanently mounted? Thx ? > > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 14:07 Rick Lange wrote: > > > Hi Rodney, > > > > I have the plain one that extends and swivels. It is all you need. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rick Lange > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 2:52 PM RODNEY BROWN > wrote: > > > > > Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if > > > anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the > quick > > > release option. Thanks in advance for the input. > > > > > > Rodney > > > From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:28:25 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (Michael McKay) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:28:25 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? In-Reply-To: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> References: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I installed one of those on my previous boat (San Juan 21) and it worked quite well. Michael McKay (630) 209-2054 (m) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2022, at 2:52 PM, RODNEY BROWN wrote: > > ?Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick release option. Thanks in advance for the input. > > Rodney From peter at sunnybeeches.com Tue Mar 8 15:29:22 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 12:29:22 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? Message-ID: Based on my experience, I would opt for the quick disconnect model with the advice to not leave the unit exposed to the elements when not in use. Peter Nyberg Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) > On 2022-03-08, at 14:52:43 EST, Rodney Brown wrote: > > Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if anyone > has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick release > option. Thanks in advance for the input. > > Rodney > From sea20 at verizon.net Tue Mar 8 16:00:18 2022 From: sea20 at verizon.net (Scott Andrews) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:00:18 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E2AACE9-F55B-486F-8BCD-ABBC161C6B5C@verizon.net> I have the same as Rick, it does fine. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2022, at 3:28 PM, Michael McKay wrote: > > ?I installed one of those on my previous boat (San Juan 21) and it worked quite well. > > Michael McKay > (630) 209-2054 (m) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 8, 2022, at 2:52 PM, RODNEY BROWN wrote: >> >> ?Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick release option. Thanks in advance for the input. >> >> Rodney From rnelson204 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:56:47 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (RODNEY BROWN) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:56:47 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C28D00F-B8DC-4F35-A039-B5E725E08189@gmail.com> That a hefty set of mods Jesse! Noticed in the pics that the head has been modified, looks like the folding door and midline bulked were removed, did you level the floor in the area as well? What make/model of toilet is that? Would love to learn more about that those mods. Thanks Rodney > On Mar 7, 2022, at 10:05 PM, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I just wrapped up my offseason projects so I put together a recap in the > attached PDF in case others might find it helpful. This will probably be > my last season of big projects for awhile since I've had a chance to tailor > the boat to my purposes over the first few seasons. As always, I'll have > to wait until sailing season to see how the changes work out. > > This recap of projects covers updates to: > > - Electrical > - Storage > - Water system > - Anchoring system > - A few other minor projects > > I intended to produce a respectable wiring diagram but I haven't got around > to that yet other than rough sketches that I used for planning. If you > would find that helpful let me know and I'll try to pull that together. My > boat work time is about up for now and I need to attend to other tasks. > I'm counting down the days until the sailing season starts in May! > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Zephyr - Fall 2021 and Spring 2022 Projects.pdf > Type: application/pdf > Size: 1109730 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From rnelson204 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 19:11:44 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (RODNEY BROWN) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 18:11:44 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Question on boom attachment point for vang Message-ID: <8CCC21CB-3ADD-491C-9FC2-1B9A2E94D443@gmail.com> Good evening everyone, looking for some input on installing the boom bail for my the new boom vang, specifically how fare back from the mast is ideal? Also wanted to give a shout out to Jay Friedland who I met through the FB group, he sent me some pics of his set up, and I had sail maker in Tulsa fabricate some similar straps in the picture. They?ll be attached to each side of anchor stepping plate on the through bolt. It will all be topped with a Harken 4:1 40mm Carbo boom vang system . Thanks for looking and sharing your thoughts. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 481E9D4C-8985-4171-BBEF-A5D098B96BF8_1_201_a.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3393934 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:45:20 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 20:45:20 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Chris. Congrats on selling Enosis - that must be bittersweet after all the adventures that you have been on together, but at least you have a big boat to call home and a R22 in Kansas. Please tell Nick I said hello and thanks for the idea for the LED strip. Jesse On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 9:28 AM Chris Geankoplis wrote: > Wow those are awesome projects presented if a brilliant manner. Thank you > so much. I am finalizing the sale of Enosis but I know the new owner over > on Greece would really appreciate the projects so I am sending the document > over to him. Oh, and a 2nd copy to my son for our boat in Kansas. > Chris Geankoplis > Enosis (for now) > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:05 PM Jesse Shumaker < > jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I just wrapped up my offseason projects so I put together a recap in the > > attached PDF in case others might find it helpful. This will probably be > > my last season of big projects for awhile since I've had a chance to > tailor > > the boat to my purposes over the first few seasons. As always, I'll have > > to wait until sailing season to see how the changes work out. > > > > This recap of projects covers updates to: > > > > - Electrical > > - Storage > > - Water system > > - Anchoring system > > - A few other minor projects > > > > I intended to produce a respectable wiring diagram but I haven't got > around > > to that yet other than rough sketches that I used for planning. If you > > would find that helpful let me know and I'll try to pull that together. > My > > boat work time is about up for now and I need to attend to other tasks. > > I'm counting down the days until the sailing season starts in May! > > > > Jesse Shumaker > > S/V Zephyr > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: Zephyr - Fall 2021 and Spring 2022 Projects.pdf > > Type: application/pdf > > Size: 1109730 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > > > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220307/562eacbd/attachment.pdf > > > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:50:03 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 20:50:03 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Peter, thanks for your input. I had looked into the issue you had mentioned when I was researching early on. Your question caused me to start rethinking that some more. I think it may be necessary to install an alternator projection device or an archdiode battery isolator that I could wire in a secondary small AGM battery simply to take the load in the scenario where the BMS disconnects from the Lithium. More to come on that... I'll report back. Thanks for your question. Jesse On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 10:17 AM Peter Nyberg wrote: > Jesse, > > Very nicely done, both the projects themselves, and the write up. I'm > particularly interested in your switch to a LiFePO4 battery, and look > forward to your report on your experience with it. > > One issue that I'm sure you are aware of, but didn't touch on is that the > on-board battery management system (BMS) on these batteries can decide to > stop accepting charging current. Most commonly, this would happen when the > battery reaches a fully charged state. If the outboard is running, it > would be the same as running it without a connection to a battery, which > can damage the alternator (so I've read). Have you done something to > manage this potential situation? > > --Peter > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:58:14 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 20:58:14 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects In-Reply-To: <2C28D00F-B8DC-4F35-A039-B5E725E08189@gmail.com> References: <2C28D00F-B8DC-4F35-A039-B5E725E08189@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rodney, it's my understanding that R22s came in both versions that have a traditional marine head and those that have a porta-potty (sometimes called a cassette toilet). Mine is the kind with the cassette toilet, which I assume came from the factory that way. I think mine is a Dometic brand which is used for campervans in addition to boats. I did add some tie downs to keep it extra secure since it can be top heavy when it is filled with clean water to flush with and the bottom portion is still empty - I guess you could call that "fresh" mode. I did end up adding another shelf (above the existing shelf that came from the factory) in order to take advantage of some of the space. The bulkhead and floor is the way it came from the factory, though I've mounted a number of things on both sides of the bulkhead. I hope that provides some context. There are a lot of R22 owners on this list with a lot more knowledge and history than I have, so if you have more specific questions about the different head options they could probably provide more detail. Jesse On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 5:56 PM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > That a hefty set of mods Jesse! Noticed in the pics that the head has been > modified, looks like the folding door and midline bulked were removed, did > you level the floor in the area as well? What make/model of toilet is > that? Would love to learn more about that those mods. > > > Thanks > > Rodney > > > > On Mar 7, 2022, at 10:05 PM, Jesse Shumaker < > jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I just wrapped up my offseason projects so I put together a recap in the > > attached PDF in case others might find it helpful. This will probably be > > my last season of big projects for awhile since I've had a chance to > tailor > > the boat to my purposes over the first few seasons. As always, I'll have > > to wait until sailing season to see how the changes work out. > > > > This recap of projects covers updates to: > > > > - Electrical > > - Storage > > - Water system > > - Anchoring system > > - A few other minor projects > > > > I intended to produce a respectable wiring diagram but I haven't got > around > > to that yet other than rough sketches that I used for planning. If you > > would find that helpful let me know and I'll try to pull that together. > My > > boat work time is about up for now and I need to attend to other tasks. > > I'm counting down the days until the sailing season starts in May! > > > > Jesse Shumaker > > S/V Zephyr > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: Zephyr - Fall 2021 and Spring 2022 Projects.pdf > > Type: application/pdf > > Size: 1109730 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220307/562eacbd/attachment.pdf > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:05:40 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:05:40 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Question on boom attachment point for vang In-Reply-To: <8CCC21CB-3ADD-491C-9FC2-1B9A2E94D443@gmail.com> References: <8CCC21CB-3ADD-491C-9FC2-1B9A2E94D443@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rodney, early on I added an eye so I could put on a boom vang when desired (only used with the pop top down). I haven't actually used it much, but here are some photos for reference. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 6:11 PM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > Good evening everyone, looking for some input on installing the boom bail > for my the new boom vang, specifically how fare back from the mast is > ideal? > > Also wanted to give a shout out to Jay Friedland who I met through the FB > group, he sent me some pics of his set up, and I had sail maker in Tulsa > fabricate some similar straps in the picture. They?ll be attached to each > side of anchor stepping plate on the through bolt. It will all be topped > with a Harken 4:1 40mm Carbo boom vang system . > > Thanks for looking and sharing your thoughts. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: 481E9D4C-8985-4171-BBEF-A5D098B96BF8_1_201_a.jpeg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 3393934 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220308/ad51e4d8/attachment.jpeg > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ZephyrVang1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 72473 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ZephyrVang2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 62142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:10:49 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:10:49 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Forespar Twist lock tiller: Any thoughts? In-Reply-To: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> References: <2413E309-F2F8-4940-9FE3-4506F139118E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rodney, I have the tiller extension that you're referring to and it works well for me. Since it's easy to disconnect, I stow in the lazarette when it's not in use since it should last longer out of the sun and rain. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 1:52 PM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > Hello gan, have the itch to add a tiller extension and was wondering if > anyone has experience/thoughts on the Forespar twist lock with the quick > release option. Thanks in advance for the input. > > Rodney From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:39:30 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:39:30 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Zephyr - Fall 2021 / Spring 2022 projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I dig a little deeper, it appears that it may be best to go to the outboard to a small starter AGM starter battery first. I have some more digging to do on this so I'll let you know what I settle on. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 8:50 PM Jesse Shumaker < jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Peter, thanks for your input. I had looked into the issue you had > mentioned when I was researching early on. Your question caused me to > start rethinking that some more. I think it may be necessary to install an > alternator projection device or an archdiode battery isolator that I could > wire in a secondary small AGM battery simply to take the load in the > scenario where the BMS disconnects from the Lithium. More to come on > that... I'll report back. Thanks for your question. > > Jesse > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 10:17 AM Peter Nyberg > wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> Very nicely done, both the projects themselves, and the write up. I'm >> particularly interested in your switch to a LiFePO4 battery, and look >> forward to your report on your experience with it. >> >> One issue that I'm sure you are aware of, but didn't touch on is that the >> on-board battery management system (BMS) on these batteries can decide to >> stop accepting charging current. Most commonly, this would happen when the >> battery reaches a fully charged state. If the outboard is running, it >> would be the same as running it without a connection to a battery, which >> can damage the alternator (so I've read). Have you done something to >> manage this potential situation? >> >> --Peter >> >> >> >> From zooba72 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 02:21:23 2022 From: zooba72 at hotmail.com (Jim Ignatowski) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 07:21:23 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Block Identification ? Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I?m finally revisiting my Rhodes sailboat project in hopes of getting it in the water this year ? Unfortunately I had to abandon my efforts last year due to Covid and other issues. I still have not attempted to step the mast and I?m trying to make certain the rigging is complete. I believe this block (Picture) attaches to the boom and it looks completely shot. Can someone identify the manufacturer ? I don?t believe it?s a Harken or Schaefer. Thank you 88? Rhodes ? Long Island, NY -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0883.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2032880 bytes Desc: IMG_0883.JPG URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0884.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1919795 bytes Desc: IMG_0884.JPG URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0885.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1831230 bytes Desc: IMG_0885.JPG URL: From Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com Wed Mar 9 09:20:46 2022 From: Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com (Roger Pihlaja Home) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 09:20:46 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Question on boom attachment point for vang In-Reply-To: <8CCC21CB-3ADD-491C-9FC2-1B9A2E94D443@gmail.com> References: <8CCC21CB-3ADD-491C-9FC2-1B9A2E94D443@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Rodney, You want the boom vang to make a ~45 deg angle relative to the mast. So, the distance from the boom gooseneck to the boom attachment point is the same as the distance from the mast step to the boom gooseneck. I used the boom in the lowest position for this measurement. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPad > On Mar 8, 2022, at 7:11 PM, RODNEY BROWN wrote: > > Good evening everyone, looking for some input on installing the boom bail for my the new boom vang, specifically how fare back from the mast is ideal? > > Also wanted to give a shout out to Jay Friedland who I met through the FB group, he sent me some pics of his set up, and I had sail maker in Tulsa fabricate some similar straps in the picture. They?ll be attached to each side of anchor stepping plate on the through bolt. It will all be topped with a Harken 4:1 40mm Carbo boom vang system . > > Thanks for looking and sharing your thoughts. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: 481E9D4C-8985-4171-BBEF-A5D098B96BF8_1_201_a.jpeg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 3393934 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From peter at sunnybeeches.com Wed Mar 9 11:02:28 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:02:28 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Block Identification ? Message-ID: Jim, It looks to me like that's a block for your jib sheet. It mounts on a rail attached to the gunnel outboard of the jib sheet winch. Naturally, you need two: port and starboard. It certainly looks well used, but if you have two and they still basically work, I wouldn't put replacing them at the top of my to-do list. When you do replace them, there's no need to match the current brand or even the current style. You mostly need to be sure the replacements will fit the track you have (probably 1"). Oh, and you don't need these to step the mast. Peter Nyberg Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2013) > On 2022-03-09, at 02:21:23 EST, Jim Ignatowski wrote: > > Hello Everyone, I?m finally revisiting my Rhodes sailboat project in hopes of > getting it in the water this year ? Unfortunately I had to abandon my efforts > last year due to Covid and other issues. > > I still have not attempted to step the mast and I?m trying to make certain the > rigging is complete. I believe this block (Picture) attaches to the boom and it > looks completely shot. Can someone identify the manufacturer ? I don?t > believe it?s a Harken or Schaefer. > > Thank you > From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Thu Mar 10 15:23:41 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:23:41 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Message-ID: Hello, Recommendations please for repair. At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. 1st-spot is 1.5x1" 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. Structurally the bow is sound. Is epoxy the best for repairing? Thanks in advance, Bob Lester Sunapee,NH ORION '84 From peter at sunnybeeches.com Thu Mar 10 15:46:44 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:46:44 -0800 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Message-ID: is it spring in New Hampshire already? That doesn't sound too bad (fortunately). I would think that epoxy with some sort of structural filler would be an appropriate choice for repair. Peter Nyberg Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) > On 2022-03-10, at 15:23:41 EST, C. Robert Lester wrote: > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, > rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > From keywestseccorp at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 16:12:18 2022 From: keywestseccorp at verizon.net (Mark West) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:12:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> used West epoxy 105 with good results? -----Original Message----- From: C. Robert Lester To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2022 3:23 pm Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Hello, Recommendations please for repair. At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. 1st-spot is 1.5x1" 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. Structurally the bow is sound. Is epoxy the best for repairing? Thanks in advance, Bob Lester Sunapee,NH ORION '84 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1262.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2238400 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Thu Mar 10 17:34:19 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 22:34:19 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> References: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Bob, The attached picture seems to be your foredeck, not your bow. How do you know the damaged bow is structurally sound? Have you done any ultrasound probes of the area? Anyway, please send a photo of the damage on the bow. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2022, at 4:12 PM, Mark West via Rhodes22-list wrote: > > ?used West epoxy 105 with good results > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. Robert Lester > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2022 3:23 pm > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_1262.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2238400 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From hnw555 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:51:17 2022 From: hnw555 at gmail.com (Hank) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:51:17 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think the picture was of another boat that Mark was showing where he repaired using West Systems Epoxy, not Bob's boat. On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 5:34 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Hi Bob, > > The attached picture seems to be your foredeck, not your bow. > > How do you know the damaged bow is structurally sound? Have you done any > ultrasound probes of the area? Anyway, please send a photo of the damage > on the bow. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 10, 2022, at 4:12 PM, Mark West via Rhodes22-list < > rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote: > > > > ?used West epoxy 105 with good results > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: C. Robert Lester > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > > Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2022 3:23 pm > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH > > > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some > shore, rocks in a storm. > > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > > > Structurally the bow is sound. > > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Bob Lester > > Sunapee,NH > > ORION '84 > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: IMG_1262.JPG > > Type: image/jpeg > > Size: 2238400 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220310%2Ff9921ade%2Fattachment.jpe&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf6f1ca681cb94a9a891808da02daaed5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637825435524376977%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=eRUdy4Ny%2BHnJs8gT6iSFBXq%2FGvs8cI39h0tiZeAsjOk%3D&reserved=0 > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:55:49 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:55:49 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> References: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wow Mark, that looks like a big job. Were you re-coring the deck? How did that go? Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 3:12 PM Mark West via Rhodes22-list < rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote: > used West epoxy 105 with good results > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. Robert Lester > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2022 3:23 pm > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some > shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_1262.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2238400 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220310/f9921ade/attachment.jpe > > > From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Thu Mar 10 18:41:19 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:41:19 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: <251214333.487458.1646946738696@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you all. I always appreciate the knowledge that is shared on this list. I will send a pic of damage this weekend (when I figure out how to). Not spring yet but I am lucky enough to store ORION in a garage for the winter. Bob Lester ORION '84 -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:56 PM To: Mark West ; The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Wow Mark, that looks like a big job. Were you re-coring the deck? How did that go? Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 3:12 PM Mark West via Rhodes22-list < rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote: > used West epoxy 105 with good results > > > -----Original Message----- > From: C. Robert Lester > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2022 3:23 pm > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some > shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: IMG_1262.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2238400 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhode > s22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220310%2Ff9921ad > e%2Fattachment.jpe&data=04%7C01%7Cc.robert.lester%40dartmouth.edu%7Cbe5293506b904fab816808da02e92705%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637825498071777408%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ybYmhlVCQwP%2FbNCuwGLHCQI9PLViwLRxK5RVrKfg2ao%3D&reserved=0 > > > From snstaum at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 19:22:57 2022 From: snstaum at gmail.com (Stephen Staum) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:22:57 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I fixed my '87 with a combination of fiberglass cloth and epoxy. You can get a kit from West Marine. The cloth will give it much more strength. *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore* *Needham, MA* On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 3:23 PM C. Robert Lester < C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu> wrote: > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some > shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Thu Mar 10 23:39:19 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:39:19 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011d01d83501$facf03e0$f06d0ba0$@ca> Bob: Depending n the damage you might need to grind out the area and rpair with cloth and filler. I use epoxy for everything as it is simply a better product but just keep in mind that epoxy adheres to polyester but polyester does not adhere well to epoxy. Graham Stewart gstewart8 at cogeco.ca -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of C. Robert Lester Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 3:24 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Hello, Recommendations please for repair. At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. 1st-spot is 1.5x1" 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. Structurally the bow is sound. Is epoxy the best for repairing? Thanks in advance, Bob Lester Sunapee,NH ORION '84 From gramille at tds.net Fri Mar 11 09:11:07 2022 From: gramille at tds.net (Graham Parker) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:11:07 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F334FB4-D4F8-4147-A69C-3235A0A82A8B@tds.net> Hi Bob, You already have great advice on your repair from this amazingly knowledgeable group. I just wanted to let you know that I live in Ludlow, Vermont - only 1 hour from Sunapee. I sail on Lake Champlain - an hour north of Ludlow, so if ever you want to get together we could have a Rhodes regatta of 2! Do you sail on Lake Sunapee? Graham Parker 'ss 00Sailin' > On Mar 10, 2022, at 15:23, C. Robert Lester wrote: > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Fri Mar 11 21:05:57 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 02:05:57 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: <9F334FB4-D4F8-4147-A69C-3235A0A82A8B@tds.net> References: <9F334FB4-D4F8-4147-A69C-3235A0A82A8B@tds.net> Message-ID: Yes indeed. I race our R22 in the Lake Sunapee Cruising Fleet. THIS is just plain educational and FUN! Great to from a "local" Rhodes sailor. Kindly connect with me at C.Robert.Lester at Dartmouth.edu We can talk sailing before the season of sailing. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Graham Parker Sent: Friday, March 11, 2022 9:11 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Hi Bob, You already have great advice on your repair from this amazingly knowledgeable group. I just wanted to let you know that I live in Ludlow, Vermont - only 1 hour from Sunapee. I sail on Lake Champlain - an hour north of Ludlow, so if ever you want to get together we could have a Rhodes regatta of 2! Do you sail on Lake Sunapee? Graham Parker 'ss 00Sailin' > On Mar 10, 2022, at 15:23, C. Robert Lester wrote: > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Sun Mar 13 19:12:56 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 23:12:56 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope this pic makes it through of the damage. Thank you all, Bob Lester ORION '84 -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of C. Robert Lester Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 3:24 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Hello, Recommendations please for repair. At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. 1st-spot is 1.5x1" 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. Structurally the bow is sound. Is epoxy the best for repairing? Thanks in advance, Bob Lester Sunapee,NH ORION '84 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG-20211213-WA0002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 110734 bytes Desc: IMG-20211213-WA0002.jpg URL: From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Sun Mar 13 19:35:17 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 23:35:17 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] ORION | Marc's Mast Hoist (pic) Message-ID: Who is Marc and is he on this list? On the web page The Rhodes 22 Owners' Group under pictures, our boat ORION is posted, with the caption, "Marc's mast hoist". Would love to connect with the original owners!! Bob Lester ORION '84 From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Sun Mar 13 22:05:44 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 02:05:44 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob, To my eye, it looks like you have at least delamination of the gel coat from the underlying FRP substrate for several inches back from the impact area. Is the port side similarly damaged? I would expect you need to grind off the gel coat back from the impact area until you get to a crack free interface between the gel coat/FRP substrate. Then, build it back up with epoxy, fiberglass cloth, and finish it off with paint. A fiberglass expert may be able to tell quite a bit about the extent of the damaged area by tapping with a mallet and careful listening. FRP does not bend and crumple like sheet metal in response to an impact. Instead, it tends to fail by brittle fracture of the bonds between the strands of fiberglass and the polymer matrix and delamination between layers, much of which is hidden. I guarantee you have a much bigger problem than your initial assessment. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2022, at 7:13 PM, C. Robert Lester wrote: > > ?I hope this pic makes it through of the damage. > Thank you all, > > Bob Lester > ORION '84 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of C. Robert Lester > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 3:24 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG-20211213-WA0002.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 110734 bytes > Desc: IMG-20211213-WA0002.jpg > URL: From mweisner at ebsmed.com Sun Mar 13 22:13:03 2022 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 22:13:03 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] ORION | Marc's Mast Hoist (pic) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01d83749$0a0e28b0$1e2a7a10$@ebsmed.com> Bob, The picture that you are looking at was taken about 20 years ago. Orion has had several owners since Marc Beroz. For more information, you may start at the following Rhodes 22 archived email posting: http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2005-July/024231.html The last posting: http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/2005-July/024237.html provides more info on how David Huckabee who purchase Orion from Marc may have resolved the issues. Unfortunately, as I read through the archive, I realized that several of the responders have passed away. At least we have the benefit of their written posts. I am not sure if Marc Beroz is still on the list. It appears that David Huckabee is still subscribed. Mike s/v Wind Lass ('91) Nissequogue River, NY -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of C. Robert Lester Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 7:35 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] ORION | Marc's Mast Hoist (pic) Who is Marc and is he on this list? On the web page The Rhodes 22 Owners' Group under pictures, our boat ORION is posted, with the caption, "Marc's mast hoist". Would love to connect with the original owners!! Bob Lester ORION '84 From luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 08:59:59 2022 From: luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com (Luis Guzman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 08:59:59 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale Message-ID: I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already have metal hips. It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new seal. I already have the material fir the seal. It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. I think My knees also need bearing replacement. It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. Asking 6k It is located in Bradenton, FL. If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat that provided many hours of pleasure. Sent from my iPhone From chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 18:42:12 2022 From: chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com (Chris Geankoplis) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:42:12 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold our Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the list! Chris Geankoplis Enosis On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman wrote: > I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was > planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already > have metal hips. > > It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the > last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new > seal. I already have the material fir the seal. > > It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to > charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. > > There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the > wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. > > The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. > I think My knees also need bearing replacement. > > It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. > > Asking 6k > > It is located in Bradenton, FL. > > If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com > > Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this > group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. > > Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat > that provided many hours of pleasure. > > Sent from my iPhone From luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 21:30:22 2022 From: luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com (Luis Guzman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 21:30:22 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <544407FA-9AAD-4AC2-8594-4F924C708381@gmail.com> Chris, I?ll stay on the list. Who knows, I?m hoping that my knees are fixable, and that I could buy another one later. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 14, 2022, at 6:50 PM, Chris Geankoplis wrote: > > ?See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold our > Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the > list! > Chris Geankoplis > Enosis > >> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman >> wrote: >> >> I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was >> planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already >> have metal hips. >> >> It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the >> last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new >> seal. I already have the material fir the seal. >> >> It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to >> charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. >> >> There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the >> wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. >> >> The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. >> I think My knees also need bearing replacement. >> >> It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. >> >> Asking 6k >> >> It is located in Bradenton, FL. >> >> If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com >> >> Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this >> group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. >> >> Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat >> that provided many hours of pleasure. >> >> Sent from my iPhone From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Tue Mar 15 05:44:58 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:44:58 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: <544407FA-9AAD-4AC2-8594-4F924C708381@gmail.com> References: <544407FA-9AAD-4AC2-8594-4F924C708381@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luis, I hope you stay on the list as well. Are you a candidate for knee replacements? I had my right knee replaced in November, 2021. Although the physical therapy afterwards was pretty brutal, I?m doing well now. In fact, I?m going to have my left knee replaced on March, 21, 2022. If all goes well, I should be good to go by mid May. That includes sailing and I certainly don?t plan to sell my Rhodes 22. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Luis Guzman Sent: Monday, March 14, 2022 6:30 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale Chris, I?ll stay on the list. Who knows, I?m hoping that my knees are fixable, and that I could buy another one later. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 14, 2022, at 6:50 PM, Chris Geankoplis wrote: > > ?See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold our > Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the > list! > Chris Geankoplis > Enosis > >> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman >> wrote: >> >> I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was >> planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already >> have metal hips. >> >> It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the >> last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new >> seal. I already have the material fir the seal. >> >> It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to >> charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. >> >> There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the >> wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. >> >> The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. >> I think My knees also need bearing replacement. >> >> It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. >> >> Asking 6k >> >> It is located in Bradenton, FL. >> >> If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com >> >> Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this >> group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. >> >> Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat >> that provided many hours of pleasure. >> >> Sent from my iPhone From luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 08:55:13 2022 From: luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com (Luis Guzman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 08:55:13 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36F77E27-81B6-45A2-B39A-144D9B390429@gmail.com> Roger, I will not leave the list. I enjoy all the very informative posts from everyone on the list. It seems that I have problems with both knees, and I already have metal hips. I think I need both knees done, but the MRI will tell. I certainly will look for another Rhodes after this knee ordeal is over. Right now, I do not have the transportation to take the boat to Mexico, and I cannot afford to pay storage. So, that adds to the decision to sell it now. I do have a place where to keep it in Mexico, but the problem is getting it there. The border situation is very unstable and dangerous. Otherwise, I would drive there myself. I thought about doing it, but the general refuses to let me do that. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 15, 2022, at 5:45 AM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > > ?Hi Luis, > > I hope you stay on the list as well. > > Are you a candidate for knee replacements? I had my right knee replaced in November, 2021. Although the physical therapy afterwards was pretty brutal, I?m doing well now. In fact, I?m going to have my left knee replaced on March, 21, 2022. If all goes well, I should be good to go by mid May. That includes sailing and I certainly don?t plan to sell my Rhodes 22. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Luis Guzman > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2022 6:30 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale > > Chris, > > I?ll stay on the list. Who knows, I?m hoping that my knees are fixable, and that I could buy another one later. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 14, 2022, at 6:50 PM, Chris Geankoplis wrote: >> >> ?See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold our >> Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the >> list! >> Chris Geankoplis >> Enosis >> >>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman >>> wrote: >>> >>> I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was >>> planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already >>> have metal hips. >>> >>> It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the >>> last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new >>> seal. I already have the material fir the seal. >>> >>> It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to >>> charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. >>> >>> There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the >>> wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. >>> >>> The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. >>> I think My knees also need bearing replacement. >>> >>> It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. >>> >>> Asking 6k >>> >>> It is located in Bradenton, FL. >>> >>> If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com >>> >>> Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this >>> group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. >>> >>> Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat >>> that provided many hours of pleasure. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone > From scott at hypnosisconnection.com Tue Mar 15 09:25:39 2022 From: scott at hypnosisconnection.com (Scott McFall) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:25:39 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Covers Message-ID: <596B8858-E2A6-449A-82BA-D66F52A138F7@hypnosisconnection.com> Boathouse Upholstery did my pop top cover They are in Florida 352-742-2957 I would recommend that if you have snaps already on your boat that you at the snaps yourself. It is the only way to get them to match if the boat isn?t at the shop. From chcarreon at cox.net Tue Mar 15 11:35:48 2022 From: chcarreon at cox.net (chuy carreon) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: <36F77E27-81B6-45A2-B39A-144D9B390429@gmail.com> References: <36F77E27-81B6-45A2-B39A-144D9B390429@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1500865626.529017.1647358548984@myemail.cox.net> Roger, Had both knees done one week apart when I was 66. Had a great surgeon. Had the replacements design for each leg. The surgery went very well. I can walk better now than I did at 45. By the way I am 77 now. Both knees are doing great. Work on the Rhodes when I can but it is a lot slower. Worst part was the therapy and not enough sleep, but it was best choice I made having it done one week apart. Too bad that you have to sell your Rhodes. They do grow on you. Best of luck and take care. Chuy Mathmath > On March 15, 2022 at 8:55 AM Luis Guzman wrote: > > > Roger, > > I will not leave the list. I enjoy all the very informative posts from everyone on the list. > > It seems that I have problems with both knees, and I already have metal hips. I think I need both knees done, but the MRI will tell. > > I certainly will look for another Rhodes after this knee ordeal is over. Right now, I do not have the transportation to take the boat to Mexico, and I cannot afford to pay storage. So, that adds to the decision to sell it now. I do have a place where to keep it in Mexico, but the problem is getting it there. The border situation is very unstable and dangerous. Otherwise, I would drive there myself. I thought about doing it, but the general refuses to let me do that. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 15, 2022, at 5:45 AM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > > > > ?Hi Luis, > > > > I hope you stay on the list as well. > > > > Are you a candidate for knee replacements? I had my right knee replaced in November, 2021. Although the physical therapy afterwards was pretty brutal, I?m doing well now. In fact, I?m going to have my left knee replaced on March, 21, 2022. If all goes well, I should be good to go by mid May. That includes sailing and I certainly don?t plan to sell my Rhodes 22. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > > > From: Luis Guzman > > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2022 6:30 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale > > > > Chris, > > > > I?ll stay on the list. Who knows, I?m hoping that my knees are fixable, and that I could buy another one later. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 14, 2022, at 6:50 PM, Chris Geankoplis wrote: > >> > >> ?See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold our > >> Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the > >> list! > >> Chris Geankoplis > >> Enosis > >> > >>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was > >>> planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already > >>> have metal hips. > >>> > >>> It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the > >>> last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new > >>> seal. I already have the material fir the seal. > >>> > >>> It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to > >>> charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. > >>> > >>> There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the > >>> wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. > >>> > >>> The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. > >>> I think My knees also need bearing replacement. > >>> > >>> It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. > >>> > >>> Asking 6k > >>> > >>> It is located in Bradenton, FL. > >>> > >>> If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com > >>> > >>> Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this > >>> group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. > >>> > >>> Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat > >>> that provided many hours of pleasure. > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > From mike at traildesign.com Tue Mar 15 12:03:29 2022 From: mike at traildesign.com (Mike Riter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:03:29 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Pop Top Covers In-Reply-To: <596B8858-E2A6-449A-82BA-D66F52A138F7@hypnosisconnection.com> References: <596B8858-E2A6-449A-82BA-D66F52A138F7@hypnosisconnection.com> Message-ID: Thanks for posting that info Scott. Would you mind elaborating a bit? Is it the same as the GB version? A photo would be great if you have one. Would you mind sharing the cost? I have been trying to rig up something for my Rhodes but it's not working out. So I'm going to bite the bullet and buy or have one made. Mike Riter SV Emma B On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:25 AM Scott McFall wrote: > Boathouse Upholstery did my pop top cover > They are in Florida > 352-742-2957 > > I would recommend that if you have snaps already on your boat that you at > the snaps yourself. It is the only way to get them to match if the boat > isn?t at the shop. > > From chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 12:08:49 2022 From: chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com (Chris Geankoplis) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:08:49 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: <544407FA-9AAD-4AC2-8594-4F924C708381@gmail.com> References: <544407FA-9AAD-4AC2-8594-4F924C708381@gmail.com> Message-ID: Glad to hear that Louis, we haven?t given up on sailing Rhodes as we have one with our son. Hopefully Alice?s knees get better or fixed too. Heck you still can go day sailing with friends on the big lake down there. Chris On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:30 PM Luis Guzman wrote: > Chris, > > I?ll stay on the list. Who knows, I?m hoping that my knees are fixable, > and that I could buy another one later. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 14, 2022, at 6:50 PM, Chris Geankoplis > wrote: > > > > ?See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold > our > > Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the > > list! > > Chris Geankoplis > > Enosis > > > >> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman > >> wrote: > >> > >> I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was > >> planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I > already > >> have metal hips. > >> > >> It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the > >> last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new > >> seal. I already have the material fir the seal. > >> > >> It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to > >> charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. > >> > >> There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the > >> wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. > >> > >> The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing > replacement. > >> I think My knees also need bearing replacement. > >> > >> It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. > >> > >> Asking 6k > >> > >> It is located in Bradenton, FL. > >> > >> If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com > >> > >> Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this > >> group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. > >> > >> Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat > >> that provided many hours of pleasure. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > From luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 12:15:42 2022 From: luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com (Luis Guzman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 12:15:42 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6602F77D-330E-41C1-8516-F35A75CE24A0@gmail.com> Thanks Chris Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:09 PM, Chris Geankoplis wrote: > > ?Glad to hear that Louis, we haven?t given up on sailing Rhodes as we have > one with our son. Hopefully Alice?s knees get better or fixed too. Heck you > still can go day sailing with friends on the big lake down there. > Chris > >> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:30 PM Luis Guzman >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> >> I?ll stay on the list. Who knows, I?m hoping that my knees are fixable, >> and that I could buy another one later. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 14, 2022, at 6:50 PM, Chris Geankoplis >> wrote: >>> >>> ?See Louis, sorry you aren?t able keep the boat in Mexico. Funny we sold >> our >>> Rhodes on Turkey because of my wife?s knees. Anyway, don?t drop off the >>> list! >>> Chris Geankoplis >>> Enosis >>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:00 AM Luis Guzman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was >>>> planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I >> already >>>> have metal hips. >>>> >>>> It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the >>>> last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new >>>> seal. I already have the material fir the seal. >>>> >>>> It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to >>>> charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. >>>> >>>> There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the >>>> wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. >>>> >>>> The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing >> replacement. >>>> I think My knees also need bearing replacement. >>>> >>>> It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. >>>> >>>> Asking 6k >>>> >>>> It is located in Bradenton, FL. >>>> >>>> If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com >>>> >>>> Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this >>>> group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. >>>> >>>> Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat >>>> that provided many hours of pleasure. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Tue Mar 15 12:55:50 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:55:50 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] ORION | Marc's Mast Hoist (pic) In-Reply-To: <002f01d83749$0a0e28b0$1e2a7a10$@ebsmed.com> References: <002f01d83749$0a0e28b0$1e2a7a10$@ebsmed.com> Message-ID: Mike, Thank you so much for passing along this information. In 2012, we purchased ORION from David and Peg Huckabee (2 of the nicest people you'll ever meet). So if Marc Beroz is out there (?) I would love to talk...especially if you were the first owner of ORION. Bob ORION ('84) Sunapee, NH -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Michael D. Weisner Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 10:13 PM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] ORION | Marc's Mast Hoist (pic) Bob, The picture that you are looking at was taken about 20 years ago. Orion has had several owners since Marc Beroz. For more information, you may start at the following Rhodes 22 archived email posting: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2005-July%2F024231.html&data=04%7C01%7Cc.robert.lester%40dartmouth.edu%7Cc5d3366c9f164be6bb4508da05603157%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637828208561382699%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=UQ4Ou2x9daB8RCl%2BVp1ltmRj7y2cJ3zcX3NxikJb3fA%3D&reserved=0 The last posting: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2005-July%2F024237.html&data=04%7C01%7Cc.robert.lester%40dartmouth.edu%7Cc5d3366c9f164be6bb4508da05603157%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637828208561382699%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=yZmKg6j2kFd%2FvHZ7qWF8r7l3A7vsKsSMarsIc6JGdus%3D&reserved=0 provides more info on how David Huckabee who purchase Orion from Marc may have resolved the issues. Unfortunately, as I read through the archive, I realized that several of the responders have passed away. At least we have the benefit of their written posts. I am not sure if Marc Beroz is still on the list. It appears that David Huckabee is still subscribed. Mike s/v Wind Lass ('91) Nissequogue River, NY -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of C. Robert Lester Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 7:35 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] ORION | Marc's Mast Hoist (pic) Who is Marc and is he on this list? On the web page The Rhodes 22 Owners' Group under pictures, our boat ORION is posted, with the caption, "Marc's mast hoist". Would love to connect with the original owners!! Bob Lester ORION '84 From C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu Tue Mar 15 13:03:22 2022 From: C.Robert.Lester at dartmouth.edu (C. Robert Lester) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:03:22 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Roger, I appreciate your input, thank you. Port side - NO impact, no damage. Any fiberglass experts on this list, near NH? Fay's Boat Yard in Gilford, NH will be my first phone call. Bob ORION ('84) Sunapee, NH -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 10:06 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH Bob, To my eye, it looks like you have at least delamination of the gel coat from the underlying FRP substrate for several inches back from the impact area. Is the port side similarly damaged? I would expect you need to grind off the gel coat back from the impact area until you get to a crack free interface between the gel coat/FRP substrate. Then, build it back up with epoxy, fiberglass cloth, and finish it off with paint. A fiberglass expert may be able to tell quite a bit about the extent of the damaged area by tapping with a mallet and careful listening. FRP does not bend and crumple like sheet metal in response to an impact. Instead, it tends to fail by brittle fracture of the bonds between the strands of fiberglass and the polymer matrix and delamination between layers, much of which is hidden. I guarantee you have a much bigger problem than your initial assessment. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2022, at 7:13 PM, C. Robert Lester wrote: > > ?I hope this pic makes it through of the damage. > Thank you all, > > Bob Lester > ORION '84 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > C. Robert Lester > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 3:24 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bow Repair | NH > > Hello, Recommendations please for repair. > > At waterline on the "point" of the bow, our Rhodes collided into some shore, rocks in a storm. > The damage was clear, once I pulled the boat out for winter storage. > > 1st-spot is 1.5x1" > 2nd- spot is half the size of the 1st spot. > > Structurally the bow is sound. > Is epoxy the best for repairing? > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Lester > Sunapee,NH > ORION '84 > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: IMG-20211213-WA0002.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 110734 bytes > Desc: IMG-20211213-WA0002.jpg > URL: From liznray15 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 14:14:40 2022 From: liznray15 at gmail.com (Liz and Ray) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 14:14:40 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 1995 Rhodes for sale Message-ID: "Yankee Clipper" is a cruise ready boat with many upgrades by General Boats. She is sitting on a Triad Trailer in Rutherfordton, NC. For a full inventory list and questions please reply to: liznray15 at gmail.com $15,000 From pbryanriley at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 20:27:27 2022 From: pbryanriley at gmail.com (PBR) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:27:27 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Trailer Axles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recommend you stick with what you have. I have a single axle and the 3500 lb axle is overloaded with my boat and stuff. With two college kids I have rented a 5 by 8 single and a 6 by 12 u-haul and towed with my f150 recently. The dual axle towed much nicer, less bounce, less drift. I will get the dual next time even if I don't need the volume. I published my boat and trailer weights to the list a few years ago, don't have them handy, but I don't know how any single axle could not be borderline overloaded. On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 1:48 PM Mike Riter wrote: > I have a single axle Triad trailer and I've had good luck with it. I'm > based out of northeast GA. I also have a place in WI and have towed the > boat a few times back and forth between the two places with no issues. We > also go to S. FL every couple of years for a sailing vacation and tow the > boat down with us. My local lake (Hartwell) is 45 min. away and I trailer > sail on it. I like being able to sail on different bodies of water. > > All that preamble leads me up to expressing my humble opinion on the > subject. My first impression When I got the boat from Stan was that a > single axle trailer for what we do is insufficient. After using it for a > few years and having no problem tow after tow, I'm pretty happy with it. I > am not a big fan of the surge brakes and will likely change them to > electric one day. I've gone through and replaced the wheel bearings and > seals. The folks at Triad are great to work with for parts and questions. I > have seven trailers that I use to move equipment to different job sites, 2 > of them are single axle and neither tow as well as the Triad, even with > smaller loads. > > Luis, I think you'll find that the single axle triad works just fine. Even > for long trips. Please make sure your tow vehicle is up to the task. > > > > Mike Riter > > SV Emma B > > > > On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 5:52 AM Jeff Smith Photo > wrote: > > > When I asked Stan a few years ago about which he preferred, he thought it > > was a wash. Each had plusses and minuses. I own a dual axel and it works > > well, but is a bear to push around by hand. Single axles may be as bad, > but > > I have no experience. The biggest downside to single axel is a blowout, > so > > having the bearings, axle and tires in tip top shape is important. > > There is less weight with a single so the tow vehicle does not need to be > > as powerful. > > > > Best Regards > > Jeff Smith > > www.http://JeffSmithPhoto.Net > > 732-236-1368 > > > From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 13:49:22 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 13:49:22 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Message-ID: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Hi All, Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through about 100-120o. Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. Thanks, Mike McKay s/v Liber (2006/2018) Allatoona Lake Acworth, GA From rnelson204 at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 18:45:17 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (RODNEY BROWN) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:45:17 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] New Boom Vang Installed Message-ID: First, and foremost, I huge shout out to Jay Friedland from the Facebook Rhodes group. I was looking at a pic he had posted and noticed he was running a Boom Vang. A few PM?s and text?s later, he had sent me some pics of his set up, which I attempted to replicate. I had the straps sewn up by Kerr Sails in Tulsa. I?ll be taking her out this weekend. to try the new rig out. Also, thanks to those who provided advise inan earlier thread regarding installation considerations. Pics are in the link below: https://arclight.zenfolio.com/p610223061 From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 18:56:18 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:56:18 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] New Boom Vang Installed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks good Rodney! Please let us know how that works out. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 5:45 PM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > First, and foremost, I huge shout out to Jay Friedland from the Facebook > Rhodes group. I was looking at a pic he had posted and noticed he was > running a Boom Vang. A few PM?s and text?s later, he had sent me some pics > of his set up, which I attempted to replicate. I had the straps sewn up by > Kerr Sails in Tulsa. I?ll be taking her out this weekend. to try the new > rig out. Also, thanks to those who provided advise inan earlier thread > regarding installation considerations. > > Pics are in the link below: > > > > https://arclight.zenfolio.com/p610223061 < > https://arclight.zenfolio.com/p610223061> > > > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Fri Mar 18 22:32:20 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:32:20 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, A couple of things to check: 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. Hopefully, these suggestions help. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus > on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I > do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been > routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through > about 100-120o. > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the > inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly > at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points > of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to > wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will > retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives > but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and > probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark > (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control > the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > Thanks, > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > From snstaum at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 09:54:14 2022 From: snstaum at gmail.com (Stephen Staum) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 09:54:14 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Roger, you are the best for technical advice. I thank you on behalf of all the Rhodies who I am sure always enjoy your responses. *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore (formerly Carol Lee 2)* *Needham, MA* On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:32 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to > center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t > too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is > tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail > shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. > Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension > in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing > dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather > helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. > ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > ?Hi All, > > > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > focus > > on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for > fun, I > > do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > > particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for > me. > > > > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > been > > routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > > limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack > through > > about 100-120o. > > > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > the > > inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > significantly > > at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind > points > > of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to > > wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this > will > > retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > alternatives > > but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets > and > > probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a > mark > > (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to > control > > the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mike McKay > > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > Allatoona Lake > > Acworth, GA > > > > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Sun Mar 20 08:46:31 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 12:46:31 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilbrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, A couple of things to check: 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. Hopefully, these suggestions help. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus > on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I > do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been > routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through > about 100-120o. > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the > inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly > at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points > of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to > wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will > retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives > but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and > probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark > (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control > the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > Thanks, > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Sun Mar 20 10:36:12 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:36:12 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> Greetings all - One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the force of the sails. Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance your rig is a non-starter. Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilbrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, A couple of things to check: 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. Hopefully, these suggestions help. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail > for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more > competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I > can only tack through about 100-120o. > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on > some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me use > my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am > partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second set > of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch between > them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those options > eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > Thanks, > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > From snstaum at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 11:15:06 2022 From: snstaum at gmail.com (Stephen Staum) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 11:15:06 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: Dennis that was a great comment. In addition to performance, I noticed years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the boat sat stern low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill causing the bow low condition). It never filled on the mooring as the boat normally sits with the bow lower. Where are you from Dennis? *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore* *Needham, MA* On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely wrote: > Greetings all - > One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow of > the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the force of > the sails. > Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the sail, > mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That lateral > push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's also countered > by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far out of the water or > the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance your rig is a > non-starter. > Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is riding > high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you won't be able > to get the center of effort (the place where the force of the wind pushes > your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot on the keel where the > water resists force from the wind). > The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. > Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) > Dennis McNeely > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a > close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take > note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF > mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a > close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You > should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep > reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. > I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the > wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much > rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of > why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just > naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards > weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of > effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at > full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the > mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig > is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for > neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the > helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply > center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength > builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and > weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback > thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the > mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. > Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of > drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, > the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway > is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work > together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to > center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t > too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is > tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail > shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. > Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension > in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing > dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather > helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. > ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > ?Hi All, > > > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > > focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail > > for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more > > competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to > windward very well for me. > > > > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > > been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I > > can only tack through about 100-120o. > > > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > > the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > > significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on > > some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me use > > my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am > > partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker > pole on downwind legs. > > > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second set > > of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch between > > them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those options > > eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the > jib cars. > > > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mike McKay > > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > Allatoona Lake > > Acworth, GA > > > > > > > From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Sun Mar 20 11:51:20 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 11:51:20 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: <001301d83c72$587bdb40$097391c0$@site-solutions.com> Salute Stephen - I'm on an island in the Detroit River - in Gibraltar, Michigan. I really enjoyed my Rhodes 22, but then I met a lady who didn't deal well with the boat when heeling - so now we have a trawler and I sail a pair of Detroit Diesels. A bit of a bummer, but I'm still out on the water, and she's happy with it! Dennis McNeely -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Stephen Staum Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:15 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Dennis that was a great comment. In addition to performance, I noticed years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the boat sat stern low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill causing the bow low condition). It never filled on the mooring as the boat normally sits with the bow lower. Where are you from Dennis? *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore* *Needham, MA* On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely wrote: > Greetings all - > One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow > of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the > force of the sails. > Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the > sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That > lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's > also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far > out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance > your rig is a non-starter. > Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is > riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you > won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force > of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot > on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). > The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. > Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish > a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the > IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. > Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as > possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or > even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. > I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. > As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter > how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into > the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the > heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter > this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This > moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. > You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep > the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the > rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned > for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though > the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows > to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the > wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin > to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now > getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets > to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. > Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing > ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is > centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, > centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for > Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler > to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there > isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out > haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with > mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. > Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big > sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very > slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. > ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > ?Hi All, > > > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting > > to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly > > sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more > > competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to > windward very well for me. > > > > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I > > have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, > > I can only tack through about 100-120o. > > > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds > > and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > > significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on > > some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me > > use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am > > partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a > > whisker > pole on downwind legs. > > > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second > > set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch > > between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those > > options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the > > clew with the > jib cars. > > > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you > > have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mike McKay > > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > Allatoona Lake > > Acworth, GA > > > > > > > From snstaum at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 13:13:07 2022 From: snstaum at gmail.com (Stephen Staum) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:13:07 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <001301d83c72$587bdb40$097391c0$@site-solutions.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> <001301d83c72$587bdb40$097391c0$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: Thanks Dennis. My wife's first comment when I took her sailing in 2002 on a Pearson 26 (which has a full heavy keel) was: This is very nice but does it have to tilt like this? I knew I was in trouble. The next year we got our first Rhodes 22, an '87 with IMF. Needless to say, it is far more tender than the Pearson 26 (which was a club boat) so I learned to reef early and often. We are now on our 3rd Rhodes. Last year we bought the s/v Pinafore, a '90 that was refurbed by Stan in 2016 and sold our beloved Carol Lee 2. The CL2 was an '83 that I converted to an IMF main using the mast salvaged from the Carol Lee which swamped and turtled in a hurricane in 2011 and was totaled by Boat US Insurance. The Pinafore has the fully enclosed head with flush toilet instead of the porta potti, electric motor lift to save my old back and a 2016 (very quiet) 4 stroke Evinrude outboard to make motoring to and from the mooring far more pleasant than our old (but very reliable) screaming 2 stroke. Also worth mentioning, my wife Carol does not swim well and is terrified of the water. I bought her an offshore automatic inflatable life vest when we first started and she has sailed with me almost every weekend since. The little boat is our on-the-water summer home. We often sail with the Genoa (now a 130) only and I even reef that if the wind gusts get over 10 knots. We survived a sudden squall 2 years ago with 70 mph winds and 5 foot seas! I was tethered at the helm with Carol in the cabin with the pop top down. It was terrifying but the seaworthiness of the Rhodes 22 (with some credit to the idiot at the helm) carried the day. Carol even came back and sailed with me the following weekend! So Dennis, if you want to give the Rhodes another try, come on out to Massachusetts this season and sail with us on the Pinafore. I don't know if I'll get it together but I am scheduled to launch the first week in May and the launch service continues 7 days a week from 8 am to 9 pm until October 31. We sail out of the Hingham Shipyard Marina which leads to nicely protected waters and the lovely Boston Harbor Islands. Best weather is from July through September. Let me know if and when you want to come. *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore* *Needham, MA* On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM Dennis McNeely wrote: > Salute Stephen - > I'm on an island in the Detroit River - in Gibraltar, Michigan. I really > enjoyed my Rhodes 22, but then I met a lady who didn't deal well with the > boat when heeling - so now we have a trawler and I sail a pair of Detroit > Diesels. A bit of a bummer, but I'm still out on the water, and she's happy > with it! > Dennis McNeely > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > Stephen Staum > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:15 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Dennis that was a great comment. In addition to performance, I noticed > years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the boat sat stern > low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill causing the bow low > condition). It never filled on the mooring as the boat normally sits with > the bow lower. > Where are you from Dennis? > > > *Thanks and Stay Well,* > > *Stephen Staum* > *s/v Pinafore* > > *Needham, MA* > > > > On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely < > mcneelyd at site-solutions.com> > wrote: > > > Greetings all - > > One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow > > of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the > > force of the sails. > > Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the > > sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That > > lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's > > also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far > > out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance > > your rig is a non-starter. > > Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is > > riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you > > won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force > > of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot > > on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). > > The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. > > Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > > ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > > > Mike, > > > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > > Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish > > a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > > Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the > > IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. > > Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as > > possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or > > even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated > all the weather helm. > > > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. > > I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. > > As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter > > how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into > > the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the > > heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter > > this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This > > moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. > > You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep > > the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the > helm. > > > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the > > rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned > > for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though > > the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows > > to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the > > wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin > > to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now > > getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets > > to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take > the pressure off the tiller. > > Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > > amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing > > ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is > > centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, > > centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required > lift for the boat to be able to point. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > > > Sent from Mail for > > Windows > > > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > > > Mike, > > > > A couple of things to check: > > > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler > > to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there > > isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out > > haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with > > mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is > possible. > > > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > > takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. > > Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > > needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > > efficient slot with the mainsail. > > > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > > tension in the standing rigging. > > > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big > > sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very > > slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the > mast rake angle. > > ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > > weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > ?Hi All, > > > > > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting > > > to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly > > > sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more > > > competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to > > windward very well for me. > > > > > > > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I > > > have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > > > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, > > > I can only tack through about 100-120o. > > > > > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds > > > and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > > > significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on > > > some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me > > > use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am > > > partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a > > > whisker > > pole on downwind legs. > > > > > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > > > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second > > > set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch > > > between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those > > > options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the > > > clew with the > > jib cars. > > > > > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you > > > have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Mike McKay > > > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > > Allatoona Lake > > > Acworth, GA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Sun Mar 20 13:14:19 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 17:14:19 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: Hi Dennis, When I first got S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, I did some experiments with my outboard motor, a stopwatch, and a measured mile on Sanford Lake where I live. Specifically, I was trying to determine what the ?best? fore/aft trim was. I moved ballast around to cause the boat to be 10 degrees down by the bow, level on the waterline, and 10 degrees down by the stern. I had a graduated cylinder rigged up to measure fuel consumption and an accurate digital tach so I could reproduce the same engine RPM?s. I choose the engine RPM to yield ~5 MPH to simulate sailing fast, so the effects of hull form wave making would be in the same range as sailing. I made repeated runs over the measured mile at slightly different engine RPM?s until I found the engine throttle setting that yielded 5 MPH (actually a time of 720 sec over the measured mile with a running start) at each fore/aft trim setting and then measured the fuel consumption. I did the experiments on a calm day when there was no other boat traffic and my lake has no currents. I was trying to separate out drag from all the other factors, measured in terms of small differences in fuel consumption. What I found was; down by the bow fore/aft trim was slightly better than level on the waterline and both were better than down by the stern. I think it?s a question of drag. Think about the hull shape behind the shoal draft keel back to the transom. You want this part of the hull to smoothly direct the flow coming off the keel back to merge with the surrounding water. When the hull is down by the stern, it acts like a set of landing flaps on an airplane wing - lots of drag. The difference between 10 degrees down by the bow to 10 degrees down by the stern is about 3% more fuel consumption and, I presume, that much more drag. However, there is a big caveat to this experiment. In waves, the boat depends on having sufficient reserve floatation in the bow to be able to punch thru waves. Without this reserve floatation, the bow may submarine and you are in danger of pitchpoling, definitely the start of a bad day on the water! But, for racing, especially on smooth water, slightly bow down trim is faster. Yes, I know I?m a nerd! But, a guy should be able to play with his toys, right? Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Dennis McNeely Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 7:36 AM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Greetings all - One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the force of the sails. Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance your rig is a non-starter. Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilbrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, A couple of things to check: 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. Hopefully, these suggestions help. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail > for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more > competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I > can only tack through about 100-120o. > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on > some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me use > my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am > partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second set > of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch between > them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those options > eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > Thanks, > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Sun Mar 20 18:56:35 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 18:56:35 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: <004e01d83cad$c0b11870$42134950$@site-solutions.com> I like the name of your boat Roger. It fits well with the discussion at hand. Earlier, I mentioned it's good to keep the bow of the boat down far enough to get the CE (center of effort) just aft of the CR (center of resistance) to make your boat head up if things get interesting - say for instance, if you're hard on the wind and it suddenly gusts and tries to knock you down. The fact of the matter is that with boats as small as our Rhodes, all it takes is for someone to come up out of the cabin and into the cockpit to throw all our elaborate weight-balance calculations into a cocked hat. Dynamic Equilibrium indeed! Still, it's fun to play with our toys, as you mentioned ;) Dennis S/V Magic Moments M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:14 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Hi Dennis, When I first got S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, I did some experiments with my outboard motor, a stopwatch, and a measured mile on Sanford Lake where I live. Specifically, I was trying to determine what the ?best? fore/aft trim was. I moved ballast around to cause the boat to be 10 degrees down by the bow, level on the waterline, and 10 degrees down by the stern. I had a graduated cylinder rigged up to measure fuel consumption and an accurate digital tach so I could reproduce the same engine RPM?s. I choose the engine RPM to yield ~5 MPH to simulate sailing fast, so the effects of hull form wave making would be in the same range as sailing. I made repeated runs over the measured mile at slightly different engine RPM?s until I found the engine throttle setting that yielded 5 MPH (actually a time of 720 sec over the measured mile with a running start) at each fore/aft trim setting and then measured the fuel consumption. I did the experiments on a calm day when there was no other boat traffic and my lake has no currents. I was trying to separate out drag from all the other factors, measured in terms of small differences in fuel consumption. What I found was; down by the bow fore/aft trim was slightly better than level on the waterline and both were better than down by the stern. I think it?s a question of drag. Think about the hull shape behind the shoal draft keel back to the transom. You want this part of the hull to smoothly direct the flow coming off the keel back to merge with the surrounding water. When the hull is down by the stern, it acts like a set of landing flaps on an airplane wing - lots of drag. The difference between 10 degrees down by the bow to 10 degrees down by the stern is about 3% more fuel consumption and, I presume, that much more drag. However, there is a big caveat to this experiment. In waves, the boat depends on having sufficient reserve floatation in the bow to be able to punch thru waves. Without this reserve floatation, the bow may submarine and you are in danger of pitchpoling, definitely the start of a bad day on the water! But, for racing, especially on smooth water, slightly bow down trim is faster. Yes, I know I?m a nerd! But, a guy should be able to play with his toys, right? Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Dennis McNeely Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 7:36 AM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Greetings all - One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the force of the sails. Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance your rig is a non-starter. Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilbrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, A couple of things to check: 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. Hopefully, these suggestions help. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail > for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more > competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I > can only tack through about 100-120o. > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on > some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me use > my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am > partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second set > of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch between > them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those options > eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > Thanks, > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > From rodellner at mac.com Sun Mar 20 19:48:20 2022 From: rodellner at mac.com (Rod Ellner) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 17:48:20 -0600 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <004e01d83cad$c0b11870$42134950$@site-solutions.com> References: <004e01d83cad$c0b11870$42134950$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: <4A0A7C30-1E22-49EC-84C6-5DD002F8AC9F@mac.com> Dennis et al When in Wi on St Croix River, there was a sailboat named Daydream Believer???.the dinghy, also named??Homecoming Queen! Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 20, 2022, at 4:56 PM, Dennis McNeely wrote: > > ?I like the name of your boat Roger. It fits well with the discussion at hand. > Earlier, I mentioned it's good to keep the bow of the boat down far enough to get the CE (center of effort) just aft of the CR (center of resistance) to make your boat head up if things get interesting - say for instance, if you're hard on the wind and it suddenly gusts and tries to knock you down. > The fact of the matter is that with boats as small as our Rhodes, all it takes is for someone to come up out of the cabin and into the cockpit to throw all our elaborate weight-balance calculations into a cocked hat. Dynamic Equilibrium indeed! > Still, it's fun to play with our toys, as you mentioned ;) > > Dennis > S/V Magic Moments > M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel > ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:14 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Hi Dennis, > > When I first got S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, I did some experiments with my outboard motor, a stopwatch, and a measured mile on Sanford Lake where I live. Specifically, I was trying to determine what the ?best? fore/aft trim was. I moved ballast around to cause the boat to be 10 degrees down by the bow, level on the waterline, and 10 degrees down by the stern. I had a graduated cylinder rigged up to measure fuel consumption and an accurate digital tach so I could reproduce the same engine RPM?s. I choose the engine RPM to yield ~5 MPH to simulate sailing fast, so the effects of hull form wave making would be in the same range as sailing. I made repeated runs over the measured mile at slightly different engine RPM?s until I found the engine throttle setting that yielded 5 MPH (actually a time of 720 sec over the measured mile with a running start) at each fore/aft trim setting and then measured the fuel consumption. I did the experiments on a calm day when there was no other boat traffic and my lake has no currents. I was trying to separate out drag from all the other factors, measured in terms of small differences in fuel consumption. What I found was; down by the bow fore/aft trim was slightly better than level on the waterline and both were better than down by the stern. > > I think it?s a question of drag. Think about the hull shape behind the shoal draft keel back to the transom. You want this part of the hull to smoothly direct the flow coming off the keel back to merge with the surrounding water. When the hull is down by the stern, it acts like a set of landing flaps on an airplane wing - lots of drag. The difference between 10 degrees down by the bow to 10 degrees down by the stern is about 3% more fuel consumption and, I presume, that much more drag. > > However, there is a big caveat to this experiment. In waves, the boat depends on having sufficient reserve floatation in the bow to be able to punch thru waves. Without this reserve floatation, the bow may submarine and you are in danger of pitchpoling, definitely the start of a bad day on the water! But, for racing, especially on smooth water, slightly bow down trim is faster. > > Yes, I know I?m a nerd! But, a guy should be able to play with his toys, right? > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Dennis McNeely > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 7:36 AM > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Greetings all - > One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the force of the sails. > Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance your rig is a non-starter. > Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). > The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. > Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to >> focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail >> for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >> can only tack through about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and >> the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me use >> my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second set >> of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch between >> them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those options >> eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > > From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Sun Mar 20 20:13:18 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:13:18 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <000001d83c67$d9c0d120$8d427360$@site-solutions.com> <001301d83c72$587bdb40$097391c0$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: <005801d83cb8$7873e5a0$695bb0e0$@site-solutions.com> Thanks for the invitation Stephen! We still have Magic Moments, our '86 Rhodes 22, but it has been spending most of its time hanging in our boat lift. I started some galley retrofits in an effort to interest Sandi in sailing, but it was not to be, so now I work on the boat from time to time, and when the wind is right for a broad reach over to Canada and back I'll drop her in the water and head out. I still love the magic moment when I silence the motor and the wind begins to drive the boat. But... the trawler presents other opportunities for Sandi and I, and will better deal with some of Mother Nature's silliness when she blows up 4 - 6 foot waves on the lake with little notice. And so I lurk here on DaList - sailing vicariously with all of you! Dennis S/V Magic Moments M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Stephen Staum Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:13 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Thanks Dennis. My wife's first comment when I took her sailing in 2002 on a Pearson 26 (which has a full heavy keel) was: This is very nice but does it have to tilt like this? I knew I was in trouble. The next year we got our first Rhodes 22, an '87 with IMF. Needless to say, it is far more tender than the Pearson 26 (which was a club boat) so I learned to reef early and often. We are now on our 3rd Rhodes. Last year we bought the s/v Pinafore, a '90 that was refurbed by Stan in 2016 and sold our beloved Carol Lee 2. The CL2 was an '83 that I converted to an IMF main using the mast salvaged from the Carol Lee which swamped and turtled in a hurricane in 2011 and was totaled by Boat US Insurance. The Pinafore has the fully enclosed head with flush toilet instead of the porta potti, electric motor lift to save my old back and a 2016 (very quiet) 4 stroke Evinrude outboard to make motoring to and from the mooring far more pleasant than our old (but very reliable) screaming 2 stroke. Also worth mentioning, my wife Carol does not swim well and is terrified of the water. I bought her an offshore automatic inflatable life vest when we first started and she has sailed with me almost every weekend since. The little boat is our on-the-water summer home. We often sail with the Genoa (now a 130) only and I even reef that if the wind gusts get over 10 knots. We survived a sudden squall 2 years ago with 70 mph winds and 5 foot seas! I was tethered at the helm with Carol in the cabin with the pop top down. It was terrifying but the seaworthiness of the Rhodes 22 (with some credit to the idiot at the helm) carried the day. Carol even came back and sailed with me the following weekend! So Dennis, if you want to give the Rhodes another try, come on out to Massachusetts this season and sail with us on the Pinafore. I don't know if I'll get it together but I am scheduled to launch the first week in May and the launch service continues 7 days a week from 8 am to 9 pm until October 31. We sail out of the Hingham Shipyard Marina which leads to nicely protected waters and the lovely Boston Harbor Islands. Best weather is from July through September. Let me know if and when you want to come. *Thanks and Stay Well,* *Stephen Staum* *s/v Pinafore* *Needham, MA* On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM Dennis McNeely wrote: > Salute Stephen - > I'm on an island in the Detroit River - in Gibraltar, Michigan. I > really enjoyed my Rhodes 22, but then I met a lady who didn't deal > well with the boat when heeling - so now we have a trawler and I sail > a pair of Detroit Diesels. A bit of a bummer, but I'm still out on the > water, and she's happy with it! > Dennis McNeely > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > Stephen Staum > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:15 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Dennis that was a great comment. In addition to performance, I > noticed years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the > boat sat stern low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill > causing the bow low condition). It never filled on the mooring as the > boat normally sits with the bow lower. > Where are you from Dennis? > > > *Thanks and Stay Well,* > > *Stephen Staum* > *s/v Pinafore* > > *Needham, MA* > > > > On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely < > mcneelyd at site-solutions.com> > wrote: > > > Greetings all - > > One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the > > bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter > > the force of the sails. > > Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the > > sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. > > That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but > > it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is > > too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying > > to balance your rig is a non-starter. > > Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is > > riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you > > won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force > > of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the > > spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). > > The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. > > Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf > > Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > > > Mike, > > > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > > Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, > > establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > > Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the > > IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. > > Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good > > as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral > > or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have > > eliminated > all the weather helm. > > > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. > > I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. > > As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no > > matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t > > go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape > > of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You > > counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail > > area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. > > You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep > > the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance > > the > helm. > > > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how > > the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig > > tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even > > though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, > > he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go > > straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, > > the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The > > helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the > > weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always > > be reduced to take > the pressure off the tiller. > > Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > > amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing > > ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller > > is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, > > centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the > > required > lift for the boat to be able to point. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > > > Sent from Mail for > > Windows > > > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > > > Mike, > > > > A couple of things to check: > > > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler > > to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and > > there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail > > foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you > > can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best > > that is > possible. > > > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. > > It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. > > Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head > > rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form > > an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > > tension in the standing rigging. > > > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big > > sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very > > slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce > > the > mast rake angle. > > ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot > > of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > ?Hi All, > > > > > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm > > > starting to focus on getting the best performance out of her. > > > While I mostly sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and > > > want to be more competitive. In particular, I have found that she > > > does not go to > > windward very well for me. > > > > > > > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I > > > have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and > > > handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. > > > Consequently, I can only tack through about 100-120o. > > > > > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds > > > and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing > > > ability significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail > > > shape on some off wind points of sail. However, this > > > configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength > > > and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will > > > retain the ability to use a whisker > > pole on downwind legs. > > > > > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > > > alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second > > > set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch > > > between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, > > > those options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle > > > to the clew with the > > jib cars. > > > > > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you > > > have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Mike McKay > > > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > > Allatoona Lake > > > Acworth, GA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Sun Mar 20 20:29:04 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:29:04 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <4A0A7C30-1E22-49EC-84C6-5DD002F8AC9F@mac.com> References: <004e01d83cad$c0b11870$42134950$@site-solutions.com> <4A0A7C30-1E22-49EC-84C6-5DD002F8AC9F@mac.com> Message-ID: <005b01d83cba$ac4b76c0$04e26440$@site-solutions.com> Yep, sometimes it's fun to go gunkholing around in local marinas and boatyards to see the names folks have chosen for their boats Rod. We don't see dinghies with names so much however, and thought Magician's Apprentice would be a fitting, fun name. Good catch spotting Homecoming Queen! Dennis S/V Magic Moments M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Rod Ellner via Rhodes22-list Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 7:48 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Dennis et al When in Wi on St Croix River, there was a sailboat named Daydream Believer???.the dinghy, also named??Homecoming Queen! Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 20, 2022, at 4:56 PM, Dennis McNeely wrote: > > ?I like the name of your boat Roger. It fits well with the discussion at hand. > Earlier, I mentioned it's good to keep the bow of the boat down far enough to get the CE (center of effort) just aft of the CR (center of resistance) to make your boat head up if things get interesting - say for instance, if you're hard on the wind and it suddenly gusts and tries to knock you down. > The fact of the matter is that with boats as small as our Rhodes, all > it takes is for someone to come up out of the cabin and into the > cockpit to throw all our elaborate weight-balance calculations into a > cocked hat. Dynamic Equilibrium indeed! Still, it's fun to > play with our toys, as you mentioned ;) > > Dennis > S/V Magic Moments > M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel > ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:14 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Hi Dennis, > > When I first got S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, I did some experiments with my outboard motor, a stopwatch, and a measured mile on Sanford Lake where I live. Specifically, I was trying to determine what the ?best? fore/aft trim was. I moved ballast around to cause the boat to be 10 degrees down by the bow, level on the waterline, and 10 degrees down by the stern. I had a graduated cylinder rigged up to measure fuel consumption and an accurate digital tach so I could reproduce the same engine RPM?s. I choose the engine RPM to yield ~5 MPH to simulate sailing fast, so the effects of hull form wave making would be in the same range as sailing. I made repeated runs over the measured mile at slightly different engine RPM?s until I found the engine throttle setting that yielded 5 MPH (actually a time of 720 sec over the measured mile with a running start) at each fore/aft trim setting and then measured the fuel consumption. I did the experiments on a calm day when there was no other boat traffic and my lake has no currents. I was trying to separate out drag from all the other factors, measured in terms of small differences in fuel consumption. What I found was; down by the bow fore/aft trim was slightly better than level on the waterline and both were better than down by the stern. > > I think it?s a question of drag. Think about the hull shape behind the shoal draft keel back to the transom. You want this part of the hull to smoothly direct the flow coming off the keel back to merge with the surrounding water. When the hull is down by the stern, it acts like a set of landing flaps on an airplane wing - lots of drag. The difference between 10 degrees down by the bow to 10 degrees down by the stern is about 3% more fuel consumption and, I presume, that much more drag. > > However, there is a big caveat to this experiment. In waves, the boat depends on having sufficient reserve floatation in the bow to be able to punch thru waves. Without this reserve floatation, the bow may submarine and you are in danger of pitchpoling, definitely the start of a bad day on the water! But, for racing, especially on smooth water, slightly bow down trim is faster. > > Yes, I know I?m a nerd! But, a guy should be able to play with his toys, right? > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for > Windows > > From: Dennis McNeely > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 7:36 AM > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Greetings all - > One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter the force of the sails. > Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways. That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying to balance your rig is a non-starter. > Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind). > The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become. > Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from > Mail Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C > 914cc07d389f4c63239008da0a7f00fd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C > 1%7C0%7C637833837858729435%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA > iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=P%2BR > NYWHlNrtC0qaW2AYrc4X6tsNuo8tyobZPRUmhxuA%3D&reserved=0> for > Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting >> to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly >> sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >> can only tack through about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds >> and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me >> use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second >> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch >> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those >> options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > > From sloopblueheron at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 13:21:28 2022 From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com (Rick Lange) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:21:28 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Roger, The IMF mast does not rake. It stands for In Mast Furling. Regards, Rick Lange On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:46 AM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a > close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take > note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF > mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a > close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You > should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep > reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. > I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the > wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much > rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of > why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just > naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards > weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of > effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at > full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the > mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig > is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for > neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the > helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply > center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength > builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and > weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback > thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the > mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. > Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of > drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, > the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway > is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work > together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to > center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t > too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is > tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail > shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. > Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension > in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing > dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather > helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. > ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > > > ?Hi All, > > > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > focus > > on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for > fun, I > > do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > > particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for > me. > > > > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > been > > routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > > limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack > through > > about 100-120o. > > > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > the > > inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > significantly > > at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind > points > > of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to > > wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this > will > > retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > alternatives > > but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets > and > > probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a > mark > > (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to > control > > the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mike McKay > > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > Allatoona Lake > > Acworth, GA > > > > > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Mon Mar 21 14:07:14 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 18:07:14 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, Is this a joke? With you I never know. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Rick Lange wrote: > > ?Hi Roger, > > The IMF mast does not rake. It stands for In Mast Furling. > > Regards, > > Rick Lange > > >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:46 AM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: >> >> Mike, >> >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. >> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a >> close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take >> note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF >> mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a >> close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You >> should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep >> reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. >> >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. >> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the >> wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much >> rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of >> why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just >> naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards >> weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of >> effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at >> full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the >> mainsail area to balance the helm. >> >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig >> is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for >> neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the >> helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply >> center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength >> builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and >> weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback >> thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the >> mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. >> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of >> drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, >> the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway >> is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work >> together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows >> >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? >> >> Mike, >> >> A couple of things to check: >> >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? >> >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? >> >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to >> center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t >> too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is >> tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail >> shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. >> >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It >> takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. >> Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig >> needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an >> efficient slot with the mainsail. >> >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension >> in the standing rigging. >> >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing >> dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather >> helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. >> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. >> >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of >> weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. >> >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> ?Hi All, >>> >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to >> focus >>> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for >> fun, I >>> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In >>> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for >> me. >>> >>> >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >> been >>> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >>> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack >> through >>> about 100-120o. >>> >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and >> the >>> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >> significantly >>> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind >> points >>> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >>> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this >> will >>> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >>> >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >> alternatives >>> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets >> and >>> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a >> mark >>> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to >> control >>> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >>> >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Mike McKay >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >>> Allatoona Lake >>> Acworth, GA >>> >>> >> >> From sloopblueheron at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 15:56:39 2022 From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com (Rick Lange) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:56:39 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No joke. The IMF is absolutely stiff, so you can't rake it with a tensioner or bend it with a boom vang to affect mainsail shape. As with the jib, you shift the center of force by furling and unfurling. The focus of tuning the IMF rig with its dominant jib is backwards from what most people are used to. First tune the jib, then adjust the main to pull air most efficiently along the inner surface of the jib. Regards, Rick Lange On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:07 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Rick, > > Is this a joke? With you I never know. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 21, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Rick Lange > wrote: > > > > ?Hi Roger, > > > > The IMF mast does not rake. It stands for In Mast Furling. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rick Lange > > > > > >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:46 AM ROGER PIHLAJA > wrote: > >> > >> Mike, > >> > >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > >> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a > >> close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > Take > >> note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF > >> mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a > >> close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You > >> should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. > Keep > >> reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > >> > >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the > rig. > >> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As > the > >> wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much > >> rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics > of > >> why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull > just > >> naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards > >> weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of > >> effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the > foresail at > >> full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use > the > >> mainsail area to balance the helm. > >> > >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the > rig > >> is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for > >> neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the > >> helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to > simply > >> center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength > >> builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, > and > >> weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback > >> thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the > >> mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. > >> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > amount of > >> drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, > >> the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this > leeway > >> is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to > work > >> together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > >> > >> Roger Pihlaja > >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > >> > >> Sent from Mail< > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3d0483627edb440749cb08da0b5f55af%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834801342317279%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pj5DU32tWH%2B7tD5D5V7UY6fGG2Y%2FPQNmMwuhdJvXJw8%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows > >> > >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA > >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind > performance? > >> > >> Mike, > >> > >> A couple of things to check: > >> > >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > >> > >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > >> > >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to > >> center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t > >> too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is > >> tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail > >> shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > >> > >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > >> takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay > sag. > >> Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > >> needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > >> efficient slot with the mainsail. > >> > >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > tension > >> in the standing rigging. > >> > >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing > >> dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight > weather > >> helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake > angle. > >> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > >> > >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > >> weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > >> > >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. > >> > >> Roger Pihlaja > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > >>> > >>> ?Hi All, > >>> > >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > >> focus > >>> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for > >> fun, I > >>> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > >>> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for > >> me. > >>> > >>> > >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > >> been > >>> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > >>> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack > >> through > >>> about 100-120o. > >>> > >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > >> the > >>> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > >> significantly > >>> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind > >> points > >>> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt > to > >>> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this > >> will > >>> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > >>> > >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > >> alternatives > >>> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets > >> and > >>> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a > >> mark > >>> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to > >> control > >>> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > >>> > >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> > >>> Mike McKay > >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) > >>> Allatoona Lake > >>> Acworth, GA > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Mon Mar 21 16:38:55 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 20:38:55 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, You are confusing ?mast rake? with ?mast bend?. Mast bend implies an actual bending of the aluminum mast extrusion. As you noted in your post, the IMF mast is very stiff. Also with the mainsail, bearings, and other machinery stuffed inside the IMF mast, bending it out of straight and true would be very bad for the system. In contrast, mast rake is the angle the mast makes relative to the mast step. As you know, the base of the mast pivots on the mast step. The mast rake angle is established by the length of the forestay and the rest of the standing rigging is tuned to suit. My forestay has a turnbuckle built into the lower end terminal and the over all forestay length can be adjusted ~ +/- 3?. Raking the mast aft moves the center of effort (CE) of the mainsail aft. All else being equal, moving the mainsail?s CE aft will increase weather helm or moving it forward by shortening the forestay length will decrease weather helm (or increase lee helm). The early IMF mainsail rigs had a tendency towards too much weather helm when the mainsail was fully deployed. In Mike?s case, because he flies a 130% genoa vs a 150% or 175% genoa, this weather helm would be even more severe. The experiment I suggested wherein Mike would slightly furl the IMF mainsail a little at a time and then check for weather helm is a definitive test for diagnosing this forestay length issue. If Mike does not have a turnbuckle built-in to his forestay, or if the turnbuckle is already as short as possible; then, he will have to get a rigging shop to shorten the forestay and then swage on a new terminal. Or, Mike could get a bigger genoa. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Rick Lange Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 12:57 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? No joke. The IMF is absolutely stiff, so you can't rake it with a tensioner or bend it with a boom vang to affect mainsail shape. As with the jib, you shift the center of force by furling and unfurling. The focus of tuning the IMF rig with its dominant jib is backwards from what most people are used to. First tune the jib, then adjust the main to pull air most efficiently along the inner surface of the jib. Regards, Rick Lange On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:07 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Rick, > > Is this a joke? With you I never know. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 21, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Rick Lange > wrote: > > > > ?Hi Roger, > > > > The IMF mast does not rake. It stands for In Mast Furling. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rick Lange > > > > > >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:46 AM ROGER PIHLAJA > wrote: > >> > >> Mike, > >> > >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > >> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a > >> close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > Take > >> note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF > >> mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a > >> close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You > >> should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. > Keep > >> reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > >> > >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the > rig. > >> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As > the > >> wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much > >> rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics > of > >> why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull > just > >> naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards > >> weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of > >> effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the > foresail at > >> full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use > the > >> mainsail area to balance the helm. > >> > >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the > rig > >> is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for > >> neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the > >> helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to > simply > >> center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength > >> builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, > and > >> weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback > >> thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the > >> mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. > >> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > amount of > >> drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, > >> the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this > leeway > >> is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to > work > >> together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > >> > >> Roger Pihlaja > >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > >> > >> Sent from Mail< > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C77474ca915544701f89f08da0b750413%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834894465233964%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ykES%2FSMTPQlQde0Ie45ZFEuwlhPbUW5GYgKk26m10mE%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows > >> > >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA > >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind > performance? > >> > >> Mike, > >> > >> A couple of things to check: > >> > >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > >> > >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > >> > >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to > >> center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t > >> too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is > >> tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail > >> shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > >> > >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > >> takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay > sag. > >> Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > >> needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > >> efficient slot with the mainsail. > >> > >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > tension > >> in the standing rigging. > >> > >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing > >> dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight > weather > >> helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake > angle. > >> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > >> > >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > >> weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > >> > >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. > >> > >> Roger Pihlaja > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > >>> > >>> ?Hi All, > >>> > >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to > >> focus > >>> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for > >> fun, I > >>> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > >>> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for > >> me. > >>> > >>> > >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > >> been > >>> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > >>> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack > >> through > >>> about 100-120o. > >>> > >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and > >> the > >>> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > >> significantly > >>> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind > >> points > >>> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt > to > >>> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this > >> will > >>> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > >>> > >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > >> alternatives > >>> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets > >> and > >>> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a > >> mark > >>> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to > >> control > >>> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > >>> > >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> > >>> Mike McKay > >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) > >>> Allatoona Lake > >>> Acworth, GA > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > From sloopblueheron at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 17:15:14 2022 From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com (Rick Lange) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:15:14 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Roger, The mast cannot pivot on the mast step when rigged. The foot is cut straight across and perpendicular. The only thing you can do to the mast is adjust the backstay tensioner to affect the forestay tension and thus the shape of the jib. The amount of movement involved at the top of the mast is slight compared to what is generally called "raking the mast" to shift the mainsail center of force. Regards, Rick Lange On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 4:39 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Rick, > > You are confusing ?mast rake? with ?mast bend?. > > Mast bend implies an actual bending of the aluminum mast extrusion. As > you noted in your post, the IMF mast is very stiff. Also with the > mainsail, bearings, and other machinery stuffed inside the IMF mast, > bending it out of straight and true would be very bad for the system. > > In contrast, mast rake is the angle the mast makes relative to the mast > step. As you know, the base of the mast pivots on the mast step. The mast > rake angle is established by the length of the forestay and the rest of the > standing rigging is tuned to suit. My forestay has a turnbuckle built into > the lower end terminal and the over all forestay length can be adjusted ~ > +/- 3?. Raking the mast aft moves the center of effort (CE) of the > mainsail aft. All else being equal, moving the mainsail?s CE aft will > increase weather helm or moving it forward by shortening the forestay > length will decrease weather helm (or increase lee helm). The early IMF > mainsail rigs had a tendency towards too much weather helm when the > mainsail was fully deployed. In Mike?s case, because he flies a 130% genoa > vs a 150% or 175% genoa, this weather helm would be even more severe. The > experiment I suggested wherein Mike would slightly furl the IMF mainsail a > little at a time and then check for weather helm is a definitive test for > diagnosing this forestay length issue. If Mike does not have a turnbuckle > built-in to his forestay, or if the turnbuckle is already as short as > possible; then, he will have to get a rigging shop to shorten the forestay > and then swage on a new terminal. Or, Mike could get a bigger genoa. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Rick Lange > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 12:57 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > No joke. The IMF is absolutely stiff, so you can't rake it with a > tensioner or bend it with a boom vang to affect mainsail shape. > > As with the jib, you shift the center of force by furling and unfurling. > > The focus of tuning the IMF rig with its dominant jib is backwards from > what most people are used to. First tune the jib, then adjust the main to > pull air most efficiently along the inner surface of the jib. > > Regards, > > Rick Lange > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:07 PM ROGER PIHLAJA > wrote: > > > Rick, > > > > Is this a joke? With you I never know. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 21, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Rick Lange > > wrote: > > > > > > ?Hi Roger, > > > > > > The IMF mast does not rake. It stands for In Mast Furling. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rick Lange > > > > > > > > >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:46 AM ROGER PIHLAJA > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> > > >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > > >> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, > establish a > > >> close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > > Take > > >> note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF > > >> mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. > Reestablish a > > >> close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. > You > > >> should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. > > Keep > > >> reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > >> > > >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the > > rig. > > >> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. > As > > the > > >> wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how > much > > >> rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the > physics > > of > > >> why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull > > just > > >> naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards > > >> weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center > of > > >> effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the > > foresail at > > >> full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and > use > > the > > >> mainsail area to balance the helm. > > >> > > >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the > > rig > > >> is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for > > >> neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the > > >> helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to > > simply > > >> center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind > strength > > >> builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, > > and > > >> weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of > feedback > > >> thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the > > >> mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the > tiller. > > >> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > > amount of > > >> drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. > Remember, > > >> the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this > > leeway > > >> is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to > > work > > >> together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to > point. > > >> > > >> Roger Pihlaja > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > >> > > >> Sent from Mail< > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C77474ca915544701f89f08da0b750413%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834894465233964%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ykES%2FSMTPQlQde0Ie45ZFEuwlhPbUW5GYgKk26m10mE%3D&reserved=0 > >< > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C77474ca915544701f89f08da0b750413%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834894465233964%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ykES%2FSMTPQlQde0Ie45ZFEuwlhPbUW5GYgKk26m10mE%3D&reserved=0%3e > > > > for Windows > > >> > > >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA > > >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind > > performance? > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> > > >> A couple of things to check: > > >> > > >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > >> > > >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > >> > > >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler > to > > >> center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there > isn?t > > >> too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul > is > > >> tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with > mainsail > > >> shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > >> > > >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > > >> takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay > > sag. > > >> Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > > >> needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > > >> efficient slot with the mainsail. > > >> > > >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > > tension > > >> in the standing rigging. > > >> > > >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big > sailing > > >> dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight > > weather > > >> helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake > > angle. > > >> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > >> > > >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > > >> weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > >> > > >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > >> > > >> Roger Pihlaja > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >> > > >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > >>> > > >>> ?Hi All, > > >>> > > >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting > to > > >> focus > > >>> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for > > >> fun, I > > >>> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > > >>> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well > for > > >> me. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > > >> been > > >>> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. > That > > >>> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack > > >> through > > >>> about 100-120o. > > >>> > > >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds > and > > >> the > > >>> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > > >> significantly > > >>> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind > > >> points > > >>> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to > adapt > > to > > >>> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this > > >> will > > >>> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > >>> > > >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > > >> alternatives > > >>> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib > sheets > > >> and > > >>> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding > a > > >> mark > > >>> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to > > >> control > > >>> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > >>> > > >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > > >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Mike McKay > > >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > >>> Allatoona Lake > > >>> Acworth, GA > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Mon Mar 21 17:32:56 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 21:32:56 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, With respect sir, you apparently know how your boat works. If you change the length of the forestay, do you honestly think the rake angle of the mast isn?t going to change? Of course the mast pivots on the mast step. You pivot the mast on the mast step thru 90 degrees every time you step or unstep the mast. Once the mast is up there, do you think it?s rigidly protruding from the mast step? Once you have established the mast rake angle with the length of the forestay, you tune the rest of the standing rigging to work with that mast rake angle. The mast rake angle is the first basic tuning parameter you set when tuning the standing rigging. Go and take a good close look at your setup and think about how it has to work. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Rick Lange Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 2:16 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Roger, The mast cannot pivot on the mast step when rigged. The foot is cut straight across and perpendicular. The only thing you can do to the mast is adjust the backstay tensioner to affect the forestay tension and thus the shape of the jib. The amount of movement involved at the top of the mast is slight compared to what is generally called "raking the mast" to shift the mainsail center of force. Regards, Rick Lange On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 4:39 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Rick, > > You are confusing ?mast rake? with ?mast bend?. > > Mast bend implies an actual bending of the aluminum mast extrusion. As > you noted in your post, the IMF mast is very stiff. Also with the > mainsail, bearings, and other machinery stuffed inside the IMF mast, > bending it out of straight and true would be very bad for the system. > > In contrast, mast rake is the angle the mast makes relative to the mast > step. As you know, the base of the mast pivots on the mast step. The mast > rake angle is established by the length of the forestay and the rest of the > standing rigging is tuned to suit. My forestay has a turnbuckle built into > the lower end terminal and the over all forestay length can be adjusted ~ > +/- 3?. Raking the mast aft moves the center of effort (CE) of the > mainsail aft. All else being equal, moving the mainsail?s CE aft will > increase weather helm or moving it forward by shortening the forestay > length will decrease weather helm (or increase lee helm). The early IMF > mainsail rigs had a tendency towards too much weather helm when the > mainsail was fully deployed. In Mike?s case, because he flies a 130% genoa > vs a 150% or 175% genoa, this weather helm would be even more severe. The > experiment I suggested wherein Mike would slightly furl the IMF mainsail a > little at a time and then check for weather helm is a definitive test for > diagnosing this forestay length issue. If Mike does not have a turnbuckle > built-in to his forestay, or if the turnbuckle is already as short as > possible; then, he will have to get a rigging shop to shorten the forestay > and then swage on a new terminal. Or, Mike could get a bigger genoa. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Rick Lange > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 12:57 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > No joke. The IMF is absolutely stiff, so you can't rake it with a > tensioner or bend it with a boom vang to affect mainsail shape. > > As with the jib, you shift the center of force by furling and unfurling. > > The focus of tuning the IMF rig with its dominant jib is backwards from > what most people are used to. First tune the jib, then adjust the main to > pull air most efficiently along the inner surface of the jib. > > Regards, > > Rick Lange > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:07 PM ROGER PIHLAJA > wrote: > > > Rick, > > > > Is this a joke? With you I never know. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 21, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Rick Lange > > wrote: > > > > > > ?Hi Roger, > > > > > > The IMF mast does not rake. It stands for In Mast Furling. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rick Lange > > > > > > > > >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:46 AM ROGER PIHLAJA > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> > > >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. > > >> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, > establish a > > >> close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. > > Take > > >> note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF > > >> mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. > Reestablish a > > >> close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. > You > > >> should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. > > Keep > > >> reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > >> > > >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the > > rig. > > >> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. > As > > the > > >> wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how > much > > >> rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the > physics > > of > > >> why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull > > just > > >> naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards > > >> weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center > of > > >> effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the > > foresail at > > >> full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and > use > > the > > >> mainsail area to balance the helm. > > >> > > >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the > > rig > > >> is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for > > >> neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the > > >> helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to > > simply > > >> center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind > strength > > >> builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, > > and > > >> weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of > feedback > > >> thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the > > >> mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the > tiller. > > >> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing > > amount of > > >> drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. > Remember, > > >> the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this > > leeway > > >> is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to > > work > > >> together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to > point. > > >> > > >> Roger Pihlaja > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > >> > > >> Sent from Mail< > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C48166ecd8f054fe4f9ba08da0b7ffe2c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834941601944833%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Ron4GVxmmiu544wdmhOeK2uEexQChtbVrQym4qCFfcE%3D&reserved=0 > >< > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C48166ecd8f054fe4f9ba08da0b7ffe2c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834941601944833%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Ron4GVxmmiu544wdmhOeK2uEexQChtbVrQym4qCFfcE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > for Windows > > >> > > >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA > > >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind > > performance? > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> > > >> A couple of things to check: > > >> > > >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > >> > > >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > >> > > >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler > to > > >> center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there > isn?t > > >> too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul > is > > >> tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with > mainsail > > >> shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > >> > > >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It > > >> takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay > > sag. > > >> Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig > > >> needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an > > >> efficient slot with the mainsail. > > >> > > >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the > > tension > > >> in the standing rigging. > > >> > > >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big > sailing > > >> dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight > > weather > > >> helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake > > angle. > > >> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > >> > > >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of > > >> weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > >> > > >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > >> > > >> Roger Pihlaja > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >> > > >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > >>> > > >>> ?Hi All, > > >>> > > >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting > to > > >> focus > > >>> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for > > >> fun, I > > >>> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > > >>> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well > for > > >> me. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have > > >> been > > >>> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. > That > > >>> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack > > >> through > > >>> about 100-120o. > > >>> > > >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds > and > > >> the > > >>> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability > > >> significantly > > >>> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind > > >> points > > >>> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to > adapt > > to > > >>> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this > > >> will > > >>> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > >>> > > >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat > > >> alternatives > > >>> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib > sheets > > >> and > > >>> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding > a > > >> mark > > >>> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to > > >> control > > >>> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > >>> > > >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > > >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Mike McKay > > >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) > > >>> Allatoona Lake > > >>> Acworth, GA > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Mon Mar 21 18:19:56 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:19:56 -0700 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Message-ID: Rick, I have to agree with Roger on this. The rake of the mast can obviously be adjusted. (Not that I?ve ever paid any attention to mine.) Peter Nyberg Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:49:26 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 22:49:26 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Roger, Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? Anyway, this is a great conversation! Thanks, Mike Mike McKay s/v Liber (2006/2018) Allatoona Lake Acworth, GA -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilbrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, A couple of things to check: 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. Hopefully, these suggestions help. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Hi All, > > Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus > on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I > do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In > particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. > > > I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been > routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That > limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through > about 100-120o. > > Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the > inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly > at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points > of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to > wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will > retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. > > I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives > but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and > probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark > (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control > the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. > > I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have > learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. > > Thanks, > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0566.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2486639 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Mon Mar 21 23:10:45 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 03:10:45 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus >> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I >> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In >> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been >> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through >> about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the >> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly >> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points >> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will >> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives >> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and >> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark >> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control >> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Tue Mar 22 08:38:42 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:38:42 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus >> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I >> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In >> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been >> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through >> about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the >> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly >> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points >> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will >> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives >> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and >> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark >> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control >> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Tue Mar 22 09:14:20 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:14:20 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03b301d83dee$be67bcd0$3b373670$@ca> Roger: What I would give to have you spend awhile on my boat with me. Over 30 years I have done practically all of the renovations one can do on a Rhodes but I still can't sail it worth a damn. Sail trim seems to defeat me. I can fix the boat, I just can't make it sail properly and have never had the opportunity to sail with anyone who knew what they were doing. I enjoy you sailing advice. Thanks for making the effort. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus >> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I >> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In >> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been >> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through >> about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the >> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly >> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points >> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will >> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives >> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and >> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark >> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control >> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From mweisner at ebsmed.com Tue Mar 22 09:53:06 2022 From: mweisner at ebsmed.com (Michael D. Weisner) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:53:06 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002f01d83df4$296fb190$7c4f14b0$@ebsmed.com> Mike, I looked at the photo. The jib sheets appear to have been replaced with thinner line. I think that they were 1/2" line. Your hands will appreciate the larger diameter and the winches will function better. Mike s/v Wind Lass ('91) Nissequogue River, NY -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from > Mail Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C > 1722347e114a405a1dd408da0bb19116%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C > 1%7C0%7C637835154533616752%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA > iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i03zu > Wfrmxj7Br%2BRAGHRIAfaeA9YOHda7le1ow4t4Ao%3D&reserved=0> for > Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting >> to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly >> sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >> can only tack through about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds >> and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me >> use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second >> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch >> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those >> options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 12:37:54 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:37:54 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c4301d83e0b$2e852630$8b8f7290$@gmail.com> Roger, Thanks again for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. 1) My jib cars are all the way forward. I agree that the jib tracks don't provide the proper range of positions with the 130% genoa. In regards to optimum jib size for the Rhodes 22, I had posted that question to the forum before I bought my Rhodes, and there seemed to be some consensus that a 130 was the best compromise. I would like to sail a boat with one of the larger sails, but I imagine they would be harder to tack in light air (typical of my area), although having more sail area would also be beneficial. My genoa has telltales without windows, but in most cases you can easily see the leeward telltale through the sail. Because of the limitations imposed by the jib tracks, I have limited control over the twist in the headsail. If you had it to do over again, would you stay with the 150 genoa or go with a different size? 2) I hadn?t realized that there is a factory option for additional jib tracks. I will check with Stan regarding those, but I suspect the installation process would be non-trivial. Based on your comments, it also seems that they would only be useful when I partially furl the sail in heavier wind and wouldn't help give me better sheeting options with the full sail. 3) I am slightly familiar with barber haulers. They are generally used off the wind to help hold the clew further outboard with less twist than would be possible with the inboard jib fairleads. I have thought about how to install a barber hauler on my Rhodes but haven't attempted it. 4) My mainsail is definitely fully unfurled. The outhaul allows me to pull it out within a couple of inches of the end of the boom. I also have concerns about the position of the draft--it also seemed too far aft to me, but the Rhodes running rigging doesn't give one much control over that. Has anyone ever tried using a Cunningham with the IMF sail? Would that be potentially dangerous? 5) My main does have a leech line, which is fully eased. The sailmaker speculated that a prior owner had tightened it too much for too long which may be why it is permanently cupped. I'm beginning to see that a new main could be required to solve multiple issues. By the way, I had tightened the outhaul because the wind gusts had picked up quite a bit--it started out much looser. Your discussion about the "groove" is spot on. 6) Finally, have you or anyone else tried routing the jib sheets between the shrouds as I described? For me it was a positive change, but it seems I have other issues that need to be addressed to improve my windward performance. Thanks Roger! Mike McKay s/v Liber (2006/2018) Allatoona Lake Acworth, GA -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus >> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I >> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In >> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been >> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through >> about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the >> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly >> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points >> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will >> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives >> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and >> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark >> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control >> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Tue Mar 22 12:50:18 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:50:18 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d83e0c$ea8f5020$bfadf060$@site-solutions.com> Mike - One or two other thoughts to re-distribute weight, and then (like Roger), I'm out of suggestions. In order of increasing expense, you can: - put more water in the tank amidships - add chain (or use heavier chain) as a leader on your anchor rode - add an extendable hiking stick to your tiller, then sit further forward while sailing - Add a lead-acid battery (or a second battery) adjacent to the water tank The further forward the weight is, the more effect it will have. If rumors are true, Rummy kept a cask of Mount Gay in the V berth :) Dennis S/V Magic Moments M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from > Mail Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C > 1722347e114a405a1dd408da0bb19116%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C > 1%7C0%7C637835154533616752%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA > iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i03zu > Wfrmxj7Br%2BRAGHRIAfaeA9YOHda7le1ow4t4Ao%3D&reserved=0> for > Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting >> to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly >> sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >> can only tack through about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds >> and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me >> use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second >> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch >> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those >> options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Tue Mar 22 13:09:46 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:09:46 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <000001d83e0c$ea8f5020$bfadf060$@site-solutions.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> <000001d83e0c$ea8f5020$bfadf060$@site-solutions.com> Message-ID: Mike, Whenever I get stumped trying to diagnose an issue, I tend to go back to the basics. So, please forgive me; but, I want to make certain we are both thinking the same thing when we talk about lee helm and weather helm. If you center the tiller and then let go of it, what does your boat do? If the bow of your boat turns towards the eye of the wind, your boat has weather helm. Conversely, if the bow of your boat turns away from the eye of the wind, your boat has lee helm. If your boat does not turn either way, your boat has neutral helm. Are we on the same page regarding these definitions? Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Dennis McNeely Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 9:50 AM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike - One or two other thoughts to re-distribute weight, and then (like Roger), I'm out of suggestions. In order of increasing expense, you can: - put more water in the tank amidships - add chain (or use heavier chain) as a leader on your anchor rode - add an extendable hiking stick to your tiller, then sit further forward while sailing - Add a lead-acid battery (or a second battery) adjacent to the water tank The further forward the weight is, the more effect it will have. If rumors are true, Rummy kept a cask of Mount Gay in the V berth :) Dennis S/V Magic Moments M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from > Mail Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C > 1722347e114a405a1dd408da0bb19116%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C > 1%7C0%7C637835154533616752%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA > iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i03zu > Wfrmxj7Br%2BRAGHRIAfaeA9YOHda7le1ow4t4Ao%3D&reserved=0> for > Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting >> to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly >> sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >> can only tack through about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds >> and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me >> use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second >> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch >> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those >> options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:49:12 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (Michael McKay) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:49:12 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, we agree on the definitions for sure! Michael McKay (630) 209-2054 (m) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2022, at 1:09 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > > ?Mike, > > Whenever I get stumped trying to diagnose an issue, I tend to go back to the basics. So, please forgive me; but, I want to make certain we are both thinking the same thing when we talk about lee helm and weather helm. > > If you center the tiller and then let go of it, what does your boat do? If the bow of your boat turns towards the eye of the wind, your boat has weather helm. Conversely, if the bow of your boat turns away from the eye of the wind, your boat has lee helm. If your boat does not turn either way, your boat has neutral helm. Are we on the same page regarding these definitions? > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Dennis McNeely > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 9:50 AM > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike - > One or two other thoughts to re-distribute weight, and then (like Roger), I'm out of suggestions. > In order of increasing expense, you can: > - put more water in the tank amidships > - add chain (or use heavier chain) as a leader on your anchor rode > - add an extendable hiking stick to your tiller, then sit further forward while sailing > - Add a lead-acid battery (or a second battery) adjacent to the water tank > The further forward the weight is, the more effect it will have. If rumors are true, Rummy kept a cask of Mount Gay in the V berth :) > Dennis > S/V Magic Moments > M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel > ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. > > My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. > > Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. > > Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. > > But, here is what?s confusing me: > > At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? > > In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. > > Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. > > Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > ________________________________ > From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Roger, >> >> Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. >> >> My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. >> >> My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. >> >> I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? >> >> Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? >> >> Anyway, this is a great conversation! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of >> ROGER PIHLAJA >> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? >> >> Mike, >> >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. >> >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. >> >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium >> >> Sent from >> Mail> Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C >> 1722347e114a405a1dd408da0bb19116%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C >> 1%7C0%7C637835154533616752%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA >> iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i03zu >> Wfrmxj7Br%2BRAGHRIAfaeA9YOHda7le1ow4t4Ao%3D&reserved=0> for >> Windows >> >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? >> >> Mike, >> >> A couple of things to check: >> >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? >> >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? >> >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. >> >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. >> >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. >> >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. >> >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. >> >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> ?Hi All, >>> >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting >>> to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly >>> sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >>> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >>> >>> >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >>> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >>> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >>> can only tack through about 100-120o. >>> >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds >>> and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >>> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >>> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me >>> use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >>> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >>> >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >>> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second >>> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch >>> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those >>> options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >>> >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Mike McKay >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >>> Allatoona Lake >>> Acworth, GA >>> >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was >> scrubbed... >> Name: IMG_0566.JPG >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 2486639 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: > From sloopblueheron at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:49:57 2022 From: sloopblueheron at gmail.com (Rick Lange) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:49:57 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Roger, Again, you have it backwards. The forestay length is taken with the mast free standing and prevented from falling by the 4 lower stays and shrouds. Putting undue stress on the step with a too-short forestay buys nothing but maintenance headache. That the mast does not pivot when rigged should be evident to you when you lower it because you have to give it a good shove to get it started. That shove slides the aft edge of the foot forward on the step plate, raising the turning bolt in its vertical slot. As often discussed on this list, sometimes the mast step plate tears loose and no pivot occurs. Pulling on the screws attaching the step by an overly tight forestay contributes to this problem by opening space for water to run down the screws and rot the wooden mast step base. Regards, Rick Lange On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:33 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Rick, > > With respect sir, you apparently know how your boat works. > > If you change the length of the forestay, do you honestly think the rake > angle of the mast isn?t going to change? Of course the mast pivots on the > mast step. You pivot the mast on the mast step thru 90 degrees every time > you step or unstep the mast. Once the mast is up there, do you think it?s > rigidly protruding from the mast step? Once you have established the mast > rake angle with the length of the forestay, you tune the rest of the > standing rigging to work with that mast rake angle. The mast rake angle is > the first basic tuning parameter you set when tuning the standing rigging. > > Go and take a good close look at your setup and think about how it has to > work. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 15:00:10 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (Michael McKay) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:00:10 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <002f01d83df4$296fb190$7c4f14b0$@ebsmed.com> References: <002f01d83df4$296fb190$7c4f14b0$@ebsmed.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, My sheets are 3/8?, which seems about right to me. Thanks, Mike Michael McKay (630) 209-2054 (m) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Michael D. Weisner wrote: > > ?Mike, > > I looked at the photo. The jib sheets appear to have been replaced with thinner line. I think that they were 1/2" line. Your hands will appreciate the larger diameter and the winches will function better. > > Mike > s/v Wind Lass ('91) > Nissequogue River, NY > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. > > My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. > > Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. > > Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. > > But, here is what?s confusing me: > > At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? > > In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. > > Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. > > Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > ________________________________ > From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Roger, >> >> Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. >> >> My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. >> >> My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. >> >> I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? >> >> Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? >> >> Anyway, this is a great conversation! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of >> ROGER PIHLAJA >> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? >> >> Mike, >> >> Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. >> >> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. >> >> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium >> >> Sent from >> Mail> Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7C%7C >> 1722347e114a405a1dd408da0bb19116%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C >> 1%7C0%7C637835154533616752%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA >> iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i03zu >> Wfrmxj7Br%2BRAGHRIAfaeA9YOHda7le1ow4t4Ao%3D&reserved=0> for >> Windows >> >> From: ROGER PIHLAJA >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? >> >> Mike, >> >> A couple of things to check: >> >> 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? >> >> 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? >> >> 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. >> >> 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. >> >> 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. >> >> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. >> >> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. >> >> Hopefully, these suggestions help. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> ?Hi All, >>> >>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting >>> to focus on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly >>> sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and want to be more >>> competitive. In particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >>> >>> >>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have >>> been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and >>> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I >>> can only tack through about 100-120o. >>> >>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds >>> and the inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability >>> significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on >>> some off wind points of sail. However, this configuration lets me >>> use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength and whether or not I am >>> partially reefed. I think this will retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >>> >>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat >>> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second >>> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch >>> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo). Also, those >>> options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >>> >>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >>> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Mike McKay >>> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >>> Allatoona Lake >>> Acworth, GA >>> >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was >> scrubbed... >> Name: IMG_0566.JPG >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 2486639 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Tue Mar 22 15:12:46 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:12:46 -0700 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet Line Size Message-ID: That's what mine were from the GB factory. --Peter > On 2022-03-22, at 15:00:10 EDT, Michael McKay wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > My sheets are 3/8?, which seems about right to me. > > Thanks, > > Mike > > Michael McKay > (630) 209-2054 (m) > > Sent from my iPhone > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Tue Mar 22 15:27:19 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 19:27:19 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, I give up with you. I can explain it to you, but I can?t understand it for you. I only hope the rest of the Rhodes List doesn?t buy into your nonsense and not avail themselves of this fundamental means of tuning the rig. Please don?t argue with me anymore, I?m tired of it, and I won?t respond. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2022, at 1:50 PM, Rick Lange wrote: > > ?Hi Roger, > > Again, you have it backwards. The forestay length is taken with the mast > free standing and prevented from falling by the 4 lower stays and shrouds. > Putting undue stress on the step with a too-short forestay buys nothing but > maintenance headache. > > That the mast does not pivot when rigged should be evident to you when you > lower it because you have to give it a good shove to get it started. That > shove slides the aft edge of the foot forward on the step plate, raising > the turning bolt in its vertical slot. > > As often discussed on this list, sometimes the mast step plate tears loose > and no pivot occurs. Pulling on the screws attaching the step by an overly > tight forestay contributes to this problem by opening space for water to > run down the screws and rot the wooden mast step base. > > Regards, > > Rick Lange > > >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:33 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: >> >> Rick, >> >> With respect sir, you apparently know how your boat works. >> >> If you change the length of the forestay, do you honestly think the rake >> angle of the mast isn?t going to change? Of course the mast pivots on the >> mast step. You pivot the mast on the mast step thru 90 degrees every time >> you step or unstep the mast. Once the mast is up there, do you think it?s >> rigidly protruding from the mast step? Once you have established the mast >> rake angle with the length of the forestay, you tune the rest of the >> standing rigging to work with that mast rake angle. The mast rake angle is >> the first basic tuning parameter you set when tuning the standing rigging. >> >> Go and take a good close look at your setup and think about how it has to >> work. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium >> From mwhipple59 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 22:21:28 2022 From: mwhipple59 at gmail.com (Mark Whipple) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:21:28 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Painting Message-ID: In case you haven't been following the daily posts of the work being done on my R22 by Tim Lackey, you may want to look at Monday's post . Tim's a pretty down-to-business guy so I was surprised to see that he posted a video of the first coat of paint (top coat) going on with some random soothing music.Watching the paint go on is one of those oddly satisfying things - at least it is for me. I've done a fair amount of spray painting so it's a very familiar process. Click the link to advance to Tuesday's post with shiny pictures of the cured paint. Mark Boston, MA 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* From borderfolle at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 22:45:23 2022 From: borderfolle at yahoo.com (Donald Simons) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 02:45:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <0c4301d83e0b$2e852630$8b8f7290$@gmail.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> <0c4301d83e0b$2e852630$8b8f7290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1332696431.868943.1648003524083@mail.yahoo.com> Mike, Our Rhodes came with a working jib as well as the 150 Genoa. I replaced our jib sheets and route the new ones outside the upper shrouds.? I then "re-purposed" the old ones and route them outside of the forward lower, and inside the rear lower.? I attached snap hooks to make switching the sheets easier, but they do occasionally hang up on the shrouds. Don Simons,? Ithaca, NY? ? On Tuesday, March 22, 2022, 12:38:01 PM EDT, wrote: Roger, Thanks again for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. 1) My jib cars are all the way forward.? I agree that the jib tracks don't provide the proper range of positions with the 130% genoa.? In regards to optimum jib size for the Rhodes 22, I had posted that question to the forum before I bought my Rhodes, and there seemed to be some consensus that a 130 was the best compromise.? I would like to sail a boat with one of the larger sails, but I imagine they would be harder to tack in light air (typical of my area), although having more sail area would also be beneficial.? My genoa has telltales without windows, but in most cases you can easily see the leeward telltale through the sail.? Because of the limitations imposed by the jib tracks, I have limited control over the twist in the headsail.? If you had it to do over again, would you stay with the 150 genoa or go with a different size? 2) I hadn?t realized that there is a factory option for additional jib tracks.? I will check with Stan regarding those, but I suspect the installation process would be non-trivial.? Based on your comments, it also seems that they would only be useful when I partially furl the sail in heavier wind and wouldn't help give me better sheeting options with the full sail. 3) I am slightly familiar with barber haulers.? They are generally used off the wind to help hold the clew further outboard with less twist than would be possible with the inboard jib fairleads.? I have thought about how to install a barber hauler on my Rhodes but haven't attempted it. 4) My mainsail is definitely fully unfurled.? The outhaul allows me to pull it out within a couple of inches of the end of the boom.? I also have concerns about the position of the draft--it also seemed too far aft to me, but the Rhodes running rigging doesn't give one much control over that.? Has anyone ever tried using a Cunningham with the IMF sail?? Would that be potentially dangerous? 5) My main does have a leech line, which is fully eased.? The sailmaker speculated that a prior owner had tightened it too much for too long which may be why it is permanently cupped.? I'm beginning to see that a new main could be required to solve multiple issues.? By the way, I had tightened the outhaul because the wind gusts had picked up quite a bit--it started out much looser.? Your discussion about the "groove" is spot on. 6) Finally, have you or anyone else tried routing the jib sheets between the shrouds as I described?? For me it was a positive change, but it seems I have other issues that need to be addressed to improve my windward performance. Thanks Roger! Mike McKay s/v Liber (2006/2018) Allatoona Lake Acworth, GA -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words.? As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail.? With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track.? It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa.? Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me.? At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks.? These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse.? It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks.? The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option.? Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions.? I have no experience with these.? Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff?? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim.? You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind.? Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled.? Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa.? Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa.? So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm?? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled?? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom?? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim.? The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions.? If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman.? The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails.? A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range.? But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure.? Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it?? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl.? You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay.? If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay.? If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets.? As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds.? This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline.? I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance.? I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.)? Attached is a picture I took.? The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm.? I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far.? I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape.? Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech.? My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance.? I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting.? I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette.? That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy.? Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake.? Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible.? Take note of how much weather helm you have.? Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches.? Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible.? You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm.? Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig.? I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air.? As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail.? I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm.? You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area.? This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm.? You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned.? The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman.? So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight.? As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build.? The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller.? If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller.? Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag.? This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability.? Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1.? Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2.? Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3.? In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom.? Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech.? Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight.? Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4.? Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay.? It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag.? Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster.? A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5.? Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible.? There should be zero to very slight weather helm.? If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle.? ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus >> on getting the best performance out of her.? While I mostly sail for fun, I >> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive.? In >> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail.? Until very recently, I have been >> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through >> about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the >> inner shrouds.? That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly >> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points >> of sail.? However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed.? I think this will >> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives >> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and >> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark >> (I often race solo).? Also, those options eliminate the ability to control >> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sheets.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2286138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 06:54:06 2022 From: jeffsmithphoto at gmail.com (Jeff Smith Photo) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 06:54:06 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Upwind Performance Message-ID: Crew weight is the best way to affect fore and aft trim. When I first got the boat I would steer with my weight as forward as possible on the weather gunwale, which was pretty uncomfortable with the winches, sailtrack and Bimini frame. Now I have embraced the comfort of the Captains Chairs, unless there is another boat in sight that I just have to beat... Best Regards Jeff Smith www.http://JeffSmithPhoto.Net 732-236-1368 From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Wed Mar 23 08:54:46 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? In-Reply-To: <1332696431.868943.1648003524083@mail.yahoo.com> References: <089201d83af0$809d8ac0$81d8a040$@gmail.com> <0ba701d83d97$72097c90$561c75b0$@gmail.com> <0c4301d83e0b$2e852630$8b8f7290$@gmail.com> <1332696431.868943.1648003524083@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, We could have endless discussions about the optimum genoa size on the Rhodes 22. With a roller furling headsail, there have to be many compromises in the materials and the design. Especially the 175% genoa has to be light enough to inflate in light air, but strong enough to withstand heavy air without damage. Achieving proper sail shape across such a wide wind speed range is also an issue. The full draft shape desired for light air is all wrong for heavy air. I?ll tell you what I did. First of all, I upgraded the roller furler to a Harken Unit 0. This system makes extensive use of Torlon ? ball, roller, and needle bearings throughout to minimize friction. My 25+ year old unit still spins as easily as a bicycle rim! The Harken unit uses a streamlined luff foil with dual grooves in case you want to hoist 2 headsails. There are independent upper and lower swivels to take advantage of the superior sail shaping technology available with foam luff pads on the genoa. Then, I needed a sail to go with the Harken roller furler. After a lot of research and discussions with sailmakers, I decided to go with JSI in St. Petersburg, FL. They built me a 150% genoa with bi-radial construction made with Bainbridge Cruise-Lam ? sailcloth, stitched together with Kevlar thread. Cruise-Lam ? sailcloth is a 5 layer composite with an inner Mylar core, a Kevlar scrim on each side of the core (think coarse mesh), and Dacron outer skins for abrasion and UV resistance. The composite sailcloth is both light enough to inflate in light air and strong enough to maintain sail shape in heavy air. Then, to maintain proper sail shape as the sail is furled, there Is a foam luff pad. The foam luff pad works with the independent upper and lower swivels on the roller furler to quickly take up the extra sailcloth as the sail is furled. Starting with a full draft light air sail shape, the more the sail is furled, the flatter the sail shape becomes. I didn?t have them install a ?UV stripe? made of Sunbrella ? acrylic fabric on the foot and the leech because the sailmaker advised; that, it would make the sail too stiff and heavy to inflate in light air. Instead, I use my spinnaker halyard to hoist an ATN ?Genoa Sleeve? over the furled up genoa. The Genoa Sleeve is made of Sunbrella ? and completely protects the genoa in the manner of a snap-on mainsail cover. In fact, my mainsail cover and Genoa Sleeve are both from JSI, both in matching Pacific Blue Sunbrella?. This sail has been a remarkable success. I?ve never had to repair it and the sail shape looks as good today as when it was new. Despite the high tech composite construction, there is no sign of fatigue or UV degradation even after all these years of use. It was expensive; but, I?ve certainly gotten my years of use out of it. Realistically, with the composite sailcloth, bi-radial construction, foam luff pad, and Harken roller furler; I can get good sail shape from 150% down to about 100%. Furl it up any smaller than that and the rolled up luff is such a big ?lump? on the leading edge of the sail; that, the air flow is disturbed all the way to the leech no matter how you trim it. At that point, the furled up genoa is just some sail area you put up to balance the helm. I should really buy a 100-110 % heavy air jib for conditions like that. I have sailed on Rhodes 22?s with the 175% genoa. The big genoa is a little harder to tack in light air. But, you soon learn proper technique and get used to it. For me, the tradeoff was giving up the relatively rare days when there was enough wind to sail at all, even with the 175% genoa vs. the more numerous days when you need to reef down to 100%. Often, when you could fly the 175%, the wind is flucky, changing directions all around the compass, sometimes dying all together. At best, sailing is not much fun under those conditions. Whereas, the Rhodes 22 comes alive when the small craft warnings go up! I tried to choose a genoa size that would work for about 80% of the my sailing conditions. I also have a fully battened, conventional mainsail and the old style, high aspect ratio hydrofoil, centerboard and rudder. Up to about 20 knots wind speed, I can consistently achieve ~85 degree tacking angles. That?s pretty good for a trailerable cruising sailboat. Above about 20 knots, my windward performance rapidly falls off. Again, a smaller headsail would probably help. Anyway, that?s how I approached this issue. I?ll be interested in hearing what you do. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Donald Simons via Rhodes22-list Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 7:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, Our Rhodes came with a working jib as well as the 150 Genoa. I replaced our jib sheets and route the new ones outside the upper shrouds. I then "re-purposed" the old ones and route them outside of the forward lower, and inside the rear lower. I attached snap hooks to make switching the sheets easier, but they do occasionally hang up on the shrouds. Don Simons, Ithaca, NY On Tuesday, March 22, 2022, 12:38:01 PM EDT, wrote: Roger, Thanks again for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. 1) My jib cars are all the way forward. I agree that the jib tracks don't provide the proper range of positions with the 130% genoa. In regards to optimum jib size for the Rhodes 22, I had posted that question to the forum before I bought my Rhodes, and there seemed to be some consensus that a 130 was the best compromise. I would like to sail a boat with one of the larger sails, but I imagine they would be harder to tack in light air (typical of my area), although having more sail area would also be beneficial. My genoa has telltales without windows, but in most cases you can easily see the leeward telltale through the sail. Because of the limitations imposed by the jib tracks, I have limited control over the twist in the headsail. If you had it to do over again, would you stay with the 150 genoa or go with a different size? 2) I hadn?t realized that there is a factory option for additional jib tracks. I will check with Stan regarding those, but I suspect the installation process would be non-trivial. Based on your comments, it also seems that they would only be useful when I partially furl the sail in heavier wind and wouldn't help give me better sheeting options with the full sail. 3) I am slightly familiar with barber haulers. They are generally used off the wind to help hold the clew further outboard with less twist than would be possible with the inboard jib fairleads. I have thought about how to install a barber hauler on my Rhodes but haven't attempted it. 4) My mainsail is definitely fully unfurled. The outhaul allows me to pull it out within a couple of inches of the end of the boom. I also have concerns about the position of the draft--it also seemed too far aft to me, but the Rhodes running rigging doesn't give one much control over that. Has anyone ever tried using a Cunningham with the IMF sail? Would that be potentially dangerous? 5) My main does have a leech line, which is fully eased. The sailmaker speculated that a prior owner had tightened it too much for too long which may be why it is permanently cupped. I'm beginning to see that a new main could be required to solve multiple issues. By the way, I had tightened the outhaul because the wind gusts had picked up quite a bit--it started out much looser. Your discussion about the "groove" is spot on. 6) Finally, have you or anyone else tried routing the jib sheets between the shrouds as I described? For me it was a positive change, but it seems I have other issues that need to be addressed to improve my windward performance. Thanks Roger! Mike McKay s/v Liber (2006/2018) Allatoona Lake Acworth, GA -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, OK, I took a look at the picture you sent and pondered your words. As you said in your post, in the picture, the genoa is sheeted in too hard and is backwinding the mainsail. With a 130% genoa, the genoa sheeting car position should be all the way to the front of the track. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture; but, it looks like you might have the genoa sheeting car a little bit too far back on the track. My Rhodes 22 has a 150% genoa. Trying to sail with it furled up to 130% is difficult for me. At 130%, the proper genoa sheeting car position is actually somewhere in between the forward most position on the cockpit gunnel mounted tracks and the aft most position of the side deck mounted tracks. These tracks are mounted inboard on the side decks right up against the base of the doghouse. It?s better for me to furl the genoa a little more, say down to 110-120%, and then just shift to the side deck mounted tracks. The side deck mounted tracks are a factory option. Check with Stan. Another possibility would be a barber hauler setup to get proper genoa sail trim when you don?t have inboard sheeting car positions. I have no experience with these. Check the sailing literature. Do you have a set of genoa telltales with windows mounted 8-12 inches aft of the genoa?s luff? My genoa has 3 of these windows and they are very helpful for determining proper genoa sail trim. You want to keep adjusting the genoa sheeting car position until the 3 sets of telltales are all streaming aft and they all break or stop streaming at the same time when you luff up or bear off the wind. Once you?ve determined that genoa sheeting car position; then, you can quit worrying about it because your rig is giving you all it?s got at that % of the genoa unfurled. Some people actually mark these genoa sheeting car positions so they can reproduce the settings as they furl and unfurl the genoa. But, here is what?s confusing me: At 130%, your boat has a smaller than ?normal? genoa. Most Rhodes 22?s were delivered with a 150% or even a 175% genoa. So, with a ?small? genoa, why does your boat have lee helm? Is there any chance your IMF mainsail is not fully unfurled? Does the outhaul pull the foot out nearly to the end of the boom? If you look inside the slot on the back of the mast, is there any mainsail still rolled up in there? In the picture, I can?t see enough of the mainsail to make any definitive comments about its state of trim. The point of maximum draft looks like it might be a little too far aft and too shallow for the light wind conditions. If true, this sort of mainsail shape will hamper your ability to point upwind and make the ?groove? narrower for the helmsman. The ?groove? is the range of ?acceptable? wind angles of attack between luffing the sails and stalling the sails. A narrow ?groove? makes the helmsman?s job more difficult because it?s harder to stay within a narrow range vs a broader range. But, with no battens, backwinding from the genoa, the worn out condition of the sail, and the limited view in the picture, it?s hard to say for sure. Maybe that?s just the best your IMF mainsail can do. Does your mainsail have a leech tensioning cord built into it? Overtightening the leech cord can cause the leech to curl. You want to tension the leech cord just enough to stop the leech from fluttering and no more. Other than that, I?m running out of suggestions. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 8:10:45 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? Mike, If you have lee helm with your mainsail fully deployed; then, you can balance the helm by lengthening the forestay. If your forestay does not have a turnbuckle or it is already fully extended; then, you could add a shackle to the top of the forestay. If you have a lot of lee helm, that will degrade your ability to point to weather. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2022, at 10:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: > > ?Roger, > > Thank you once again for your very comprehensive explanations and suggestions. > > My original question was regarding the routing of the jib sheets. As I mentioned, I moved them from outside the outer shrouds to between the inner and outer shrouds. This lets me sheet in the genoa a few inches closer to the centerline. I definitely notice a distinct improvement in windward performance. I was out sailing today and paid close attention to the details (winds ranged from zero to about 15 knots.) Attached is a picture I took. The genoa is sheeted in harder than it should be just to illustrate the maximum sheeting angle. > > My boat always has moderate to light lee helm. I had the backstay tension very tight but it still has lee helm until heeling very far. I plan on installing a longer forestay extension so I can rake the mast more. > > I do understand and actively use the traveler to help maintain sail shape. Unfortunately, my main always has a little curl in leech. My sailmaker told me it had gotten stretched out and couldn't be fixed easily, but he didn't think that it would greatly affect performance. I'm not so sure--what does the community think? > > Dennis McNeely's thoughts about weight distribution were interesting. I have nothing in my V-berth and most of my gear is under the cockpit seats or in the lazarette. That would make the boat stern heavy, but I don't see a good option for fixing that except for loading the bow with something heavy. Has anyone ever attempted that? > > Anyway, this is a great conversation! > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > Mike McKay > s/v Liber (2006/2018) > Allatoona Lake > Acworth, GA > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > Here?s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake. Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail, establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as possible. Take note of how much weather helm you have. Assuming you have the IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches. Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good as possible. You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral or even lee helm. Keep reducing mainsail area until you have eliminated all the weather helm. > > By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the rig. I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air. As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail. I won?t go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm. You counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail area. This moves the rig?s center of effort forward and reduces weather helm. You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance the helm. > > In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how the rig is tuned. The easiest point of reference is to have the rig tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman. So, even though the helmsman isn?t getting any feedback thru the tiller, he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go straight. As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced, the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build. The helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller. If the weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always be reduced to take the pressure off the tiller. Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing amount of drag. This slows the boat down and reduces pointing ability. Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel, centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the required lift for the boat to be able to point. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance? > > Mike, > > A couple of things to check: > > 1. Is your centerboard all the way down? > > 2. Is your rudder blade all the way down? > > 3. In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler to center the boom. Make certain the boom is not rising up and there isn?t too much curl on the leech. Make certain the mainsail foot out haul is tight. Without battens, there is only so much you can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best that is possible. > > 4. Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay. It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the forestay sag. Don?t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster. A mast head rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form an efficient slot with the mainsail. > > 5. Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the tension in the standing rigging. > > The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big sailing dingy, as upright as possible. There should be zero to very slight weather helm. If you have too much weather helm; then reduce the mast rake angle. ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck. > > My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather. > > Hopefully, these suggestions help. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> ?Hi All, >> >> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm starting to focus >> on getting the best performance out of her. While I mostly sail for fun, I >> do race every couple of weeks and want to be more competitive. In >> particular, I have found that she does not go to windward very well for me. >> >> >> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail. Until very recently, I have been >> routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and handrails. That >> limits how much I can trim the genoa. Consequently, I can only tack through >> about 100-120o. >> >> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds and the >> inner shrouds. That definitely improved my pointing ability significantly >> at the expense of less than optimal headsail shape on some off wind points >> of sail. However, this configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to >> wind strength and whether or not I am partially reefed. I think this will >> retain the ability to use a whisker pole on downwind legs. >> >> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat alternatives >> but using those would seem to require having a second set of jib sheets and >> probably going on the foredeck to switch between them after rounding a mark >> (I often race solo). Also, those options eliminate the ability to control >> the sheeting angle to the clew with the jib cars. >> >> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you have >> learned about how to optimize your boat's performance. >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Mike McKay >> s/v Liber (2006/2018) >> Allatoona Lake >> Acworth, GA >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: IMG_0566.JPG > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2486639 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sheets.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2286138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sea20 at verizon.net Wed Mar 23 09:58:38 2022 From: sea20 at verizon.net (Scott Andrews) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 09:58:38 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Upwind Performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E7C99BB-B581-4512-9792-D147D5C9BBE0@verizon.net> Indeed, my hiking out days are less each year! Scott & Rebecca Pantalaimon 86? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2022, at 6:54 AM, Jeff Smith Photo wrote: > > ?Crew weight is the best way to affect fore and aft trim. When I first got > the boat I would steer with my weight as forward as possible on the weather > gunwale, which was pretty uncomfortable with the winches, sailtrack and > Bimini frame. Now I have embraced the comfort of the Captains Chairs, > unless there is another boat in sight that I just have to beat... > > Best Regards > Jeff Smith > www.http://JeffSmithPhoto.Net > 732-236-1368 From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Wed Mar 23 10:00:11 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 14:00:11 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Painting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark, Looks like your guy, Tim Lackey, is making steady progress. When I do a big project, I try not to show my wife until near the end. Often, these projects look pretty awful for a long time before they start to look better. Deb gets depressed if I show her too big a mess! As an engineer, I?m used to being around projects that really tear up the site and take years to finish. So, it doesn?t bother me. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2022, at 10:21 PM, Mark Whipple wrote: > > ?In case you haven't been following the daily posts of the work being done > on my R22 by Tim Lackey, you may want to look at Monday's post > . Tim's a pretty down-to-business > guy so I was surprised to see that he posted a video of the first coat of > paint (top coat) going on with some random soothing music.Watching the > paint go on is one of those oddly satisfying things - at least it is for > me. I've done a fair amount of spray painting so it's a very > familiar process. Click the link to advance to Tuesday's post > with shiny pictures of the cured > paint. > > Mark > > Boston, MA > > 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 19:38:35 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:38:35 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Painting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing Mark. I had wondered what would be involved in painting the top sides and now I know a bit more from reading the blog. That's a big job. The write ups with the photos are great. I'm looking forward to seeing all the projects come together! Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 9:21 PM Mark Whipple wrote: > In case you haven't been following the daily posts of the work being done > on my R22 by Tim Lackey, you may want to look at Monday's post > . Tim's a pretty down-to-business > guy so I was surprised to see that he posted a video of the first coat of > paint (top coat) going on with some random soothing music.Watching the > paint go on is one of those oddly satisfying things - at least it is for > me. I've done a fair amount of spray painting so it's a very > familiar process. Click the link to advance to Tuesday's post > with shiny pictures of the cured > paint. > > Mark > > Boston, MA > > 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* > From ccowie at cowieassociates.com Thu Mar 24 09:54:17 2022 From: ccowie at cowieassociates.com (Chris Cowie) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:54:17 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Painting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Painting requires removal/replacement of hardware, prep work, multiple coats and a controlled environment. Enclosed is a sample progress and final painting of the hull and top side painted in a paint booth environment. Please note our new office address and phone number Christopher P. Cowie [cid:image001.png at 01CA3AD3.5BD581F0] [cid:image002.png at 01CA3AD3.5BD581F0] 4200 Massachusetts Ave NW 119 Washington DC 20016 703.717.9103 ex.204 ? 202.270.1470 mobile [ccowie at cowieassociates.com] ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 7:38 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Painting Thanks for sharing Mark. I had wondered what would be involved in painting the top sides and now I know a bit more from reading the blog. That's a big job. The write ups with the photos are great. I'm looking forward to seeing all the projects come together! Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 9:21 PM Mark Whipple wrote: > In case you haven't been following the daily posts of the work being done > on my R22 by Tim Lackey, you may want to look at Monday's post > . Tim's a pretty down-to-business > guy so I was surprised to see that he posted a video of the first coat of > paint (top coat) going on with some random soothing music.Watching the > paint go on is one of those oddly satisfying things - at least it is for > me. I've done a fair amount of spray painting so it's a very > familiar process. Click the link to advance to Tuesday's post > with shiny pictures of the cured > paint. > > Mark > > Boston, MA > > 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elle final.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 357994 bytes Desc: elle final.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elle painting.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 287623 bytes Desc: elle painting.jpg URL: From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Thu Mar 24 10:02:26 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:02:26 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Painting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <045f01d83f87$cb967640$62c362c0$@ca> Chris: Can you tell me how the windows were constructed on the boat in your photo? Are they fastened with bolts or just adhesive? Was getting them to accept a compound curve a problem or were they heat formed first? Thanks, Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cowie Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 9:54 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Painting Painting requires removal/replacement of hardware, prep work, multiple coats and a controlled environment. Enclosed is a sample progress and final painting of the hull and top side painted in a paint booth environment. Please note our new office address and phone number Christopher P. Cowie [cid:image001.png at 01CA3AD3.5BD581F0] [cid:image002.png at 01CA3AD3.5BD581F0] 4200 Massachusetts Ave NW 119 Washington DC 20016 703.717.9103 ex.204 ? 202.270.1470 mobile [ccowie at cowieassociates.com] ________________________________ From: Rhodes22-list on behalf of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 7:38 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Painting Thanks for sharing Mark. I had wondered what would be involved in painting the top sides and now I know a bit more from reading the blog. That's a big job. The write ups with the photos are great. I'm looking forward to seeing all the projects come together! Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 9:21 PM Mark Whipple wrote: > In case you haven't been following the daily posts of the work being done > on my R22 by Tim Lackey, you may want to look at Monday's post > . Tim's a pretty down-to-business > guy so I was surprised to see that he posted a video of the first coat of > paint (top coat) going on with some random soothing music.Watching the > paint go on is one of those oddly satisfying things - at least it is for > me. I've done a fair amount of spray painting so it's a very > familiar process. Click the link to advance to Tuesday's post > with shiny pictures of the cured > paint. > > Mark > > Boston, MA > > 2000 R22 *Luna Mia* > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elle final.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 357994 bytes Desc: elle final.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elle painting.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 287623 bytes Desc: elle painting.jpg URL: From rnelson204 at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 14:29:35 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (R Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:29:35 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Message-ID: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where is a good source to purchase them? Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? B. How much time should I budget for this repair? C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. Cheers, Rodney From retiredtoby at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 15:33:59 2022 From: retiredtoby at gmail.com (Cary Tolbert) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:33:59 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> Message-ID: Rodney, before you start tearing the boat apart you may want to check the sink drain connection. Been there. Cary Tolbert S/V Whisper '86 On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 2:29 PM R Brown wrote: > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and > the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this > year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the > gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to > a few threads on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was > built in 2001) > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about > the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where > is a good source to purchase them? > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience on > this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > Cheers, > > Rodney > > > > > > From peter at sunnybeeches.com Thu Mar 24 17:19:27 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:19:27 -0700 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Message-ID: Rodney, I have the same issue. I'm sure I have a leaking deck/hull joint on the port side, because I've found the inside of the hull wet on several occasions after a boisterous day of sailing. I'm not sure if I also have it the starboard side. I haven't done anything about it because: a) It's not that big a problem. A few minutes with a sponge and a bucket will remove most of the water from the bilge. Besides, as I've gained more sailing experience, I've gotten better at avoiding burying the rail. b) I'm afraid of attempting the project to fix it. The mystery of the rub-rail is a major factor in this. I've thought about attempting to seal the joint from the inside, but haven't taken that notion any further. Sorry I can't offer any insights. --Peter Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Thu Mar 24 21:12:55 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:12:55 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> Message-ID: <004401d83fe5$75ae7da0$610b78e0$@ca> Rodney: I did a complete repair of my hull deck joint a number of years ago. These were the steps I followed: * I removed the rub rail, destroying it in the process. * I cut the deck in half just fore of the cabin top, and removed the foredeck, * I removed the liner and the plywood core material from the foredeck and then rebuilt it with epoxy and multiple layers of marine plywood, * I reinstalled the deck with screws and filled and glassed the joint and gunnels to hide the join, * I tore out the complete interior of the boat and removed the liner where it overlaps the hull-deck joint so I had access to the joint from the inside, * I then and glassed the joint on the interior with multiple layers of cloth and epoxy, * I then removed all hardware from the deck and painted it with multiple coats of epoxy paint. While I was at that I replaced all of the windows. * Finally I then attached a new rub rail using sealant, and rivets. You might wonder if this was overkill but I assure you I no longer have that annoying trickle of water getting in. Ok, to be honest, I was doing a great deal more than just fixing a small leak. If I were addressing the problem you have I would be much more modest and not go to even the lengths you suggest. I would use whatever tools I had to scrape out as much of the sealant from the joint as possible and then reseal the joint with an appropriate sealant. Do NOT use 3M 5200 or similar. It will be impossible to remove in the future. You want to use a sealant that remains reasonably flexible, flows well into the joint, and is not a strong adhesive. Butyl might be a good choice. This is a one-day job unless you want to do what I did in which case it is a two year job - at least. Like Peter, I would not worry much about the odd trickle of water that come aboard when severely healed. The water is a nuisance but will not damage anything. If there are no other issues that need to be addressed I recommend that you just redo the sealant carefully and thoroughly and go sailing. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of R Brown Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where is a good source to purchase them? Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? B. How much time should I budget for this repair? C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. Cheers, Rodney From Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com Fri Mar 25 09:31:31 2022 From: Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:31:31 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled Message-ID: Hi All, As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it?s much more accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available surgical date is May 23rd. That?s 2 months away! I was supposed to be pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the situation, they wouldn?t bump me up in line. They did tell me they would call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. Oh well, at least I don?t have COVID! I?m scheduled to get a cortisone shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this summer. We?ll see how I?m doing by mid July; but, that?s awfully late in the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. Sigh, I?m bummed. I hope everybody else?s week is going better than this. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 09:53:54 2022 From: luis.guzman.ve at gmail.com (Luis Guzman) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reduced the price to 4K. Buy the engine and trailer, and get a Rhodes 22. The hubs were serviced by a professional. Ready to be towed anywhere. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:00 AM, Luis Guzman wrote: > > ?I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already have metal hips. > > It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new seal. I already have the material fir the seal. > > It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. > > There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. > > The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. I think My knees also need bearing replacement. > > It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. > > Asking 6k > > It is located in Bradenton, FL. > > If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com > > Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. > > Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat that provided many hours of pleasure. > > Sent from my iPhone From rlowe at vt.edu Fri Mar 25 11:24:52 2022 From: rlowe at vt.edu (Lowe, Rob) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:24:52 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> Message-ID: Rodney, I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of R Brown Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where is a good source to purchase them? Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? B. How much time should I budget for this repair? C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. Cheers, Rodney From rnelson204 at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 11:34:01 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (RODNEY BROWN) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 10:34:01 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> Message-ID: <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to test her out. Have a great weekend all, Rodney > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > Rodney, > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of R Brown > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where is a good source to purchase them? > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > Cheers, > > Rodney > > > > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Fri Mar 25 11:50:39 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:50:39 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007301d84060$14168d50$3c43a7f0$@ca> What a shame Roger. The older we get the more time we seem to spend waiting for things. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 9:32 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled Hi All, As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it's much more accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available surgical date is May 23rd. That's 2 months away! I was supposed to be pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the situation, they wouldn't bump me up in line. They did tell me they would call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. Oh well, at least I don't have COVID! I'm scheduled to get a cortisone shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this summer. We'll see how I'm doing by mid July; but, that's awfully late in the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. Sigh, I'm bummed. I hope everybody else's week is going better than this. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Fri Mar 25 11:52:22 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:52:22 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007401d84060$516fd030$f44f7090$@ca> That sounds like a very good deal to me. Maybe you should buy it from yourself. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Luis Guzman Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 9:54 AM To: Luis Guzman Cc: The Rhodes 22 mail list Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes 4 Sale Reduced the price to 4K. Buy the engine and trailer, and get a Rhodes 22. The hubs were serviced by a professional. Ready to be towed anywhere. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:00 AM, Luis Guzman wrote: > > ?I?m putting my ?83 Rhodes for sale. I?m moving to Mexico and I was planning on taking it with me. Though, my knees are failing, and I already have metal hips. > > It needs a new Jib furler, and bottom paint, the mast foot came off the last time the mast was stepped down, and the centerboard cap needs a new seal. I already have the material fir the seal. > > It has a 9Hp long shaft outboard with electric start and alternator to charge the battery. The engine only has a few hours of use. > > There is also a solar panel that was mounted on the stern rail, but the wood frame for it rotted. So, it needs a new frame. > > The trailer is a single axle trailer which might need bearing replacement. I think My knees also need bearing replacement. > > It does not have the IMF. It is the old style main. > > Asking 6k > > It is located in Bradenton, FL. > > If interested, please send me and email to luis.Guzman.ve at gmail.com > > Thank you to all the list members for all the tech tips posted on this group. I do not post often, but I enjoy reading every post. > > Also, I would like to thank Stan for the design of this wonderful boat that provided many hours of pleasure. > > Sent from my iPhone From brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 13:32:39 2022 From: brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com (Brian Ferguson) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:32:39 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement Message-ID: I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to the transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned about the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach it to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing it underneath/inside the lazarette. Thanks in advance, Brian NewIn76 Sumter, SC From richard.arking at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 14:03:36 2022 From: richard.arking at gmail.com (Richard Arking) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:03:36 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please see the current issue, April 2022, of Practical Sailor p 6 for ?More Reports of3M 4000 UV Failures?. This is based on PS?s own long term tests and numerous reports to PS by boat owners. 3M has offered no explanation to PS except that 4200 has (or will be) reformulated. Since there is no mention of a recall, I would not buy 4200 from existing stocks. PS has suggested Sika 291 as an alternative. On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will attempt > the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of stuff > apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to test her > out. > > Have a great weekend all, > > Rodney > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > Rodney, > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > Rob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of R > Brown > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and > the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this > year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the > gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on > this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about > the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where > is a good source to purchase them? > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience > on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcneelyd at site-solutions.com Fri Mar 25 14:20:50 2022 From: mcneelyd at site-solutions.com (Dennis McNeely) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:20:50 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401d84075$0efd9240$2cf8b6c0$@site-solutions.com> Hang with it Roger. Any day you're still upright and able to cast a shadow is a win - enjoy every one! Dennis -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 9:32 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled Hi All, As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it's much more accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available surgical date is May 23rd. That's 2 months away! I was supposed to be pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the situation, they wouldn't bump me up in line. They did tell me they would call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. Oh well, at least I don't have COVID! I'm scheduled to get a cortisone shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this summer. We'll see how I'm doing by mid July; but, that's awfully late in the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. Sigh, I'm bummed. I hope everybody else's week is going better than this. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From rnelson204 at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 15:35:37 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (RODNEY BROWN) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:35:37 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thx Richard, interesting read, and thanks for the heads up. Im wondering is there is a problem extends to the entire 4000 series, including the 4200 formulation, or is it just the 4000UV? > On Mar 25, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Richard Arking wrote: > > Please see the current issue, April 2022, of > Practical Sailor p 6 for ?More Reports of3M 4000 UV Failures?. This is > based on PS?s own long term tests and numerous reports to PS by boat > owners. 3M has offered no explanation to PS except that 4200 has (or will > be) reformulated. Since there is no mention of a recall, I would not buy > 4200 from existing stocks. PS has suggested Sika 291 as an alternative. > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > >> Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will attempt >> the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of stuff >> apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to test her >> out. >> >> Have a great weekend all, >> >> Rodney >> >>> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: >>> >>> Rodney, >>> I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun >> and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a >> silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of R >> Brown >>> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM >>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question >>> >>> Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and >> the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this >> year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the >> gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on >> this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) >>> >>> >>> A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of >> drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. >>> >>> Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about >> the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? >>> Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where >> is a good source to purchase them? >>> Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? >>> >>> B. How much time should I budget for this repair? >>> >>> C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience >> on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Rodney >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> From snstaum at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 16:00:16 2022 From: snstaum at gmail.com (Stephen Staum) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 16:00:16 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry that the system worked against you. I hope you have a quick recovery & can salvage your sailing season! Stephen Staum s/v Pinafore Needham, MA On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 6:31 AM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Hi All, > > As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee > replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. > But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning > of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they > sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it > might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for > a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central > lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it?s much more > accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came > back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a > huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this > stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available > surgical date is May 23rd. That?s 2 months away! I was supposed to be > pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the > situation, they wouldn?t bump me up in line. They did tell me they would > call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. > > Oh well, at least I don?t have COVID! I?m scheduled to get a cortisone > shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. > > This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this > summer. We?ll see how I?m doing by mid July; but, that?s awfully late in > the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. > > Sigh, I?m bummed. I hope everybody else?s week is going better than this. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > -- Thanks and Stay Well, Stephen Staum Pariser Industries, Inc. From joedempsey at hughes.net Fri Mar 25 20:46:14 2022 From: joedempsey at hughes.net (joedempsey) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 20:46:14 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair Message-ID: Rodney,Also check your fresh water tank. Empty it before you go out one time and see if you still have a wet bilge afterwards. (Be sure you bury your rails!)Joe DempseySV RespiteDeltaville, VASent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone From joedempsey at hughes.net Fri Mar 25 21:08:54 2022 From: joedempsey at hughes.net (joedempsey) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 21:08:54 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair Message-ID: Rodney,Before you caulk the seam, get a Dremel tool and a cutting wheel and cut out as much of the old caulk out of the joint. (You'll have to remove the two piece rub rail and insert. I can give you part numbers to replace them. They are by Taco Marine, but you'll have to buy from a marine supply house). Cutting the groove will give you a better chance of sealing and give your sealant more tooth to stick to, rather than just a topical application. Just a suggestion.Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 5G, an AT&T? From peter at sunnybeeches.com Fri Mar 25 21:25:51 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 18:25:51 -0700 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair Message-ID: Joe, If you know the appropriate part numbers, please post them. If you know of a supplier who will deal in a quantity suitable for one 22 foot boat, please share that as well. Thanks, --Peter > On 2022-03-25, at 21:08:54 EDT, joedempsey wrote: > > Rodney,Before you caulk the seam, get a Dremel tool and a cutting wheel and cut > out as much of the old caulk out of the joint. (You'll have to remove the two > piece rub rail and insert. I can give you part numbers to replace them. They are > by Taco Marine, but you'll have to buy from a marine supply house). Cutting the > groove will give you a better chance of sealing and give your sealant more tooth > to stick to, rather than just a topical application. Just a suggestion.Sent via > the Samsung Galaxy S22 5G, an AT&T > From chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 21:55:30 2022 From: chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com (Chris Geankoplis) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 21:55:30 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: <007301d84060$14168d50$3c43a7f0$@ca> References: <007301d84060$14168d50$3c43a7f0$@ca> Message-ID: Bummer. On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 11:50 AM Graham Stewart wrote: > What a shame Roger. The older we get the more time we seem to spend waiting > for things. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of > ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 9:32 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled > > Hi All, > > As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee > replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. > But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning > of > the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they sent > me > home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it might > have > been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for a Cobas > 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central lab > facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it's much more accurate > vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came back > negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a huge > backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this stupid > unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available surgical > date is May 23rd. That's 2 months away! I was supposed to be pretty much > recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the situation, > they > wouldn't bump me up in line. They did tell me they would call me if there > was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. > > Oh well, at least I don't have COVID! I'm scheduled to get a cortisone > shot > in my left knee next week, which should help a little. > > This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this > summer. We'll see how I'm doing by mid July; but, that's awfully late in > the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. > > Sigh, I'm bummed. I hope everybody else's week is going better than this. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From rnelson204 at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 22:02:06 2022 From: rnelson204 at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 21:02:06 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E010C3D-C1F9-4253-9ED7-7A9C2C3B7460@gmail.com> Joe appreciate the offer on the parts numbers, thx sir ? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 25, 2022, at 20:09, joedempsey wrote: > > ?Rodney,Before you caulk the seam, get a Dremel tool and a cutting wheel and cut out as much of the old caulk out of the joint. (You'll have to remove the two piece rub rail and insert. I can give you part numbers to replace them. They are by Taco Marine, but you'll have to buy from a marine supply house). Cutting the groove will give you a better chance of sealing and give your sealant more tooth to stick to, rather than just a topical application. Just a suggestion.Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 5G, an AT&T From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Fri Mar 25 22:19:34 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 22:19:34 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> Hi Brian: What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted drain that never gets plugged. I have attached a few pictures. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Brian Ferguson Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to the transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned about the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach it to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing it underneath/inside the lazarette. Thanks in advance, Brian NewIn76 Sumter, SC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Scupper (1).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 108812 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 74299 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17887 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deck scupper installed.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30572 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deck scupper underside.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 63406 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tvpolise at aol.com Sat Mar 26 13:06:55 2022 From: tvpolise at aol.com (THOMAS POLISE) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:06:55 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib T track replacement References: <3BAD61A6-4BD4-451B-A203-A923362D1C76.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BAD61A6-4BD4-451B-A203-A923362D1C76@aol.com> Has anyone replace the jib track? I removed my old track (which was bent when I installed a sliding cleat on it) and the bolts through the track appear to be just expoxyed through the deck. My questions are all boats built this way or do I need to get some backing and nuts (which would be extremely difficult) under track? If just expoyed, what epoxy is recommended? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: View recent photos.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 481627 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Sat Mar 26 13:10:57 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 17:10:57 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. I would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have good resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of paint over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: > > ?Hi Brian: > What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. > > I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted drain that never gets plugged. > > I have attached a few pictures. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Brian Ferguson > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 > came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to the > transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and > opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned about > the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. > My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach it > to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing it > underneath/inside the lazarette. > Thanks in advance, > > Brian > > NewIn76 > Sumter, SC > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Scupper (1).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 108812 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 74299 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 17887 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: deck scupper installed.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30572 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: deck scupper underside.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 63406 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From peter at sunnybeeches.com Sat Mar 26 13:38:31 2022 From: peter at sunnybeeches.com (Peter Nyberg) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:38:31 -0700 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib T track replacement Message-ID: I've never replaced the T track, but I have removed a few of the bolt that hold it in place for reasons I can no longer recall. In my case, the bolts go into threaded holes in the fiberglass. When reinstalling the bolts, I just threaded them back into the holes they came out of, and tightened them firmly, but gently. If your holes have no threads, then I would think you need backing washers and nuts. --Peter Coventry, CT s/v Silverheels (1988/2016) > On 2022-03-26, at 13:06:55 EDT, THOMAS POLISE wrote: > > Has anyone replace the jib track? I removed my old track (which was bent when > I installed a sliding cleat on it) and the bolts through the track appear to be > just expoxyed through the deck. My questions are all boats built this way or do > I need to get some backing and nuts (which would be extremely difficult) under > track? If just expoyed, what epoxy is recommended? > > > href="http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220326/f15c66c8/attachment.jpe" > target="_blank">View recent photos.png > -------------- next part -------------- > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Sat Mar 26 13:39:05 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:39:05 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib T track replacement In-Reply-To: <3BAD61A6-4BD4-451B-A203-A923362D1C76@aol.com> References: <3BAD61A6-4BD4-451B-A203-A923362D1C76.ref@aol.com> <3BAD61A6-4BD4-451B-A203-A923362D1C76@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ab01d84138$6463dd70$2d2b9850$@ca> Thomas: If your boat is like mine (76) the track is bolted to the deck directly. The bolts thread into the fiberglass with no backing washers or nuts. Because 1976 boats were built by outside contractors many shortcuts were made and I assumed that this was one of them but learned much later that this is how Stan built them. It didn't look adequate to me - even though it had lasted 40 years without obvious problem - so I drilled the holes to accept bolts, used longer bolts and re-attached the tracks with washers and locknuts I removed the tracks because I was painting the deck and cockpit. One thing I noticed was that there were spider cracks around all of the holes that were not visible when the track was in place. It is good practice I think to countersink holes through fiberglass slightly so the gel coat does not crack. If I were to replace the bolts without nuts or washers I would use some sealant on the threads as there might be a greater chance of leaking or loosening once the bolts had been removed. However my obsessive nature would probably drive me to add the nuts and washers. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:07 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib T track replacement Has anyone replace the jib track? I removed my old track (which was bent when I installed a sliding cleat on it) and the bolts through the track appear to be just expoxyed through the deck. My questions are all boats built this way or do I need to get some backing and nuts (which would be extremely difficult) under track? If just expoyed, what epoxy is recommended? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: View recent photos.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 481627 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Sat Mar 26 13:41:13 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:41:13 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> Message-ID: <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have mentioned that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement Hi Brian, I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. I would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have good resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of paint over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: > > ?Hi Brian: > What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. > > I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted drain that never gets plugged. > > I have attached a few pictures. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Brian Ferguson > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 > came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to the > transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and > opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned about > the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. > My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach it > to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing it > underneath/inside the lazarette. > Thanks in advance, > > Brian > > NewIn76 > Sumter, SC > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Scupper (1).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 108812 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 74299 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 17887 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: deck scupper installed.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 30572 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: deck scupper underside.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 63406 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Sat Mar 26 13:47:37 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 17:47:37 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> Message-ID: Graham, You always were an overachiever! Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 26, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: > > ?Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have mentioned that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > Hi Brian, > > I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. I would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have good resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of paint over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: >> >> ?Hi Brian: >> What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. >> >> I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted drain that never gets plugged. >> >> I have attached a few pictures. >> >> Graham Stewart >> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 >> Kingston Ontario >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Brian Ferguson >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement >> >> I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 >> came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to the >> transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and >> opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned about >> the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. >> My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach it >> to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing it >> underneath/inside the lazarette. >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Brian >> >> NewIn76 >> Sumter, SC >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Scupper (1).jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 108812 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 74299 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 17887 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: deck scupper installed.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 30572 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: deck scupper underside.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 63406 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: > From tvpolise at aol.com Sat Mar 26 16:08:56 2022 From: tvpolise at aol.com (THOMAS POLISE) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 16:08:56 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. References: Message-ID: If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which seems like a difficult task? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: View recent photos.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 327074 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Sat Mar 26 19:24:21 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 19:24:21 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> Message-ID: <010c01d84168$9fe970f0$dfbc52d0$@ca> Roger: Perhaps I should have pointed out that I replaced the deck drains because I was planning to paint the boat rather than imply that I painted the boat because I changed the cockpit drains. Graham Stewart gstewart8 at cogeco.ca -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:48 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement Graham, You always were an overachiever! Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 26, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: > > ?Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have mentioned that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > Hi Brian, > > I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. I would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have good resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of paint over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: >> >> ?Hi Brian: >> What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. >> >> I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted drain that never gets plugged. >> >> I have attached a few pictures. >> >> Graham Stewart >> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 >> Kingston Ontario >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Brian Ferguson >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement >> >> I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 >> came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to the >> transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and >> opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned about >> the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. >> My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach it >> to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing it >> underneath/inside the lazarette. >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Brian >> >> NewIn76 >> Sumter, SC >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Scupper (1).jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 108812 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 74299 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 17887 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: deck scupper installed.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 30572 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: deck scupper underside.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 63406 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: > From chcarreon at cox.net Sun Mar 27 13:05:31 2022 From: chcarreon at cox.net (chuy carreon) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 13:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care and drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should have used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what that would have been. All is holding well. Good luck. Chuy 1987 AfterMath > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to test her out. > > Have a great weekend all, > > Rodney > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > Rodney, > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > Rob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of R Brown > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, where is a good source to purchase them? > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Sun Mar 27 19:35:57 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:35:57 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Thomas, I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 years since then. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which seems like a difficult task? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: View recent photos.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 327074 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 20:34:46 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 19:34:46 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> Message-ID: I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I ever had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care and > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should have > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what > that would have been. All is holding well. > > Good luck. > Chuy > 1987 AfterMath > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > test her out. > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > Rodney > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > Rodney, > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > R Brown > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 20:42:31 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 19:42:31 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: <010c01d84168$9fe970f0$dfbc52d0$@ca> References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> <010c01d84168$9fe970f0$dfbc52d0$@ca> Message-ID: Graham, your reply had me laughing since my projects usually go the opposite way. I start on one project, which leads to another (probably bigger project), and suddenly I've decided to tackle a bunch more things while I'm at it. You seemed to have planned upfront to take on everything right up front. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 6:24 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Roger: > Perhaps I should have pointed out that I replaced the deck drains because > I was planning to paint the boat rather than imply that I painted the boat > because I changed the cockpit drains. > > Graham Stewart > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:48 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > Graham, > > You always were an overachiever! > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 26, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: > > > > ?Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have mentioned > that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. > > > > Graham Stewart > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. I > would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have good > resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of paint > over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart > wrote: > >> > >> ?Hi Brian: > >> What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 > and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with > leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom > thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. > >> > >> I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull > and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I > covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and > reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the > proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the > scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted > drain that never gets plugged. > >> > >> I have attached a few pictures. > >> > >> Graham Stewart > >> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > >> Kingston Ontario > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf Of Brian Ferguson > >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > >> > >> I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 > >> came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to > the > >> transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and > >> opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned > about > >> the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. > >> My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach > it > >> to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing > it > >> underneath/inside the lazarette. > >> Thanks in advance, > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> NewIn76 > >> Sumter, SC > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: Scupper (1).jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 108812 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n4qpjHOhZqkMtIYXGxT6w67i4pBkDjxyQNkKQjmyz0A%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 74299 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0001.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hWHgACUGxhSa%2FwfqYdqqhB4xs4%2BoeUwIdi8lxt%2FnQTc%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 17887 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0002.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BiOs3F%2FAma6ZTLmtPYQj1zpuV2jSSnMypKrBCWFNzMM%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: deck scupper installed.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 30572 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0003.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XG0jd%2FItMAWeHM%2Fftk%2FJPe7x6%2B1PkoFML9%2BQ395cmek%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: deck scupper underside.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 63406 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0004.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ehH1gLeQczV7aAE81wNJA0ni%2B3eXLQVgqE9iK%2FM5B%2FE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 20:45:10 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 19:45:10 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Roger, that's too bad about the rescheduling. Hopefully your new surgery date holds and you're back on the water sooner rather than later. We all enjoy hearing about your adventures. I guess you'll be giving some time for the water to warm up for a midsummer adventure up north. Jesse On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 8:31 AM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Hi All, > > As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee > replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. > But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning > of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they > sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it > might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for > a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central > lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it?s much more > accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came > back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a > huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this > stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available > surgical date is May 23rd. That?s 2 months away! I was supposed to be > pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the > situation, they wouldn?t bump me up in line. They did tell me they would > call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. > > Oh well, at least I don?t have COVID! I?m scheduled to get a cortisone > shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. > > This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this > summer. We?ll see how I?m doing by mid July; but, that?s awfully late in > the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. > > Sigh, I?m bummed. I hope everybody else?s week is going better than this. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Sun Mar 27 21:18:10 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:18:10 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> <010c01d84168$9fe970f0$dfbc52d0$@ca> Message-ID: <012d01d84241$b9e28fd0$2da7af70$@ca> Jesse : If I knew where these projects would lead I probably would known better than to start. My 6 year reconstruction project started with trying to fix a soft spot on the deck. Once you start taking things apart you keep finding other problems that also need to be fixed and you can end up going backwards for years before things begin to move forward. My wife was sure that I had utterly destroyed the boat and would never complete the restoration. I had a few moments when I thought the same thing. Graham Stewart gstewart8 at cogeco.ca -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:43 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement Graham, your reply had me laughing since my projects usually go the opposite way. I start on one project, which leads to another (probably bigger project), and suddenly I've decided to tackle a bunch more things while I'm at it. You seemed to have planned upfront to take on everything right up front. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 6:24 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Roger: > Perhaps I should have pointed out that I replaced the deck drains because > I was planning to paint the boat rather than imply that I painted the boat > because I changed the cockpit drains. > > Graham Stewart > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of ROGER PIHLAJA > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:48 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > Graham, > > You always were an overachiever! > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 26, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Graham Stewart wrote: > > > > ?Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have mentioned > that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. > > > > Graham Stewart > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. I > would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have good > resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of paint > over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart > wrote: > >> > >> ?Hi Brian: > >> What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 > and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with > leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the mushroom > thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. > >> > >> I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull > and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the scupper I > covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and > reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the > proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset the > scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush mounted > drain that never gets plugged. > >> > >> I have attached a few pictures. > >> > >> Graham Stewart > >> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > >> Kingston Ontario > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf Of Brian Ferguson > >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > >> > >> I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My '76 > >> came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to > the > >> transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube and > >> opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned > about > >> the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. > >> My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach > it > >> to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and fiberglassing > it > >> underneath/inside the lazarette. > >> Thanks in advance, > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> NewIn76 > >> Sumter, SC > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: Scupper (1).jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 108812 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n4qpjHOhZqkMtIYXGxT6w67i4pBkDjxyQNkKQjmyz0A%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 74299 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0001.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hWHgACUGxhSa%2FwfqYdqqhB4xs4%2BoeUwIdi8lxt%2FnQTc%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 17887 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0002.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BiOs3F%2FAma6ZTLmtPYQj1zpuV2jSSnMypKrBCWFNzMM%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: deck scupper installed.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 30572 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0003.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XG0jd%2FItMAWeHM%2Fftk%2FJPe7x6%2B1PkoFML9%2BQ395cmek%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> Name: deck scupper underside.jpg > >> Type: image/jpeg > >> Size: 63406 bytes > >> Desc: not available > >> URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0004.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ehH1gLeQczV7aAE81wNJA0ni%2B3eXLQVgqE9iK%2FM5B%2FE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Sun Mar 27 21:36:00 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:36:00 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> Message-ID: <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> Can't say I have many pictures of the fix for the hull-deck joint repair but have attached what I have. As I mentioned before I cut back the flange on the upper liner so I could get access to the inside joint which I then filled with thickend epoxy and covered with several layers of fiberglass cloth. That made the whole boat more rigid and certainly stopped any leaks but, like most of what I did, was grand overkill. I used simple tools to remove the old sealant after removing the old rub rail. I don't think it is possible to remove the rub rail without destroying it. The new rub rail was made by Tessilmayer. The new rail cap goes over a track that was screwed and riveted through the joint. Why did I use both screws and rivets? God knows. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:35 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I ever had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. Jesse Shumaker S/V Zephyr On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care and > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should have > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what > that would have been. All is holding well. > > Good luck. > Chuy > 1987 AfterMath > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN wrote: > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > test her out. > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > Rodney > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > Rodney, > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't use a > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of > R Brown > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tools for removing sealant in hull deck joint June 2016 (3).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1935155 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009 (3).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40146 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38901 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Reb rail installed- Tessilmare July 2016.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 125435 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 22:29:11 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (Michael McKay) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:29:11 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Roger, The good news is that you may be back on your feet faster than you thought possible. A 78 year old friend of the family had a knee replacement last Wednesday morning. He walked out of the hospital Wednesday afternoon and is total independent as of today! He has very little pain. There?s still PT of course, but the new protocols are amazing. Good luck?I hope you do even better. Mike Michael McKay (630) 209-2054 (m) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 27, 2022, at 8:45 PM, Jesse Shumaker wrote: > > ?Roger, that's too bad about the rescheduling. Hopefully your new surgery > date holds and you're back on the water sooner rather than later. We all > enjoy hearing about your adventures. I guess you'll be giving some time > for the water to warm up for a midsummer adventure up north. > > Jesse > >> On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 8:31 AM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee >> replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. >> But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning >> of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they >> sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it >> might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for >> a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central >> lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it?s much more >> accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came >> back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a >> huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this >> stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available >> surgical date is May 23rd. That?s 2 months away! I was supposed to be >> pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the >> situation, they wouldn?t bump me up in line. They did tell me they would >> call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. >> >> Oh well, at least I don?t have COVID! I?m scheduled to get a cortisone >> shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. >> >> This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this >> summer. We?ll see how I?m doing by mid July; but, that?s awfully late in >> the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. >> >> Sigh, I?m bummed. I hope everybody else?s week is going better than this. >> >> Roger Pihlaja >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows >> >> From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 07:55:21 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 06:55:21 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: <012d01d84241$b9e28fd0$2da7af70$@ca> References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> <010c01d84168$9fe970f0$dfbc52d0$@ca> <012d01d84241$b9e28fd0$2da7af70$@ca> Message-ID: Ha, I know what you mean. If anyone sees my boat while I have several winter projects underway, it would be embarrassing. Until the cleanup happens it can look like there's no way back to a respectable shape in the foreseeable future. On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:18 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Jesse : > > If I knew where these projects would lead I probably would known better > than to start. My 6 year reconstruction project started with trying to fix > a soft spot on the deck. Once you start taking things apart you keep > finding other problems that also need to be fixed and you can end up going > backwards for years before things begin to move forward. My wife was sure > that I had utterly destroyed the boat and would never complete the > restoration. I had a few moments when I thought the same thing. > > Graham Stewart > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of Jesse Shumaker > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:43 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > Graham, your reply had me laughing since my projects usually go the > opposite way. I start on one project, which leads to another (probably > bigger project), and suddenly I've decided to tackle a bunch more things > while I'm at it. You seemed to have planned upfront to take on everything > right up front. > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 6:24 PM Graham Stewart > wrote: > > > Roger: > > Perhaps I should have pointed out that I replaced the deck drains because > > I was planning to paint the boat rather than imply that I painted the > boat > > because I changed the cockpit drains. > > > > Graham Stewart > > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf > > Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:48 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > Graham, > > > > You always were an overachiever! > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Mar 26, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Graham Stewart > wrote: > > > > > > ?Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have > mentioned > > that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. > > > > > > Graham Stewart > > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > > Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. > I > > would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have > good > > resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of > paint > > over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart > > wrote: > > >> > > >> ?Hi Brian: > > >> What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 > > and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with > > leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the > mushroom > > thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. > > >> > > >> I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull > > and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the > scupper I > > covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and > > reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the > > proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset > the > > scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush > mounted > > drain that never gets plugged. > > >> > > >> I have attached a few pictures. > > >> > > >> Graham Stewart > > >> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > >> Kingston Ontario > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > > Behalf Of Brian Ferguson > > >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > >> > > >> I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My > '76 > > >> came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run to > > the > > >> transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube > and > > >> opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned > > about > > >> the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. > > >> My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to attach > > it > > >> to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and > fiberglassing > > it > > >> underneath/inside the lazarette. > > >> Thanks in advance, > > >> > > >> Brian > > >> > > >> NewIn76 > > >> Sumter, SC > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > >> Name: Scupper (1).jpg > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > >> Size: 108812 bytes > > >> Desc: not available > > >> URL: < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n4qpjHOhZqkMtIYXGxT6w67i4pBkDjxyQNkKQjmyz0A%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > >> Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > >> Size: 74299 bytes > > >> Desc: not available > > >> URL: < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0001.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hWHgACUGxhSa%2FwfqYdqqhB4xs4%2BoeUwIdi8lxt%2FnQTc%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > >> Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > >> Size: 17887 bytes > > >> Desc: not available > > >> URL: < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0002.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BiOs3F%2FAma6ZTLmtPYQj1zpuV2jSSnMypKrBCWFNzMM%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > >> Name: deck scupper installed.jpg > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > >> Size: 30572 bytes > > >> Desc: not available > > >> URL: < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0003.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XG0jd%2FItMAWeHM%2Fftk%2FJPe7x6%2B1PkoFML9%2BQ395cmek%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > >> Name: deck scupper underside.jpg > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > >> Size: 63406 bytes > > >> Desc: not available > > >> URL: < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0004.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ehH1gLeQczV7aAE81wNJA0ni%2B3eXLQVgqE9iK%2FM5B%2FE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 08:01:13 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:01:13 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> Message-ID: Thanks for the photos Graham. One of your photos sparked another question, did you tackle the paint job for the top sides yourself? It looks like it came out very well. If I recall correctly from a previous post, you addressed some issues on the bottom, then applied an epoxy barrier coat before putting on bottom paint. I think that post was when you explained your "boat gallows" setup to hoist the boat. I wasn't sure if you painted the top sides yourself as well. Jesse On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:36 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Can't say I have many pictures of the fix for the hull-deck joint repair > but have attached what I have. As I mentioned before I cut back the flange > on the upper liner so I could get access to the inside joint which I then > filled with thickend epoxy and covered with several layers of fiberglass > cloth. That made the whole boat more rigid and certainly stopped any leaks > but, like most of what I did, was grand overkill. > > I used simple tools to remove the old sealant after removing the old rub > rail. I don't think it is possible to remove the rub rail without > destroying it. The new rub rail was made by Tessilmayer. The new rail cap > goes over a track that was screwed and riveted through the joint. Why did I > use both screws and rivets? God knows. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of Jesse Shumaker > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:35 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about > the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I ever > had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if > Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. > Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > > > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care > and > > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should > have > > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what > > that would have been. All is holding well. > > > > Good luck. > > Chuy > > 1987 AfterMath > > > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of > > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > > test her out. > > > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > Rodney, > > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't > use a > > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf > Of > > R Brown > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, > > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint > > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when > > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads > > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: tools for removing sealant in hull deck joint June 2016 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 1935155 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 40146 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0001.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 38901 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0002.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Reb rail installed- Tessilmare July 2016.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 125435 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0003.jpg > > > From brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 08:58:09 2022 From: brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com (Brian Ferguson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:09 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement In-Reply-To: References: <009801d840b7$efc04e20$cf40ea60$@ca> <00ac01d84138$b0c871d0$12595570$@ca> <010c01d84168$9fe970f0$dfbc52d0$@ca> <012d01d84241$b9e28fd0$2da7af70$@ca> Message-ID: Graham, Thanks for the pictures and explanation. It actually makes so much sense. I was actually trying to see if I could make it happen with a thru-hull, but the scupper you showed with the different profile is definitely what I'm looking for. I was overthinking it and thought of attaching it somehow underneath. To Jesse and Roger, yes, this started as a smaller project and then built up momentum. I'd like to be done in under six years though. For what it's worth I discovered that some of my ballast is made up of lead wheel weights. Found those when I was "screwdriver-checking" the stringers in the bilge. On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 7:55 AM Jesse Shumaker < jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > Ha, I know what you mean. If anyone sees my boat while I have several > winter projects underway, it would be embarrassing. Until the cleanup > happens it can look like there's no way back to a respectable shape in the > foreseeable future. > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:18 PM Graham Stewart > wrote: > > > Jesse : > > > > If I knew where these projects would lead I probably would known better > > than to start. My 6 year reconstruction project started with trying to > fix > > a soft spot on the deck. Once you start taking things apart you keep > > finding other problems that also need to be fixed and you can end up > going > > backwards for years before things begin to move forward. My wife was sure > > that I had utterly destroyed the boat and would never complete the > > restoration. I had a few moments when I thought the same thing. > > > > Graham Stewart > > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf > > Of Jesse Shumaker > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:43 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > Graham, your reply had me laughing since my projects usually go the > > opposite way. I start on one project, which leads to another (probably > > bigger project), and suddenly I've decided to tackle a bunch more things > > while I'm at it. You seemed to have planned upfront to take on > everything > > right up front. > > > > Jesse Shumaker > > S/V Zephyr > > > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 6:24 PM Graham Stewart > > wrote: > > > > > Roger: > > > Perhaps I should have pointed out that I replaced the deck drains > because > > > I was planning to paint the boat rather than imply that I painted the > > boat > > > because I changed the cockpit drains. > > > > > > Graham Stewart > > > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > > Behalf > > > Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:48 PM > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > > > Graham, > > > > > > You always were an overachiever! > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Mar 26, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Graham Stewart > > wrote: > > > > > > > > ?Roger is absolutely right about painting epoxy. I should have > > mentioned > > > that. In this case I painted the entire deck and cockpit. > > > > > > > > Graham Stewart > > > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > > > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > > > Behalf Of ROGER PIHLAJA > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:11 PM > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > > > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > > I did something similar with the cockpit seat drains on my Rhodes 22. > > I > > > would add one thing to what Graham is proposing. Epoxy does not have > > good > > > resistance to UV. Therefore, it is important that you put a coat of > > paint > > > over the exposed epoxy around the thru hull. > > > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > >> On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Graham Stewart > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> ?Hi Brian: > > > >> What you saw was probably my post quite a few years ago. I have a 76 > > > and found the drains to be inadequate as they would quickly fill with > > > leaves. Also the depression around the thruhull combined with the > > mushroom > > > thru-hull caught water that did not drain and left a stain. > > > >> > > > >> I replaced the 3.4" thru-hull in the transom with a 1 1/2' thru-hull > > > and the one in the cockpit with a flush mount scupper. To set the > > scupper I > > > covered the scupper with plastic wrap, placed it in the enlarged and > > > reinforced hole and filled the depression with epoxy/filler to get the > > > proper shape. I then removed the scupper, removed the plastic and reset > > the > > > scupper back into the hole with sealant. That gave me a nice flush > > mounted > > > drain that never gets plugged. > > > >> > > > >> I have attached a few pictures. > > > >> > > > >> Graham Stewart > > > >> Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > > >> Kingston Ontario > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > > > Behalf Of Brian Ferguson > > > >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 1:33 PM > > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Seat Drains Replacement > > > >> > > > >> I've searched the archives for this, but came up slim on details. My > > '76 > > > >> came with cockpit seat drains that were probably 3/4 inch hoses run > to > > > the > > > >> transom. I read in the archives that someone used a larger hose/tube > > and > > > >> opened the hole in the seat to a larger diameter. I'm not concerned > > > about > > > >> the transom opening, it's the seat drain where I need the help. > > > >> My questions is what would you use to create a drain and how to > attach > > > it > > > >> to the seat mold. I was thinking of using a thru-hull and > > fiberglassing > > > it > > > >> underneath/inside the lazarette. > > > >> Thanks in advance, > > > >> > > > >> Brian > > > >> > > > >> NewIn76 > > > >> Sumter, SC > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> Name: Scupper (1).jpg > > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > > >> Size: 108812 bytes > > > >> Desc: not available > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n4qpjHOhZqkMtIYXGxT6w67i4pBkDjxyQNkKQjmyz0A%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> Name: Cockpit drains wrapped.jpg > > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > > >> Size: 74299 bytes > > > >> Desc: not available > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0001.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hWHgACUGxhSa%2FwfqYdqqhB4xs4%2BoeUwIdi8lxt%2FnQTc%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> Name: Cockpit drain rebuilt September 2013 b.jpg > > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > > >> Size: 17887 bytes > > > >> Desc: not available > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0002.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BiOs3F%2FAma6ZTLmtPYQj1zpuV2jSSnMypKrBCWFNzMM%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> Name: deck scupper installed.jpg > > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > > >> Size: 30572 bytes > > > >> Desc: not available > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0003.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XG0jd%2FItMAWeHM%2Fftk%2FJPe7x6%2B1PkoFML9%2BQ395cmek%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> Name: deck scupper underside.jpg > > > >> Type: image/jpeg > > > >> Size: 63406 bytes > > > >> Desc: not available > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220325%2F4ceeb96d%2Fattachment-0004.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfe7a2330d47d4b4f0c7c08da0f4fd60a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839132830251364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ehH1gLeQczV7aAE81wNJA0ni%2B3eXLQVgqE9iK%2FM5B%2FE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 09:42:59 2022 From: brian.a.ferguson76 at gmail.com (Brian Ferguson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:42:59 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] General Boats Corral list Message-ID: Stan used to have a list of boats in various conditions on the UsedRhodes.com website. Anyone know what is sitting in the corral now? The more I've been calculating costs and projects, and I am starting to think that Stan has something better for me even if it still requires some tweaking. So second question, and Stan if you're on here I'd appreciate your thoughts. Should I bring my boat to you for parts/trade-in or part it out and use that money for a down payment? I'm not sailing anytime soon so parting my boat out now and buying a more sailable boat from Stan doesn't change the timeline much. From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Mon Mar 28 10:22:40 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:22:40 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Left Knee Replacement Got Delayed & Rescheduled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael, When I had my right knee replacement last November, they had me up and walking with a walker the next morning. I had PT for 6 weeks at 3 sessions/week. The first 3 weeks were pretty awful. But, then I was able to quit using the walker and the PT got easier. Near the end, the PT sessions were focusing on style, walking without a limp, getting in and out of a car gracefully, etc. At the end of my PT sessions, I could ride a bicycle, go up and down stairs, and bend the knee thru 115 deg. I pretty much know what to expect and agree it?s amazing technology. Now, if only the same hospital would quit turning patients away because of a test that?s only right 52% of the time for people with no Covid symptoms! Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 27, 2022, at 10:29 PM, Michael McKay wrote: > > ?Roger, > > The good news is that you may be back on your feet faster than you thought possible. A 78 year old friend of the family had a knee replacement last Wednesday morning. He walked out of the hospital Wednesday afternoon and is total independent as of today! He has very little pain. There?s still PT of course, but the new protocols are amazing. > > Good luck?I hope you do even better. > > Mike > > Michael McKay > (630) 209-2054 (m) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 27, 2022, at 8:45 PM, Jesse Shumaker wrote: >> >> ?Roger, that's too bad about the rescheduling. Hopefully your new surgery >> date holds and you're back on the water sooner rather than later. We all >> enjoy hearing about your adventures. I guess you'll be giving some time >> for the water to warm up for a midsummer adventure up north. >> >> Jesse >> >>>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 8:31 AM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> As many of you know, I have been waiting all winter to get my left knee >>> replaced. My surgery was finally going to happen last Monday, March 21st. >>> But, they gave me a rapid response COVID test at the hospital the morning >>> of the surgery and I tested positive. Despite having no symptoms, they >>> sent me home. From home, I contacted my family doctor and she thought it >>> might have been a false positive. So, she sent me to Gladwin Hospital for >>> a Cobas 6800 SARS-CoV-2 test. This test has to be sent out to a central >>> lab facility for evaluation, which takes longer; but, it?s much more >>> accurate vs. the rapid response test. Sure enough, the test result came >>> back negative! So, I contacted my orthopedic surgeon. COVID created a >>> huge backlog for surgical procedures in the hospitals. Because of this >>> stupid unreliable test, I lost my place in line and the next available >>> surgical date is May 23rd. That?s 2 months away! I was supposed to be >>> pretty much recovered by then, not just having the surgery. Despite the >>> situation, they wouldn?t bump me up in line. They did tell me they would >>> call me if there was a cancellation, but not to get my hopes up. >>> >>> Oh well, at least I don?t have COVID! I?m scheduled to get a cortisone >>> shot in my left knee next week, which should help a little. >>> >>> This situation throws cold water on a family High Adventure Trip this >>> summer. We?ll see how I?m doing by mid July; but, that?s awfully late in >>> the year to be reserving campsites for that summer. >>> >>> Sigh, I?m bummed. I hope everybody else?s week is going better than this. >>> >>> Roger Pihlaja >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium >>> >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows >>> >>> From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Mon Mar 28 12:38:35 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:38:35 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> Message-ID: <014701d842c2$45603050$d02090f0$@ca> Jesse: I did a full osmosis repair of the hull below the waterline. I dug out all of the blisters and filled them with epoxy filler than applied 6 coats of Interlux barrier epoxy coating and then antifouling of course. In the process I raised the waterline about 2" as I had some osmosis in that area. Figuring exactly where the new waterline would go turned out to be a puzzle as you can't just measure up 2" from the old one. Also I discovered that the lines on the port and starboard were not in exactly the same position - not that anyone could tell but that set me off on a quest to solve the "problem". The topsides were painted with an Awlgrip-type paint many years ago and before I bought the boat in 1995. The boat is an incredible endorsement for the longevity of the paint. The exception was the transom which had been damaged when the rudder popped off while the boat was at anchor and badly scraped the gel coat. I also decided that the rudder was not centered precisely and decided to "correct" its location. Another sink hole for time it turned out. As a result of all this I had to paint the transom. It is not the exact same color but you can't tell because the light always hits it from a different angle than the sides. Yellow is a difficult color to get proper coverage with so I must have painted it 10 times before I was adequately satisfied. Because of the extensive deck work I had done I had no choice but to paint the deck and cockpit - everything white. I also glassed over all of the original non-skid so I needed to replace that as well. I used Kiwi Grip - a truly wonderful product. I had never spray painted anything before and starting with a deck and cockpit is not how one wants to build experience. Also I didn't want to splurge on an expensive spray painting setup so I bought a very cheap HVLP system on sale for $35 Canadian dollars. I used System 3 waterborne LPU paint and epoxy base coat. I applied three coats of the base and about 3+ coats of the top coat. I would give the paint a questionable review as to longevity - especially compared to the hull paint but I had no desire to spray a dangerous and difficult to manage epoxy paint. I have attached a picture of the boat when newly painted and with the new windows installed and I was pretty pleased with it given that it should have been a disaster. Since then the paint has cracked in some corners and lifted up in a few places. I have found, however, that repairing these problems is not very difficult. I just use an airbrush for small problems and that works pretty well without having to get out the HVLP sprayer, do a lot of masking and use a large quantity of expensive paint. It is an old boat (76) and on the whole I am happy with it. A lot of work though with removing all hardware and reinstalling it afterwards. The boat deck fairing took me forever until I learned to not use a random orbital sander. The sander makes it smooth but not flat. You really have to use a long-board sander. While very tiring, it is much faster in the end. Take copious notes and photos about where all the hardware was located - you WILL NOT be able to figure it out easily afterwards when the deck is repaired and painted. I did pretty well with most of the hardware but failed to make notes about the exact placement of the chain plates. That was a mistake as being off only a little can become a significant problem. I was changing the hardware and attachment for the chain plates so they necessarily needed to be moved slightly anyway but knowing the exact location of the old ones would have made my life much easier. Graham Stewart gstewart8 at cogeco.ca -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 8:01 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Thanks for the photos Graham. One of your photos sparked another question, did you tackle the paint job for the top sides yourself? It looks like it came out very well. If I recall correctly from a previous post, you addressed some issues on the bottom, then applied an epoxy barrier coat before putting on bottom paint. I think that post was when you explained your "boat gallows" setup to hoist the boat. I wasn't sure if you painted the top sides yourself as well. Jesse On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:36 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Can't say I have many pictures of the fix for the hull-deck joint repair > but have attached what I have. As I mentioned before I cut back the flange > on the upper liner so I could get access to the inside joint which I then > filled with thickend epoxy and covered with several layers of fiberglass > cloth. That made the whole boat more rigid and certainly stopped any leaks > but, like most of what I did, was grand overkill. > > I used simple tools to remove the old sealant after removing the old rub > rail. I don't think it is possible to remove the rub rail without > destroying it. The new rub rail was made by Tessilmayer. The new rail cap > goes over a track that was screwed and riveted through the joint. Why did I > use both screws and rivets? God knows. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of Jesse Shumaker > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:35 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about > the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I ever > had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if > Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. > Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > > > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care > and > > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should > have > > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what > > that would have been. All is holding well. > > > > Good luck. > > Chuy > > 1987 AfterMath > > > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of > > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > > test her out. > > > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > Rodney, > > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't > use a > > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf > Of > > R Brown > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, > > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint > > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when > > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads > > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: tools for removing sealant in hull deck joint June 2016 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 1935155 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 40146 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0001.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 38901 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0002.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Reb rail installed- Tessilmare July 2016.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 125435 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0003.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Starboard window installed June 6. 2015.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96409 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 15:07:45 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <014701d842c2$45603050$d02090f0$@ca> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> <014701d842c2$45603050$d02090f0$@ca> Message-ID: <021d01d842d7$1c032680$54097380$@gmail.com> Awesome job Graham! I would never have the courage to attempt anything like that. -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Graham Stewart Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 12:39 PM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Jesse: I did a full osmosis repair of the hull below the waterline. I dug out all of the blisters and filled them with epoxy filler than applied 6 coats of Interlux barrier epoxy coating and then antifouling of course. In the process I raised the waterline about 2" as I had some osmosis in that area. Figuring exactly where the new waterline would go turned out to be a puzzle as you can't just measure up 2" from the old one. Also I discovered that the lines on the port and starboard were not in exactly the same position - not that anyone could tell but that set me off on a quest to solve the "problem". The topsides were painted with an Awlgrip-type paint many years ago and before I bought the boat in 1995. The boat is an incredible endorsement for the longevity of the paint. The exception was the transom which had been damaged when the rudder popped off while the boat was at anchor and badly scraped the gel coat. I also decided that the rudder was not centered precisely and decided to "correct" its location. Another sink hole for time it turned out. As a result of all this I had to paint the transom. It is not the exact same color but you can't tell because the light always hits it from a different angle than the sides. Yellow is a difficult color to get proper coverage with so I must have painted it 10 times before I was adequately satisfied. Because of the extensive deck work I had done I had no choice but to paint the deck and cockpit - everything white. I also glassed over all of the original non-skid so I needed to replace that as well. I used Kiwi Grip - a truly wonderful product. I had never spray painted anything before and starting with a deck and cockpit is not how one wants to build experience. Also I didn't want to splurge on an expensive spray painting setup so I bought a very cheap HVLP system on sale for $35 Canadian dollars. I used System 3 waterborne LPU paint and epoxy base coat. I applied three coats of the base and about 3+ coats of the top coat. I would give the paint a questionable review as to longevity - especially compared to the hull paint but I had no desire to spray a dangerous and difficult to manage epoxy paint. I have attached a picture of the boat when newly painted and with the new windows installed and I was pretty pleased with it given that it should have been a disaster. Since then the paint has cracked in some corners and lifted up in a few places. I have found, however, that repairing these problems is not very difficult. I just use an airbrush for small problems and that works pretty well without having to get out the HVLP sprayer, do a lot of masking and use a large quantity of expensive paint. It is an old boat (76) and on the whole I am happy with it. A lot of work though with removing all hardware and reinstalling it afterwards. The boat deck fairing took me forever until I learned to not use a random orbital sander. The sander makes it smooth but not flat. You really have to use a long-board sander. While very tiring, it is much faster in the end. Take copious notes and photos about where all the hardware was located - you WILL NOT be able to figure it out easily afterwards when the deck is repaired and painted. I did pretty well with most of the hardware but failed to make notes about the exact placement of the chain plates. That was a mistake as being off only a little can become a significant problem. I was changing the hardware and attachment for the chain plates so they necessarily needed to be moved slightly anyway but knowing the exact location of the old ones would have made my life much easier. Graham Stewart gstewart8 at cogeco.ca -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 8:01 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Thanks for the photos Graham. One of your photos sparked another question, did you tackle the paint job for the top sides yourself? It looks like it came out very well. If I recall correctly from a previous post, you addressed some issues on the bottom, then applied an epoxy barrier coat before putting on bottom paint. I think that post was when you explained your "boat gallows" setup to hoist the boat. I wasn't sure if you painted the top sides yourself as well. Jesse On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:36 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Can't say I have many pictures of the fix for the hull-deck joint repair > but have attached what I have. As I mentioned before I cut back the flange > on the upper liner so I could get access to the inside joint which I then > filled with thickend epoxy and covered with several layers of fiberglass > cloth. That made the whole boat more rigid and certainly stopped any leaks > but, like most of what I did, was grand overkill. > > I used simple tools to remove the old sealant after removing the old rub > rail. I don't think it is possible to remove the rub rail without > destroying it. The new rub rail was made by Tessilmayer. The new rail cap > goes over a track that was screwed and riveted through the joint. Why did I > use both screws and rivets? God knows. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of Jesse Shumaker > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:35 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about > the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I ever > had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if > Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. > Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > > > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care > and > > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should > have > > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what > > that would have been. All is holding well. > > > > Good luck. > > Chuy > > 1987 AfterMath > > > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of > > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > > test her out. > > > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > Rodney, > > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't > use a > > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf > Of > > R Brown > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, > > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint > > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when > > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads > > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: tools for removing sealant in hull deck joint June 2016 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 1935155 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 40146 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0001.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 38901 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0002.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Reb rail installed- Tessilmare July 2016.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 125435 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0003.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Starboard window installed June 6. 2015.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96409 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reuben.mezrich at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 15:55:50 2022 From: reuben.mezrich at gmail.com (Reuben Mezrich) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:55:50 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So...the jib track is on top of the coaming....how do you get to the underside to attach the washers and nylock nuts? Lying on the cockpit floor my arms aren't nearly long enough to reach the coaming from below. Reuben Mezrich Pelican Cove in Sarasota and Back Bay, Boston On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:36 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. > I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the > same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the > longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the > fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel > isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the > screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 > years since then. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. > > If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track > screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m > replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. > Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what > type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which > seems like a difficult task? > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: View recent photos.png > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 327074 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220326%2Ffec166ba%2Fattachment.jpe&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdb90360fc73747051f9f08da0f647a5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839221491545695%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U0y7JlLe4bj1LX4GKwgwVUrTeW4LoTxWJlubeaPa%2Fkg%3D&reserved=0 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Mon Mar 28 15:56:24 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 15:56:24 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <021d01d842d7$1c032680$54097380$@gmail.com> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> <014701d842c2$45603050$d02090f0$@ca> <021d01d842d7$1c032680$54097380$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017801d842dd$e7e74a50$b7b5def0$@ca> I would not have had the courage either if I hadn't been told that the boat's life was over and was ready to go to the dump. So I had nothing to lose but time and I couldn't bring myself to take it to the dump. After all, boats have souls don't they? Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 3:08 PM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Awesome job Graham! I would never have the courage to attempt anything like that. -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf Of Graham Stewart Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 12:39 PM To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Jesse: I did a full osmosis repair of the hull below the waterline. I dug out all of the blisters and filled them with epoxy filler than applied 6 coats of Interlux barrier epoxy coating and then antifouling of course. In the process I raised the waterline about 2" as I had some osmosis in that area. Figuring exactly where the new waterline would go turned out to be a puzzle as you can't just measure up 2" from the old one. Also I discovered that the lines on the port and starboard were not in exactly the same position - not that anyone could tell but that set me off on a quest to solve the "problem". The topsides were painted with an Awlgrip-type paint many years ago and before I bought the boat in 1995. The boat is an incredible endorsement for the longevity of the paint. The exception was the transom which had been damaged when the rudder popped off while the boat was at anchor and badly scraped the gel coat. I also decided that the rudder was not centered precisely and decided to "correct" its location. Another sink hole for time it turned out. As a result of all this I had to paint the transom. It is not the exact same color but you can't tell because the light always hits it from a different angle than the sides. Yellow is a difficult color to get proper coverage with so I must have painted it 10 times before I was adequately satisfied. Because of the extensive deck work I had done I had no choice but to paint the deck and cockpit - everything white. I also glassed over all of the original non-skid so I needed to replace that as well. I used Kiwi Grip - a truly wonderful product. I had never spray painted anything before and starting with a deck and cockpit is not how one wants to build experience. Also I didn't want to splurge on an expensive spray painting setup so I bought a very cheap HVLP system on sale for $35 Canadian dollars. I used System 3 waterborne LPU paint and epoxy base coat. I applied three coats of the base and about 3+ coats of the top coat. I would give the paint a questionable review as to longevity - especially compared to the hull paint but I had no desire to spray a dangerous and difficult to manage epoxy paint. I have attached a picture of the boat when newly painted and with the new windows installed and I was pretty pleased with it given that it should have been a disaster. Since then the paint has cracked in some corners and lifted up in a few places. I have found, however, that repairing these problems is not very difficult. I just use an airbrush for small problems and that works pretty well without having to get out the HVLP sprayer, do a lot of masking and use a large quantity of expensive paint. It is an old boat (76) and on the whole I am happy with it. A lot of work though with removing all hardware and reinstalling it afterwards. The boat deck fairing took me forever until I learned to not use a random orbital sander. The sander makes it smooth but not flat. You really have to use a long-board sander. While very tiring, it is much faster in the end. Take copious notes and photos about where all the hardware was located - you WILL NOT be able to figure it out easily afterwards when the deck is repaired and painted. I did pretty well with most of the hardware but failed to make notes about the exact placement of the chain plates. That was a mistake as being off only a little can become a significant problem. I was changing the hardware and attachment for the chain plates so they necessarily needed to be moved slightly anyway but knowing the exact location of the old ones would have made my life much easier. Graham Stewart gstewart8 at cogeco.ca -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Shumaker Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 8:01 AM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question Thanks for the photos Graham. One of your photos sparked another question, did you tackle the paint job for the top sides yourself? It looks like it came out very well. If I recall correctly from a previous post, you addressed some issues on the bottom, then applied an epoxy barrier coat before putting on bottom paint. I think that post was when you explained your "boat gallows" setup to hoist the boat. I wasn't sure if you painted the top sides yourself as well. Jesse On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:36 PM Graham Stewart wrote: > Can't say I have many pictures of the fix for the hull-deck joint repair > but have attached what I have. As I mentioned before I cut back the flange > on the upper liner so I could get access to the inside joint which I then > filled with thickend epoxy and covered with several layers of fiberglass > cloth. That made the whole boat more rigid and certainly stopped any leaks > but, like most of what I did, was grand overkill. > > I used simple tools to remove the old sealant after removing the old rub > rail. I don't think it is possible to remove the rub rail without > destroying it. The new rub rail was made by Tessilmayer. The new rail cap > goes over a track that was screwed and riveted through the joint. Why did I > use both screws and rivets? God knows. > > Graham Stewart > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of Jesse Shumaker > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:35 PM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about > the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I ever > had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if > Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. > Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > > > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care > and > > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should > have > > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know what > > that would have been. All is holding well. > > > > Good luck. > > Chuy > > 1987 AfterMath > > > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch of > > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > > test her out. > > > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > Rodney, > > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk gun > > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't > use a > > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf > Of > > R Brown > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in Jan, > > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck joint > > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are when > > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few threads > > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in 2001) > > > > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: tools for removing sealant in hull deck joint June 2016 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 1935155 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 40146 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0001.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 38901 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0002.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Reb rail installed- Tessilmare July 2016.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 125435 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0003.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Agile name and lettering October 2016 (3).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 71754 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Agile cockpit painted September 2013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 720145 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HVLP spray gun and turbine.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81717 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Agile Rhodes 22 launched at dock 2020 b.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2678432 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Starboard window installed June 6. 2015.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96409 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Mon Mar 28 16:00:18 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:00:18 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Reuben, Well, you can reach the last several thru bolts from the lazarette compartment, both port & starboard. In those days,, I was skinny enough to squeeze under the seat to reach the rest, although I probably couldn?t do it today. Hire a skinny teenager! Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: Reuben Mezrich Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 12:56 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. So...the jib track is on top of the coaming....how do you get to the underside to attach the washers and nylock nuts? Lying on the cockpit floor my arms aren't nearly long enough to reach the coaming from below. Reuben Mezrich Pelican Cove in Sarasota and Back Bay, Boston On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:36 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. > I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the > same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the > longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the > fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel > isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the > screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 > years since then. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. > > If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track > screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m > replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. > Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what > type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which > seems like a difficult task? > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: View recent photos.png > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 327074 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220326%2Ffec166ba%2Fattachment.jpe&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce178c0dd97da40ceb22f08da10f4fef2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637840941698795545%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qKgSJIp4kypv%2Bhhr5%2BrivO9y2T9ln%2BACBVBh7sMyabw%3D&reserved=0 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > From gstewart8 at cogeco.ca Mon Mar 28 16:05:20 2022 From: gstewart8 at cogeco.ca (Graham Stewart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:05:20 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017901d842df$2759b3c0$760d1b40$@ca> Reuben: I guess you will have to either recruit someone with longer arms or turn the boat over and lie with your chest on the underside of the seats. Graham Stewart Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 Kingston Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Reuben Mezrich Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 3:56 PM To: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. So...the jib track is on top of the coaming....how do you get to the underside to attach the washers and nylock nuts? Lying on the cockpit floor my arms aren't nearly long enough to reach the coaming from below. Reuben Mezrich Pelican Cove in Sarasota and Back Bay, Boston On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:36 PM ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. > I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the > same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the > longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the > fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel > isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the > screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 > years since then. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. > > If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track > screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m > replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. > Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what > type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which > seems like a difficult task? > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: View recent photos.png > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 327074 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhodes22.org%2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2Fattachments%2F20220326%2Ffec166ba%2Fattachment.jpe&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdb90360fc73747051f9f08da0f647a5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839221491545695%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U0y7JlLe4bj1LX4GKwgwVUrTeW4LoTxWJlubeaPa%2Fkg%3D&reserved=0 > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > From jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 12:37:46 2022 From: jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com (Jesse Shumaker) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:37:46 -0500 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question In-Reply-To: <014701d842c2$45603050$d02090f0$@ca> References: <2D37DEA1-12A0-4661-A881-7FA1B2739843@me.com> <3B480D99-0C20-40AE-8695-FAFD94BB14FC@gmail.com> <1613388933.828244.1648400731229@myemail.cox.net> <012e01d84244$2e49fdc0$8addf940$@ca> <014701d842c2$45603050$d02090f0$@ca> Message-ID: Graham, Wow, what a project! I think I'm content to admire what you did rather than taking on something that bold myself :) Jesse On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 11:38 AM Graham Stewart wrote: > Jesse: > I did a full osmosis repair of the hull below the waterline. I dug out all > of the blisters and filled them with epoxy filler than applied 6 coats of > Interlux barrier epoxy coating and then antifouling of course. In the > process I raised the waterline about 2" as I had some osmosis in that area. > Figuring exactly where the new waterline would go turned out to be a puzzle > as you can't just measure up 2" from the old one. Also I discovered that > the lines on the port and starboard were not in exactly the same position - > not that anyone could tell but that set me off on a quest to solve the > "problem". > > The topsides were painted with an Awlgrip-type paint many years ago and > before I bought the boat in 1995. The boat is an incredible endorsement for > the longevity of the paint. The exception was the transom which had been > damaged when the rudder popped off while the boat was at anchor and badly > scraped the gel coat. I also decided that the rudder was not centered > precisely and decided to "correct" its location. Another sink hole for time > it turned out. As a result of all this I had to paint the transom. It is > not the exact same color but you can't tell because the light always hits > it from a different angle than the sides. Yellow is a difficult color to > get proper coverage with so I must have painted it 10 times before I was > adequately satisfied. > > Because of the extensive deck work I had done I had no choice but to paint > the deck and cockpit - everything white. I also glassed over all of the > original non-skid so I needed to replace that as well. I used Kiwi Grip - a > truly wonderful product. > > I had never spray painted anything before and starting with a deck and > cockpit is not how one wants to build experience. Also I didn't want to > splurge on an expensive spray painting setup so I bought a very cheap HVLP > system on sale for $35 Canadian dollars. I used System 3 waterborne LPU > paint and epoxy base coat. I applied three coats of the base and about 3+ > coats of the top coat. I would give the paint a questionable review as to > longevity - especially compared to the hull paint but I had no desire to > spray a dangerous and difficult to manage epoxy paint. I have attached a > picture of the boat when newly painted and with the new windows installed > and I was pretty pleased with it given that it should have been a disaster. > Since then the paint has cracked in some corners and lifted up in a few > places. I have found, however, that repairing these problems is not very > difficult. I just use an airbrush for small problems and that works pretty > well without having to get out the HVLP sprayer, do a lot of masking and > use a large quantity of expensive paint. > > It is an old boat (76) and on the whole I am happy with it. A lot of work > though with removing all hardware and reinstalling it afterwards. The boat > deck fairing took me forever until I learned to not use a random orbital > sander. The sander makes it smooth but not flat. You really have to use a > long-board sander. While very tiring, it is much faster in the end. > > Take copious notes and photos about where all the hardware was located - > you WILL NOT be able to figure it out easily afterwards when the deck is > repaired and painted. I did pretty well with most of the hardware but > failed to make notes about the exact placement of the chain plates. That > was a mistake as being off only a little can become a significant problem. > I was changing the hardware and attachment for the chain plates so they > necessarily needed to be moved slightly anyway but knowing the exact > location of the old ones would have made my life much easier. > > > Graham Stewart > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf > Of Jesse Shumaker > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2022 8:01 AM > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > Thanks for the photos Graham. One of your photos sparked another question, > did you tackle the paint job for the top sides yourself? It looks like it > came out very well. If I recall correctly from a previous post, you > addressed some issues on the bottom, then applied an epoxy barrier coat > before putting on bottom paint. I think that post was when you explained > your "boat gallows" setup to hoist the boat. I wasn't sure if you painted > the top sides yourself as well. > > Jesse > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 8:36 PM Graham Stewart > wrote: > > > Can't say I have many pictures of the fix for the hull-deck joint repair > > but have attached what I have. As I mentioned before I cut back the > flange > > on the upper liner so I could get access to the inside joint which I then > > filled with thickend epoxy and covered with several layers of fiberglass > > cloth. That made the whole boat more rigid and certainly stopped any > leaks > > but, like most of what I did, was grand overkill. > > > > I used simple tools to remove the old sealant after removing the old rub > > rail. I don't think it is possible to remove the rub rail without > > destroying it. The new rub rail was made by Tessilmayer. The new rail cap > > goes over a track that was screwed and riveted through the joint. Why > did I > > use both screws and rivets? God knows. > > > > Graham Stewart > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976 > > Kingston Ontario > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On > Behalf > > Of Jesse Shumaker > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:35 PM > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > I've been following this thread with interest since I had wondered about > > the hull to deck joint and what would be involved in resealing it if I > ever > > had to do that. Since a few people have been down this road, I wonder if > > Chuy, Graham, or others have any photos of this project in progress. > > Rodney, it will be good to hear how your project turns out. > > > > Jesse Shumaker > > S/V Zephyr > > > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM chuy carreon wrote: > > > > > Great idea on the 3m 4200. I removed the aluminum guard rail with care > > and > > > drilled out the rivets. Most were decomposed. I used aluminum bolts and > > > locking nuts with a washer. Used plenty of 4200. I think now I should > > have > > > used stainless steel with a new guard rail. But even now do not know > what > > > that would have been. All is holding well. > > > > > > Good luck. > > > Chuy > > > 1987 AfterMath > > > > > > > On March 25, 2022 at 11:34 AM RODNEY BROWN > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to everyone who replied. Ive ordered some 3m 4200 and will > > > attempt the easier route up the mountain before I start taking a bunch > of > > > stuff apart. I?ll report back in when its complete and Ive had time to > > > test her out. > > > > > > > > Have a great weekend all, > > > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Lowe, Rob wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rodney, > > > > > I had a similar problem with my first Rhodes. I just got a chalk > gun > > > and chalked around the joint as best I could. Problem solved. Don't > > use a > > > silicon chalk as you'll never get of off if you need to. > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Rhodes22-list On Behalf > > Of > > > R Brown > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 2:30 PM > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Deck Joint repair question > > > > > > > > > > Hope everyone is having a great week. I purchased my Rhodes in > Jan, > > > and the owner mentioned that he was planning on resealing the deck > joint > > > this year (she leaks a little water on the starboard side galley are > when > > > the gunwales are buried). The search function lead to me to a few > threads > > > on this topics, but left me with questions. (My boat was built in > 2001) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. What to parts should I expect to replace? I?ve read mention of > > > drilling out rivets when resealing the joint. > > > > > > > > > > Some one mentioned replacing rivets with bolts. Are there thoughts > > > about the pros and cons of bolt vs. rivets? > > > > > Does anyone have a suggestion on what size rivets I?ll need? Also, > > > where is a good source to purchase them? > > > > > Should I plan on replacing the rub rail while doing this? > > > > > > > > > > B. How much time should I budget for this repair? > > > > > > > > > > C. Lastly, would anyone be willing to talk live to share the > > > experience on this repair. If so my cell is 405-496-5533 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for helping this rookie out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > Rodney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: tools for removing sealant in hull deck joint June 2016 (3).jpg > > Type: image/jpeg > > Size: 1935155 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > > > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment.jpg > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009 (3).jpg > > Type: image/jpeg > > Size: 40146 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > > > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0001.jpg > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: Hull - Deck join rebuild 2009.jpg > > Type: image/jpeg > > Size: 38901 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > > > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0002.jpg > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: Reb rail installed- Tessilmare July 2016.jpg > > Type: image/jpeg > > Size: 125435 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: < > > > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220327/12745714/attachment-0003.jpg > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Agile name and lettering October 2016 (3).jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 71754 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220328/8c367b46/attachment.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Agile cockpit painted September 2013.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 720145 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220328/8c367b46/attachment-0001.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: HVLP spray gun and turbine.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 81717 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220328/8c367b46/attachment-0002.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Agile Rhodes 22 launched at dock 2020 b.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 2678432 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220328/8c367b46/attachment-0003.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Starboard window installed June 6. 2015.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 96409 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://rhodes22.org/pipermail/rhodes22-list/attachments/20220328/8c367b46/attachment-0004.jpg > > > From tvpolise at aol.com Tue Mar 29 13:22:30 2022 From: tvpolise at aol.com (THOMAS POLISE) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:22:30 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, how long are your arms? > On Mar 27, 2022, at 7:35 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > > ? > Hi Thomas, > > I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 years since then. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. > > If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which seems like a difficult task? > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: View recent photos.png > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 327074 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > > From roger_pihlaja at msn.com Tue Mar 29 14:41:15 2022 From: roger_pihlaja at msn.com (ROGER PIHLAJA) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:41:15 +0000 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thomas, 1987 was a long time ago. But, I don?t remember it as a particularly difficult thing. I think I just crawled under the cockpit seats on my back. You will want to wear safety glasses because stuff can fall in your face. I remember using a socket wrench with a 12? extension and an angle grinder, both of which gave me enough reach to the bottom of the gunnel. Naturally, I needed a helper up on top to turn the screw driver. I think I used a blob of silicone RTV on the fender washer & nut to hold them together in the socket until the threads took hold. As I recall, the whole project only took about an hour, which is usually about all my wife will stick around as a helper. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: THOMAS POLISE Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2022 10:22 AM To: ROGER PIHLAJA Cc: The Rhodes 22 Email List Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. Thanks, how long are your arms? On Mar 27, 2022, at 7:35 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: ? Hi Thomas, I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 years since then. Roger Pihlaja S/V Dynamic Equilibrium Sent from Mail for Windows From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which seems like a difficult task? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: View recent photos.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 327074 bytes Desc: not available URL: > -------------- next part -------------- From tvpolise at aol.com Wed Mar 30 07:15:00 2022 From: tvpolise at aol.com (THOMAS POLISE) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 07:15:00 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E1290C7-A02F-447B-90F1-AF24E4118D87@aol.com> Thanks, can?t wait to try it. I?ll let you know how it works out > On Mar 29, 2022, at 2:41 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > > ? > Thomas, > > 1987 was a long time ago. But, I don?t remember it as a particularly difficult thing. I think I just crawled under the cockpit seats on my back. You will want to wear safety glasses because stuff can fall in your face. I remember using a socket wrench with a 12? extension and an angle grinder, both of which gave me enough reach to the bottom of the gunnel. Naturally, I needed a helper up on top to turn the screw driver. I think I used a blob of silicone RTV on the fender washer & nut to hold them together in the socket until the threads took hold. As I recall, the whole project only took about an hour, which is usually about all my wife will stick around as a helper. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: THOMAS POLISE > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2022 10:22 AM > To: ROGER PIHLAJA > Cc: The Rhodes 22 Email List > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. > > Thanks, how long are your arms? > > > On Mar 27, 2022, at 7:35 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA wrote: > > ? > Hi Thomas, > > I noticed the same thing back when I first got my Rhodes 22 back in 1987. I just backed the screws out one by one, installed longer screws into the same holes, and then installed SS fender washers and nylock nuts onto the longer threads. In effect, my genoa track is now thru bolted and the fender washers serve as backing plates. If the backside under the gunnel isn?t smooth; then, grind off the blobs of FRP under the gunnels while the screw is out. I?ve never had any issues with the genoa tracks in the 25 years since then. > > Roger Pihlaja > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 1:09 PM > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jib Sheet track replacement. > > If this is going out twice please excuse me. This is a photo of jib track screws protruding through underside of deck with no nuts or blocks. I?m replacing the jib track and noticed that screws are just epoxied into deck. Are all Rhodes made like this and has anyone ever replaced? If so what type of epoxy should I use? Has anyone put blocking underneath, which seems like a difficult task? > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: View recent photos.png > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 327074 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > > > From jamcando126 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:09:49 2022 From: jamcando126 at gmail.com (John McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:09:49 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stan Message-ID: Has anyone seen or talked to or gotten a email from Stan in the last Month:::??? tks John From sea20 at verizon.net Thu Mar 31 16:35:51 2022 From: sea20 at verizon.net (Scott Andrews) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:35:51 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not since January Scott Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 31, 2022, at 4:10 PM, John McLaughlin wrote: > > ?Has anyone seen or talked to or gotten a email from Stan in the last > Month:::??? > tks > John From jamcando126 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 31 16:56:44 2022 From: jamcando126 at yahoo.com (John McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:56:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1641468915.279116.1648760204586@mail.yahoo.com> Tks I just sent his daughter a email.TksJohn Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, March 31, 2022, 4:35 PM, Scott Andrews via Rhodes22-list wrote: Not since January Scott Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 31, 2022, at 4:10 PM, John McLaughlin wrote: > > ?Has anyone seen or talked to or gotten a email from Stan in the last > Month:::??? > tks > John From mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 23:50:35 2022 From: mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com (Michael McKay) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 23:50:35 -0400 Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stan In-Reply-To: <1641468915.279116.1648760204586@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1641468915.279116.1648760204586@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I got an email from him on March 19th. Michael McKay (630) 209-2054 (m) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 31, 2022, at 4:56 PM, John McLaughlin via Rhodes22-list wrote: > > ?Tks I just sent his daughter a email.TksJohn > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, March 31, 2022, 4:35 PM, Scott Andrews via Rhodes22-list wrote: > > Not since January > Scott > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 31, 2022, at 4:10 PM, John McLaughlin wrote: >> >> ?Has anyone seen or talked to or gotten a email from Stan in the last >> Month:::??? >> tks >> John > > > >