[Rhodes22-list] slides vs digital camera

Wed Aug 6 10:55:12 EDT 2003

David,

I agree there is no intrinsic technical barrier to making a truly rugged,
water resistant digital camera.  However, it is not something the average
camera owner can do with an existing digital camera.  The available housings
for converting standard cameras for underwater use render the camera truly
clunky & unwieldy for most outdoor uses.  All I'm saying is that the major
digital camera manufacturers haven't yet offered an easy-to-carry,
point-&-shoot product that is able to stand up to real world outdoor use.

Certainly, there is image degradation & it requires an extra processing step
to shoot 35 mm film & then digitally scan the image.  But, this is still
better than no pictures at all because the digital camera expired during the
trip or had to be so well protected that the photographer couldn't get to it
in real time to take the shot.  Thus, at least for me, a digital camera is
not really a viable option.

By the way, a 35 mm film negative contains about 20 mega pixels.  Thus, the
35 mm film image is not the image resolution limiting factor.  The scanner &
image processing software are always the resolution & image quality limiting
factors.  They still yield a scanned, digitized image that is adequate for
most purposes short of high magnification enlargements or glossy magazine
layouts.

The highest resolution digital camera I've seen so far is a 14 mega pixel
professional model from Kodak for about $5000.  That's pretty pricey for
most people & this camera is certainly not rugged or water resistant.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] slides vs digital camera

> Roger,
>
> No argument.  Although the Canon 1Ds (at $8,000) is said to be as well
> sealed as the the 1N) which is the pro stanfard for SLR's.  Water damage
is
> explicitly not covered in my warranty for the D100.  There is nothing
> inherently difficult about weatherproofing a digital, it just needs to be
> done as the products mature.
>
> Another way to look at the digital/film issue goes back to a systems
> analysis professor I had in college.  He said, "remember, everything in
life
> is a low pass filter".  Every step an image goes through degrades
> resolution.  Digital sharpening (using USM) can recreate the appearance of
> resolution but its only creating local contrast increase.  Digital in
> general requires fewer low pass steps to get an end image.
>
> Dave Walker
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] slides vs digital camera
>
>
> > Wally, David,
> >
> > 35 mm film cameras still have an edge over digitals when it comes to
water
> > resistance & ruggedness.  On my outdoor adventures, I use a Pentax
IQZoom
> > 105-WR Date.  This thing is Class V weather resistant, meaning it's OK
to
> > shoot in heavy rain & spray.  Heck, when it gets dirty, the manual
> > recommends washing it under running water from the tap in the sink!
I've
> > cleaned it under the water from a hand cranked well pump & by squirting
it
> > with water from a water bottle.  Try that with your digital camera &
watch
> > it fry!  The 38 mm - 105 mm autofocus/power zoom optics are coated with
> > special abrasion/scratch resistant coatings.  All the moving parts are
> > sealed with gaskets or O-Rings & the case is rubber armored to be grippy
&
> > take a beating.  I've been using mine just about 3 years now & it hasn't
> > glitched once.  This usage has included my "Around The Tip Of The Mitt"
> Lake
> > Huron/Lake Michigan catamaran delivery cruise last fall, a cruise
vacation
> > to the Virgin Islands, a couple of canoe trips, several backpacking
trips
> > including three Polar Bear Winter Camping Trips & eight days in the
rugged
> > Isle Royale National Park, a couple of mountain bike trips complete with
> the
> > usual wipe-outs with the camera on board in a handlebar pack, two
> horseback
> > riding trips, & numerous day sails on our R-22.  My son, Daniel, used
the
> > Pentax on a white water rafting trip on the Class IV - V rapids on the
New
> > River in W. Virginia in the spring of 2003.  If you are going to get
good
> > action or wildlife shots; then, the camera must be always readily
> accessible
> > & thus vulnerable to receiving punishment.  The Pentax has been very wet
&
> > dirty more than once.  Before I bought the Pentax, I looked at digitals
&
> > couldn't find anything on the market at that time that was even close to
> > being rugged & water resistant enough.  Just this year, Olympus has
> started
> > offering digital cameras that are starting to close this outdoor
> performance
> > gap, but they're still not on par with 35 mm film cameras.  I hate
having
> to
> > baby my equipment, including cameras.  It may be more work to digitize
> > pictures after the fact with a scanner; but, that's much preferable to
no
> > pictures at all because your digital camera wasn't up to the
environmental
> > punishment or it was packed safely away & you couldn't get to it in real
> > time to take the shot.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 7:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] slides vs digital camera
> >
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > I used to sell high end Macs, image setters, slide and drum scanners
to
> > the
> > > digital pre-press industry. A few years ago all of my customers still
> > liked
> > > slides. It sounds like digital has bridged the quality gap. You still
> see
> > a
> > > bunch of the pros sticking to the old gear though. Is this because
they
> > > don't want to spend the money on new equipment?
> > >
> > > I have always been a autofocus (point and shoot) guy and don't know
much
> > > about cameras.  I love my Fuj Digital camera though!  You can't beat
the
> > > instant gratification and the low cost to view a pic.
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
> > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm - slides vs digital
> camera
> > > >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:39:22 -0400
> > > >
> > > >Wally,
> > > >
> > > >I spent a number of years convincing myself that scaning slides was
> > better
> > > >than direct digital.  That changed about a year ago when I worked
along
> > > >side
> > > >another pro documenting our son's championship soccer season.  I shot
> > film
> > > >and scanned, he shot a Nikon D1.  His stuff blew mine out of the
water
> > (and
> > > >the D1 is a generation behind, 2.2 MP camera).
> > > >
> > > >I finally bought a Nikon D100 about 6 months ago.  I shave shot very
> > little
> > > >film since.  The D100 is a 6 MP camera and produces phenomenal
images.
> > > >
> > > >The way I look at it is that the 35mm slide itself may have
inherently
> > > >higher resolution, but getting that resolution into some useful form
(a
> > > >print or a digital file) requires additional resolution degrading
> steps.
> > A
> > > >camera direct digital file is already digital and is ready for
> whatever.
> > > >
> > > >Dave Walker
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 3:40 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm - slides vs digital
> camera
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Scan from slide still provides the best reslults doesn't it?
Digital
> > > >cameras
> > > > > have come a long way but unless you have an extremely high end
> digital
> > > > > camera there is still a big difference in quality.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wally
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm
> > > > > >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:26:05 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > >not shocked that he is cheap, got that impresstion too, he has a
> > > >website
> > > > > >that looks like limited runs of sailing/boating books,
> > > > > >tight margins i am sure. It is mosty to get a rhodes22 on the
> cover.
> > My
> > > >bet
> > > > > >that who ever is doing the jacket only know how to work
> > > > > >with slides and has been doing slides for the last 50 years, seim
> > > >retired
> > > > > >and do not  know digital.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >MJM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
> > > > > >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:13 PM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jim Connolly and I are trying to get together on the water
this
> > > >weekend
> > > > > >for
> > > > > > > some pictures, but the weather forecasts don't look promising.
> > Had
> > > >a
> > > > > >call
> > > > > > > with Stan Grayson about it.  He is publishing a book, but
trying
> > to
> > > >get
> > > > > > > everything in it donated (ie no $ for licensing the photo).
His
> > > > > >business is
> > > > > > > not listed in the Marblehead local directory but his home
number
> > is.
> > > > > >Also
> > > > > > > his requirement of a slide (vs direct digital) goes against
all
> I
> > > >know
> > > > > >in
> > > > > > > the publishing industry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer" <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:35 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTW were you able to do anything with the picture?, saw stan
> > take
> > > >a
> > > > > >pass.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "David Walker" <david.walker5 at comcast.net>
> > > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:30 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Careful where you drill the hole, too far forward and it
> will
> > > >drain
> > > > > >into
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > cabin.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Rob Lowe" <rlowe at vt.edu>
> > > > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:58 AM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I've thought of the same thing, so I'm curious to hear
> some
> > > > > >responses.
> > > > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > > > > > tells me the water is supposed to drain down the
> centerboard
> > > >line
> > > > > > > hole,
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > mine has a thicker line than his and tends to get
clogged
> > with
> > > > > >junk
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > drain well.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rob Lowe
> > > > > > > > > > S/V Getaway
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Robert Dilk" <Robert.Dilk at TRW.COM>
> > > > > > > > > > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:44 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] First Rain Storm
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Had the Rhodes 22 out in a real down pour Sunday.
> > > > > > > > > > With the girls in the cabin and close hauled the rain
> water
> > > >built
> > > > > >up
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > forward area of the seat drain track and seat. The
forward
> > > >Corners
> > > > > > > have no
> > > > > > > > > > drains. The result was wet bottoms.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > My thought was to drill some drain holes in the forward
> > > >Corners
> > > >of
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > > > drain tracks and let the water drain to the cockpit
floor.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Any comments, suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > S/V knot Necessary
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________
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