[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War

Rik Sandberg sanderico@earthlink.net
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:21:46 -0600


Bill,

Well, don't you think that laying down a solid plan might be a little 
tough, being that if there was an Iraqi that would step up to accept the 
leadership, and was stupid enough to admit it publically, he probably 
wouldn't be alive next week. Consider also that the "central intelligence" 
would probably take the whole week to kill the poor bastard. We've been 
talking with the guy for many years now and no good seems to have come from 
it.

Also, no matter what reasons our leaders have given, they've mentioned all 
of them at one time or another. Taken together there is plenty of reason.

If a couple of these guys start to disappear, it may start to remind some 
of the would be despots that being president of your own little country 
doesn't necessarilly make you bulletproof. Someone in the world is still 
out there to hold you responsible for your actions.

Rik

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:27:03 -0500, Bill Berner <bberner@optonline.net> 
wrote:

> Rik -
>
> I think you've hit the crux of our disagreement.
>
> Frankly, I would say that an organized well considered foreign policy 
> would
> be to not change anything until you have a plan for what will replace it.
>
> I would also maintain that going to war is not the only alternative to 
> doing
> "nothing".
>
> You make a compelling case when you try to make the atrocities more
> personal.  I'm not going to step into the same trap that a certain
> democratic presidential candidate once fell into face first.
>
> But I do think it raises an interesting point about how the Bush admin. 
> Has
> presented the case for war, and I think it's been a big issue for a lot 
> of
> people, even moderates in this country (which, hough many will probably
> disagree, is how I would characterize myself), and certainly LOTS of 
> people
> in the rest of the world.  The administration has made its case, 
> primarily,
> not on the basis of humanitarianism, but the threat of potential future
> aggression and terrorism.  Understand, that is a criticism of the admin.,
> and its justifications, not of your concerns.  Similarly, the governments
> justification for going to Afghanistan (which I supported) wan not based 
> on
> wanting to help Afghani women, but based on National Security.  I would 
> also
> suggest to you that our actions in Serbia, Bosnia, etc. were also based 
> not
> on humanitarian concerns, but the destabilizing of Eastern Europe.  In
> Rwanda, where there was no strategic interest for the US, we sat on our
> hands.  We have not taken action against North Korea, whose population is
> starving.  And we activiely work with China, whose regime is still very
> tough on dissidents.
>
> I would argue that US foreign policy is not guided by humanitarian 
> concerns,
> but strategic interests.  When the two happen to coincide, that's great,
> when it doesn't, too bad.  Maybe that is a cynical thought, but history I
> think bears it out.
>
> David Mcullough in his biography of John Adams guotes Adams when he with
> Franklin was our attaché to France.  I'll paraphrase - Diplomatic 
> relations
> are only based on mutual self interest, not doing whats right.
>
> I don't think things have changed much.
>
> Sorry for being long winded.
>
> BB
>
>
> Bill Berner
> 191 South Broadway
> Hastings on Hudson, NY  10706
> v 914 478 2896
> f 914 478 3856
> e BBerner@optonline.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rik Sandberg
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:28 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War
>
> Bill,
>
> you wrote
> "Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily mean that what follows 
> will
> be better"
>
> That is certainly a valid point. BUT, does this then make it right to 
> just do nothing? There is one sure bet here. Whoever replaces Saddam 
> Hussein would have to work very hard to be a worse example of humanity. 
> There is virtually no chance for a positive change as long as this man is 
> in power.
>
> I think that these things are happening a long ways from home and are 
> pretty easy to ignore. Would you feel the same if they sent you a video 
> tape of the gang rape of your wife to punish you for speaking out against 
> our government policies?? If you were dragged off in the night to be 
> electrically shocked and beaten with metal rods, maybe sodomized with a 
> stick, would you not pray that there was someone in the world with enough 
> guts to offer you some help??? Or, would you still side with the folks 
> that want to continue trading oil for weapons?
>
> There is a cliche that goes; the definition of insanity is doing the same 
> thing over and over again while expecting a different result. It's time 
> to change the pattern here.
>
> Rik
>
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:24:56 -0500, Bill Berner <bberner@optonline.net> 
> wrote:
>
>> To use a metaphor - Cutting off someones head is not necessarily an
>> effective cure for brain cancer.
>>
>> Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily mean that what follows 
>> will
>> be better, and there is no indication that there is a plan for who to 
>> build
>> a new Iraq that will hold together the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunni's in a 
>> way
>> that doesn't just as brutally repress one or more of those groups.  I 
>> repeat
>> myself, but the US doesn't have a great record when it comes to 
>> sustained
>> follow through at nation building, and in Iraq we will be trying to do 
>> it in
>> a place where we are, to put it kindly, not trusted by the populace,
>> especially because of our abandoning the Kurds in the north and Shiites 
>> (I
>> think) in the South when they regbelled against Hussein after the last 
>> war.
>>
>>
>> Bill Berner
>> 191 South Broadway
>> Hastings on Hudson, NY  10706
>> v 914 478 2896
>> f 914 478 3856
>> e BBerner@optonline.net
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Rik Sandberg
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:35 AM
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War
>>
>> Sorry Bill,
>>
>> But I'm not quite that wishy washy. Some things are just plain wrong and
>> need to get "cured". It seems that the US is the only country in the 
>> world that
>> is willing to spearhead the effort. Most of the rest are willing to 
>> overlook Saddam's atrosities for the sake of the profits they are making 
>> by trading him weapons and such for his oil. Again, where are our 
>> priorities here??? Saddam Hussein is about as good an example of wrong 
>> as I have seen in a long
>>
>> time, I truly can't believe that he has lived this long.
>>
>> Rik
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday 26 March 2003 08:58 am, you wrote:
>>> "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the
>>> leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a 
>>> simple
>>> matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
>>> dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.  Voice or 
>>> no
>>> voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. 
>>> This is easy.  All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
>> and
>>> denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country 
>>> to
>>> danger.  It works the same in every country."
>>>
>>> Hermann Goering
>>> Hitler's Reich-Marshall
>>> At the Nuremberg Trials
>>> _________________________________________________
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>> _________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
>



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