[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on Going to War

Steve rhodes2282@yahoo.com
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:50:18 -0800 (PST)


Excellent, Rik.  
There is no better way to curve terrorism than to make
a few examples of what could happen if you don't run
your country right.
Steve

--- Rik Sandberg <sanderico@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Bill,
> 
> Well, don't you think that laying down a solid plan
> might be a little 
> tough, being that if there was an Iraqi that would
> step up to accept the 
> leadership, and was stupid enough to admit it
> publically, he probably 
> wouldn't be alive next week. Consider also that the
> "central intelligence" 
> would probably take the whole week to kill the poor
> bastard. We've been 
> talking with the guy for many years now and no good
> seems to have come from 
> it.
> 
> Also, no matter what reasons our leaders have given,
> they've mentioned all 
> of them at one time or another. Taken together there
> is plenty of reason.
> 
> If a couple of these guys start to disappear, it may
> start to remind some 
> of the would be despots that being president of your
> own little country 
> doesn't necessarilly make you bulletproof. Someone
> in the world is still 
> out there to hold you responsible for your actions.
> 
> Rik
> 
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:27:03 -0500, Bill Berner
> <bberner@optonline.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Rik -
> >
> > I think you've hit the crux of our disagreement.
> >
> > Frankly, I would say that an organized well
> considered foreign policy 
> > would
> > be to not change anything until you have a plan
> for what will replace it.
> >
> > I would also maintain that going to war is not the
> only alternative to 
> > doing
> > "nothing".
> >
> > You make a compelling case when you try to make
> the atrocities more
> > personal.  I'm not going to step into the same
> trap that a certain
> > democratic presidential candidate once fell into
> face first.
> >
> > But I do think it raises an interesting point
> about how the Bush admin. 
> > Has
> > presented the case for war, and I think it's been
> a big issue for a lot 
> > of
> > people, even moderates in this country (which,
> hough many will probably
> > disagree, is how I would characterize myself), and
> certainly LOTS of 
> > people
> > in the rest of the world.  The administration has
> made its case, 
> > primarily,
> > not on the basis of humanitarianism, but the
> threat of potential future
> > aggression and terrorism.  Understand, that is a
> criticism of the admin.,
> > and its justifications, not of your concerns. 
> Similarly, the governments
> > justification for going to Afghanistan (which I
> supported) wan not based 
> > on
> > wanting to help Afghani women, but based on
> National Security.  I would 
> > also
> > suggest to you that our actions in Serbia, Bosnia,
> etc. were also based 
> > not
> > on humanitarian concerns, but the destabilizing of
> Eastern Europe.  In
> > Rwanda, where there was no strategic interest for
> the US, we sat on our
> > hands.  We have not taken action against North
> Korea, whose population is
> > starving.  And we activiely work with China, whose
> regime is still very
> > tough on dissidents.
> >
> > I would argue that US foreign policy is not guided
> by humanitarian 
> > concerns,
> > but strategic interests.  When the two happen to
> coincide, that's great,
> > when it doesn't, too bad.  Maybe that is a cynical
> thought, but history I
> > think bears it out.
> >
> > David Mcullough in his biography of John Adams
> guotes Adams when he with
> > Franklin was our attaché to France.  I'll
> paraphrase - Diplomatic 
> > relations
> > are only based on mutual self interest, not doing
> whats right.
> >
> > I don't think things have changed much.
> >
> > Sorry for being long winded.
> >
> > BB
> >
> >
> > Bill Berner
> > 191 South Broadway
> > Hastings on Hudson, NY  10706
> > v 914 478 2896
> > f 914 478 3856
> > e BBerner@optonline.net
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of Rik Sandberg
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:28 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on
> Going to War
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > you wrote
> > "Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily
> mean that what follows 
> > will
> > be better"
> >
> > That is certainly a valid point. BUT, does this
> then make it right to 
> > just do nothing? There is one sure bet here.
> Whoever replaces Saddam 
> > Hussein would have to work very hard to be a worse
> example of humanity. 
> > There is virtually no chance for a positive change
> as long as this man is 
> > in power.
> >
> > I think that these things are happening a long
> ways from home and are 
> > pretty easy to ignore. Would you feel the same if
> they sent you a video 
> > tape of the gang rape of your wife to punish you
> for speaking out against 
> > our government policies?? If you were dragged off
> in the night to be 
> > electrically shocked and beaten with metal rods,
> maybe sodomized with a 
> > stick, would you not pray that there was someone
> in the world with enough 
> > guts to offer you some help??? Or, would you still
> side with the folks 
> > that want to continue trading oil for weapons?
> >
> > There is a cliche that goes; the definition of
> insanity is doing the same 
> > thing over and over again while expecting a
> different result. It's time 
> > to change the pattern here.
> >
> > Rik
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:24:56 -0500, Bill Berner
> <bberner@optonline.net> 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> To use a metaphor - Cutting off someones head is
> not necessarily an
> >> effective cure for brain cancer.
> >>
> >> Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily
> mean that what follows 
> >> will
> >> be better, and there is no indication that there
> is a plan for who to 
> >> build
> >> a new Iraq that will hold together the Kurds,
> Shiites, and Sunni's in a 
> >> way
> >> that doesn't just as brutally repress one or more
> of those groups.  I 
> >> repeat
> >> myself, but the US doesn't have a great record
> when it comes to 
> >> sustained
> >> follow through at nation building, and in Iraq we
> will be trying to do 
> >> it in
> >> a place where we are, to put it kindly, not
> trusted by the populace,
> >> especially because of our abandoning the Kurds in
> the north and Shiites 
> >> (I
> >> think) in the South when they regbelled against
> Hussein after the last 
> >> war.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill Berner
> >> 191 South Broadway
> >> Hastings on Hudson, NY  10706
> >> v 914 478 2896
> >> f 914 478 3856
> >> e BBerner@optonline.net
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org
> >> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@rhodes22.org] On
> Behalf Of Rik Sandberg
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:35 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goering on
> Going to War
> >>
> >> Sorry Bill,
> >>
> >> But I'm not quite that wishy washy. Some things
> are just plain wrong and
> >> need to get "cured". It seems that the US is the
> only country in the 
> >> world that
> >> is willing to spearhead the effort. Most of the
> rest are willing to 
> >> overlook Saddam's atrosities for the sake of the
> profits they are making 
> >> by trading him weapons and such for his oil.
> Again, where are our 
> >> priorities here??? Saddam Hussein is about as
> good an example of wrong 
> >> as I have seen in a long
> >>
> >> time, I truly can't believe that he has lived
> this long.
> >>
> >> Rik
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday 26 March 2003 08:58 am, you wrote:
> >>> "Naturally, the common people don't want war,
> but after all, it is the
> >>> leaders of a country who determine the policy,
> and it is always a 
> >>> simple
> >>> matter to drag people along whether it is a
> democracy, or a fascist
> >>> dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
> dictatorship.  Voice or 
> >>> no
> >>> voice, the people can always be brought to the
> bidding of the leaders. 
> >>> This is easy.  All you have to do is tell them
> they are being attacked,
> >> and
> >>> denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism
> and exposing the country 
> >>> to
> >>> danger.  It works the same in every country."
> >>>
> >>> Hermann Goering
> >>> Hitler's Reich-Marshall
> >>> At the Nuremberg Trials
> >>>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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