[Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?
Roger Pihlaja
cen09402 at centurytel.net
Fri Dec 10 10:50:51 EST 2004
Lou,
You know what they say about the bumblebee? The wonder of the creature is
not that it flies so well; but, that it can fly at all!
You have a serious structural problem with your Rhodes 22 & limited
resources to repair it. Many people would throw up their hands & walk away
when confronted with your situation. But, not you!
I never said your centerboard well repair would be easy or simple. However,
I think you have a much better chance of ending up with a reasonably
straight & fair centerboard well if you start with a nice flat piece of
rigid G-10 sheet as opposed to limp fiberglass mat or cloth & attempt to
laminate it in situ. I know you will end up with a stronger, more water
resistant, more abrasion resistant patch. As far as what it looks like;
well, I don't think there's going to be any substitute for your own Mark I
eyeballs. If it looks reasonably straight & fair; then, it's probably good
enough. Remember, it's far more important that the patch be stiff & strong
& waterproof, not just today, but also 5 years from now. Remember, nobody
is going to see this patch except you.
Good luck, man!
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lou Rosenberg" <steadilsr at verizon.net>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?
> Roger,
> Ok say I use the Garolite and get it to fit the space where the
> removed FRP was, do you then recommend just a barrier coat and then the
> paint? I am going to have to be very careful with the tolerances I
> create with the new materials and since I have such a mis shaped trunk
> I really dont have anything to measure for a good standard of what my
> trunk space should be.
> I see your point w the wood and am going downtown today in search of
> some garolite!
> Be well and Thanks so much for all your advice and expertise!
> Lou
>
> On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 04:59 AM, Roger Pihlaja wrote:
>
> > Lou,
> >
> > OK, let's think about what wood is. Wood is a composite of cellulose
> > fibers
> > stuck together with lignin "glue". You can wet out the cellulose wood
> > fibers with epoxy & end up with a composite structure that is
> > relatively
> > more water resistant. However, in an abrasive wear situation with
> > water
> > immersion, like you seem to have in your centerboard well, are you
> > going to
> > trust that the epoxy coating is going to provide long-term
> > waterproofing for
> > the wood? Yes, yes, I know that people build epoxy cedar strip canoes
> > all
> > the time & they seem to work just fine. But, unless you can assure the
> > epoxy resin is going to be infused all thru the wood fibers, I wouldn't
> > trust this MOC in an underwater situation with abrasive wear. The
> > only way
> > I know to assure that kind of epoxy infusion would be to apply the
> > epoxy to
> > the wood in a high pressure autoclave to drive the liquid resin deep
> > into
> > the wood microstructure. Simply wetting out the wood with epoxy won't
> > get
> > to the same state.
> >
> > In contrast, G-10 uses glass fibers and the epoxy resin is uniformly
> > distributed throughout the composite microstructure. Now, even in the
> > presence of abrasive wear, water is not going to penetrate into the
> > G-10
> > composite structure. Even if water did penetrate, the glass fibers
> > are not
> > going to biodegrade over time like the cellulose fibers in wood.
> >
> > The bottom line is, wood strips coated with epoxy will probably be
> > sufficiently stiff to serve in this repair application. Long term
> > durability will be questionable. A repair made with G-10 will be
> > about as
> > bulletproof as I know how to make it, given your situation and
> > available
> > resources.
> >
> > It's your boat so you get to make the call.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lou Rosenberg" <steadilsr at verizon.net>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 10:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?
> >
> >
> >> Roger
> >> back to the plastic for lining btw the cement and the epoxy I will
> >> be
> >> putting over it:
> >> I want to consider just preparing a few pieces of thin wood, wetted
> >> out with epoxy and cured a day before inserting next to the cement
> >> instead of ordering the G 10 garolite. This thin barrier is really
> >> just a way to key the epoxy layer(s) for the final wall of the trunk
> >> so
> >> why couldnt just a light crate type porous wood work here after being
> >> wetted out on both sides?
> >> Just trying to maximize my time here, but be honest if you think I
> >> would be wasting my time with a cheap quick fix with this kind of wood
> >> instead of waiting.. I am also near an industrial plastics place in
> >> Manhattan and wil ask about the special plastic that can key onto
> >> epoxy
> >> and keep its water protection for long periods of time.
> >> Lou
> >>
> >> On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 08:10 PM, Roger Pihlaja wrote:
> >>
> >>> Lou,
> >>>
> >>> If the acetone (2-propanone) evaporates too quickly; then, you can
> >>> use
> >>> methyl
> >>> ethyl ketone (MEK) (2-butanone) as a thinning solvent. The boiling
> >>> point of
> >>> acetone is 56.2 deg C vs. 79.6 deg C for MEK. So, MEK will evaporate
> >>> much
> >>> more slowly than acetone. However, be careful because MEK is
> >>> considerably
> >>> more toxic than acetone.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
> >>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:32 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
> >>> MOC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Todd, Roger:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger,
> >>>> One of My first experiment w WS epoxies I tried using acetone to
> >>>> lower viscosity and it does evap very quickly and of course creates
> >>>> more flammable fumes besides the epoxy fumes.
> >>>> thanks for that option.
> >>>> L
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Funny you should ask. I once had to do a project that involved
> >>>>> spray
> >>>>> coating an epoxy binder into a delicate nonwoven C-fiber batting.
> >>>>> The
> >>>>> unthickened epoxy was too viscous to atomize in a 2-fluid spray
> >>>>> nozzle.
> >>>>> However, it turns out that uncured West system epoxy & catalysts
> >>>>> (They
> >>> are
> >>>>> really epoxy products made by the Dow Chemical Co. - shhh, don't
> >>>>> tell
> >>>>> anyone!) are completely soluble in ketones like acetone or methyl
> >>>>> ethyl
> >>>>> ketone (MEK). If Lou is not getting good penetration into the
> >>>>> cement;
> >>> then,
> >>>>> he can thin out the uncured epoxy with acetone in practically any
> >>> proportion
> >>>>> he needs to get the viscosity low enough. Warning, the acetone
> >>>>> will
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> evaporating during and after application & will create a REALLY
> >>>>> flammable
> >>>>> vapor in the vicinity of the cement. So, good ventillation will be
> >>>>> very
> >>>>> critical in this operation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
> >>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:10 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
> >>>>> MOC
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is there a way to thin a small amount of epoxy to brush onto
> >>>>>> the
> >>> exposed
> >>>>> cement first?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Todd
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> >>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's
> >>>>>> Recommended
> >>> MOC
> >>>>>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:59:18 -0500
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Steve,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> MOC property = Material Of Construction property
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What I was refering to was to trowel in uncured 3M 5200
> >>>>>>> polyurethane
> >>>>>>> adhesive directly over the cement. The 3M 5200 would be the
> >>>>>>> patch
> >>> in
> >>>>> this
> >>>>>>> case. Even cured, this material is no where near stiff enough
> >>>>>>> for
> >>> this
> >>>>>>> application.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I wouldn't use 3M 5200 to attach some other patch material to the
> >>> cement
> >>>>>>> either. 3M 5200 is too viscous to properly soak into the cement
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>> develop
> >>>>>>> a strong bond with it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I suggested using untickened epoxy as a tie layer with the
> >>>>>>> cement.
> >>> The
> >>>>> low
> >>>>>>> viscosity epoxy will soak into the porosity in the cement,
> >>>>>>> creating
> >>> a
> >>>>> deep
> >>>>>>> mechanical & chemical bond with the cement.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 3:43 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's
> >>>>>>> Recommended
> >>> MOC
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Roger
> >>>>>>>> 3-M 5200 polyurethane caulk to
> >>>>>>>>> build up the patch as some
> >>>>>>>>> others have suggested. Polyurethane caulk has the
> >>>>>>>>> wrong MOC properties for
> >>>>>>>>> this application.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't get what you mean here. I wasn't talking
> >>>>>>>> about building up a patch with 3M 5200; 3M 5200 is the
> >>>>>>>> patch if you when that route. Also, what are you
> >>>>>>>> talking about when you say MOC properties?
> >>>>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lou,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I would use prefabricated G-10 sheets. G-10 is a
> >>>>>>>>> composite material made
> >>>>>>>>> from oriented glass fiber & epoxy and it is very
> >>>>>>>>> stiff. You will be able to
> >>>>>>>>> cut it with a saber saw to an exact fit into
> >>>>>>>>> whatever size & shape the hole
> >>>>>>>>> in your centerboard well ends up being. You can
> >>>>>>>>> order G-10 in panels as
> >>>>>>>>> small as 12 inch X 12 inch up to as large as 36 inch
> >>>>>>>>> X 48 inch in any
> >>>>>>>>> thickness ranging from 1/32 inch to 2 inch. Use an
> >>>>>>>>> unthickened epoxy tie
> >>>>>>>>> layer soaked into the cement and also on the cement
> >>>>>>>>> side of the G-10 patch.
> >>>>>>>>> Then, I would use a fiberglass tape laminated with
> >>>>>>>>> epoxy to bridge the
> >>>>>>>>> remaining gap between the G-10 patch and the old
> >>>>>>>>> centerboard well. The
> >>>>>>>>> centerboard well side of the G-10 patch will still
> >>>>>>>>> need the final coat of
> >>>>>>>>> epoxy loaded up with West 422 Barrier Additive.
> >>>>>>>>> G-10 sheets can be ordered
> >>>>>>>>> from:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> McMaster-Carr Supply Company
> >>>>>>>>> 473 Ridge Rd.
> >>>>>>>>> Dayton, NJ 08810-0317
> >>>>>>>>> 732-329-3200 (Sales)
> >>>>>>>>> www.mcmaster.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tell them you want "Grade G-10/FR4 Garolite" in
> >>>>>>>>> whatever sheet size &
> >>>>>>>>> thickness you need.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Note, do not use 3-M 5200 polyurethane caulk to
> >>>>>>>>> build up the patch as some
> >>>>>>>>> others have suggested. Polyurethane caulk has the
> >>>>>>>>> wrong MOC properties for
> >>>>>>>>> this application.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
> >>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >>>>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:22 AM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk surgery
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Roger,
> >>>>>>>>>> I purchase a small cutting disc for my dremel
> >>>>>>>>> yesterday and hope to
> >>>>>>>>>> begin the work on Sun.
> >>>>>>>>>> My plan is to:
> >>>>>>>>>> Remove the cement which is causing the bulge,
> >>>>>>>>> then I will have to
> >>>>>>>>>> insert a thin plastic or metal piece to cover the
> >>>>>>>>> cement as the
> >>>>>>>>>> epoxy will not bond directly to the cement
> >>>>>>>>> effectively.
> >>>>>>>>>> I will sand the thin plastic down for good
> >>>>>>>>> adherance quality and
> >>>>>>>>>> hope to just fit it under snugly to the
> >>>>>>>>> surrounding trunk.
> >>>>>>>>>> any comments/ suggestions??
> >>>>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Do you Yahoo!?
> >>>>>>>> Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
> >>>>>>>> http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> ___________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> >>>>>> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
More information about the Rhodes22-list
mailing list