[Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?
Lou Rosenberg
lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu
Fri Dec 10 11:06:39 EST 2004
>Lou,
Roger,
Well there is no G 10 Garolite downtown so unless there is a Bklyn
or Queens manufacturer who might have some I will order through the
connection you listed yesterday, bookmarked in my IE favorites..
hey I played TROMBONE for a living for 15yrs after college that is
PERSERVERENCE at its best.. thru the dark days of REAGANomics in NYC
where many good musicians were playing on the street for a living,,
fixing a broken CB trunk on my boat is like a freekin' vacation
compared to what I have to do now !!
thanks for the encouragement.. its a day at a time for me!
Lou
>
>You know what they say about the bumblebee? The wonder of the creature is
>not that it flies so well; but, that it can fly at all!
>
>You have a serious structural problem with your Rhodes 22 & limited
>resources to repair it. Many people would throw up their hands & walk away
>when confronted with your situation. But, not you!
>
>I never said your centerboard well repair would be easy or simple. However,
>I think you have a much better chance of ending up with a reasonably
>straight & fair centerboard well if you start with a nice flat piece of
>rigid G-10 sheet as opposed to limp fiberglass mat or cloth & attempt to
>laminate it in situ. I know you will end up with a stronger, more water
>resistant, more abrasion resistant patch. As far as what it looks like;
>well, I don't think there's going to be any substitute for your own Mark I
>eyeballs. If it looks reasonably straight & fair; then, it's probably good
>enough. Remember, it's far more important that the patch be stiff & strong
>& waterproof, not just today, but also 5 years from now. Remember, nobody
>is going to see this patch except you.
>
>Good luck, man!
>
>Roger Pihlaja
>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lou Rosenberg" <steadilsr at verizon.net>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:17 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?
>
>
>> Roger,
>> Ok say I use the Garolite and get it to fit the space where the
>> removed FRP was, do you then recommend just a barrier coat and then the
>> paint? I am going to have to be very careful with the tolerances I
>> create with the new materials and since I have such a mis shaped trunk
>> I really dont have anything to measure for a good standard of what my
>> trunk space should be.
>> I see your point w the wood and am going downtown today in search of
>> some garolite!
>> Be well and Thanks so much for all your advice and expertise!
>> Lou
>>
>> On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 04:59 AM, Roger Pihlaja wrote:
>>
>> > Lou,
>> >
>> > OK, let's think about what wood is. Wood is a composite of cellulose
>> > fibers
>> > stuck together with lignin "glue". You can wet out the cellulose wood
>> > fibers with epoxy & end up with a composite structure that is
>> > relatively
>> > more water resistant. However, in an abrasive wear situation with
>> > water
>> > immersion, like you seem to have in your centerboard well, are you
>> > going to
>> > trust that the epoxy coating is going to provide long-term
>> > waterproofing for
>> > the wood? Yes, yes, I know that people build epoxy cedar strip canoes
>> > all
>> > the time & they seem to work just fine. But, unless you can assure the
>> > epoxy resin is going to be infused all thru the wood fibers, I wouldn't
>> > trust this MOC in an underwater situation with abrasive wear. The
>> > only way
>> > I know to assure that kind of epoxy infusion would be to apply the
>> > epoxy to
>> > the wood in a high pressure autoclave to drive the liquid resin deep
>> > into
>> > the wood microstructure. Simply wetting out the wood with epoxy won't
>> > get
>> > to the same state.
>> >
>> > In contrast, G-10 uses glass fibers and the epoxy resin is uniformly
>> > distributed throughout the composite microstructure. Now, even in the
>> > presence of abrasive wear, water is not going to penetrate into the
> > > G-10
>> > composite structure. Even if water did penetrate, the glass fibers
>> > are not
>> > going to biodegrade over time like the cellulose fibers in wood.
>> >
>> > The bottom line is, wood strips coated with epoxy will probably be
>> > sufficiently stiff to serve in this repair application. Long term
>> > durability will be questionable. A repair made with G-10 will be
>> > about as
>> > bulletproof as I know how to make it, given your situation and
>> > available
>> > resources.
>> >
>> > It's your boat so you get to make the call.
>> >
>> > Roger Pihlaja
>> > S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Lou Rosenberg" <steadilsr at verizon.net>
>> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 10:35 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]Garolite or wetted porous wood?
>> >
>> >
>> >> Roger
>> >> back to the plastic for lining btw the cement and the epoxy I will
>> >> be
>> >> putting over it:
>> >> I want to consider just preparing a few pieces of thin wood, wetted
>> >> out with epoxy and cured a day before inserting next to the cement
>> >> instead of ordering the G 10 garolite. This thin barrier is really
>> >> just a way to key the epoxy layer(s) for the final wall of the trunk
>> >> so
>> >> why couldnt just a light crate type porous wood work here after being
>> >> wetted out on both sides?
>> >> Just trying to maximize my time here, but be honest if you think I
>> >> would be wasting my time with a cheap quick fix with this kind of wood
>> >> instead of waiting.. I am also near an industrial plastics place in
>> >> Manhattan and wil ask about the special plastic that can key onto
>> >> epoxy
>> >> and keep its water protection for long periods of time.
>> >> Lou
>> >>
>> >> On Thursday, December 9, 2004, at 08:10 PM, Roger Pihlaja wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Lou,
>> >>>
>> >>> If the acetone (2-propanone) evaporates too quickly; then, you can
>> >>> use
>> >>> methyl
>> >>> ethyl ketone (MEK) (2-butanone) as a thinning solvent. The boiling
>> >>> point of
>> >>> acetone is 56.2 deg C vs. 79.6 deg C for MEK. So, MEK will evaporate
>> >>> much
>> >>> more slowly than acetone. However, be careful because MEK is
>> >>> considerably
>> >>> more toxic than acetone.
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger Pihlaja
>> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
>> >>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:32 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
>> >>> MOC
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Todd, Roger:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Roger,
>> >>>> One of My first experiment w WS epoxies I tried using acetone to
>> >>>> lower viscosity and it does evap very quickly and of course creates
>> >>>> more flammable fumes besides the epoxy fumes.
>> >>>> thanks for that option.
>> >>>> L
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Funny you should ask. I once had to do a project that involved
>> >>>>> spray
>> >>>>> coating an epoxy binder into a delicate nonwoven C-fiber batting.
>> >>>>> The
>> >>>>> unthickened epoxy was too viscous to atomize in a 2-fluid spray
>> >>>>> nozzle.
>> >>>>> However, it turns out that uncured West system epoxy & catalysts
>> >>>>> (They
>> >>> are
>> >>>>> really epoxy products made by the Dow Chemical Co. - shhh, don't
>> >>>>> tell
>> >>>>> anyone!) are completely soluble in ketones like acetone or methyl
>> >>>>> ethyl
>> >>>>> ketone (MEK). If Lou is not getting good penetration into the
>> >>>>> cement;
>> >>> then,
>> >>>>> he can thin out the uncured epoxy with acetone in practically any
>> >>> proportion
>> >>>>> he needs to get the viscosity low enough. Warning, the acetone
>> >>>>> will
>> >>>>> be
>> >>>>> evaporating during and after application & will create a REALLY
>> >>>>> flammable
>> >>>>> vapor in the vicinity of the cement. So, good ventillation will be
>> >>>>> very
>> >>>>> critical in this operation.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>> >>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
> > >>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:10 PM
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's Recommended
>> >>>>> MOC
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Roger,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Is there a way to thin a small amount of epoxy to brush onto
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>> exposed
>> >>>>> cement first?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Todd
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>> >>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's
>> >>>>>> Recommended
>> >>> MOC
>> >>>>>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:59:18 -0500
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Steve,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> MOC property = Material Of Construction property
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> What I was refering to was to trowel in uncured 3M 5200
>> >>>>>>> polyurethane
>> >>>>>>> adhesive directly over the cement. The 3M 5200 would be the
>> >>>>>>> patch
>> >>> in
>> >>>>> this
>> >>>>>>> case. Even cured, this material is no where near stiff enough
>> >>>>>>> for
>> >>> this
>> >>>>>>> application.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I wouldn't use 3M 5200 to attach some other patch material to the
>> >>> cement
>> >>>>>>> either. 3M 5200 is too viscous to properly soak into the cement
>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>>> develop
>> >>>>>>> a strong bond with it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I suggested using untickened epoxy as a tie layer with the
>> >>>>>>> cement.
>> >>> The
>> >>>>> low
>> >>>>>>> viscosity epoxy will soak into the porosity in the cement,
>> >>>>>>> creating
>> >>> a
>> >>>>> deep
>> >>>>>>> mechanical & chemical bond with the cement.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>> >>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
>> >>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 3:43 PM
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk Surgery - Roger's
>> >>>>>>> Recommended
>> >>> MOC
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Roger
>> >>>>>>>> 3-M 5200 polyurethane caulk to
>> >>>>>>>>> build up the patch as some
>> >>>>>>>>> others have suggested. Polyurethane caulk has the
>> >>>>>>>>> wrong MOC properties for
>> >>>>>>>>> this application.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I don't get what you mean here. I wasn't talking
>> >>>>>>>> about building up a patch with 3M 5200; 3M 5200 is the
>> >>>>>>>> patch if you when that route. Also, what are you
>> >>>>>>>> talking about when you say MOC properties?
>> >>>>>>>> Steve
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Lou,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I would use prefabricated G-10 sheets. G-10 is a
>> >>>>>>>>> composite material made
>> >>>>>>>>> from oriented glass fiber & epoxy and it is very
>> >>>>>>>>> stiff. You will be able to
>> >>>>>>>>> cut it with a saber saw to an exact fit into
>> >>>>>>>>> whatever size & shape the hole
>> >>>>>>>>> in your centerboard well ends up being. You can
>> >>>>>>>>> order G-10 in panels as
>> >>>>>>>>> small as 12 inch X 12 inch up to as large as 36 inch
>> >>>>>>>>> X 48 inch in any
>> >>>>>>>>> thickness ranging from 1/32 inch to 2 inch. Use an
>> >>>>>>>>> unthickened epoxy tie
>> >>>>>>>>> layer soaked into the cement and also on the cement
>> >>>>>>>>> side of the G-10 patch.
>> >>>>>>>>> Then, I would use a fiberglass tape laminated with
>> >>>>>>>>> epoxy to bridge the
>> >>>>>>>>> remaining gap between the G-10 patch and the old
>> >>>>>>>>> centerboard well. The
>> >>>>>>>>> centerboard well side of the G-10 patch will still
>> >>>>>>>>> need the final coat of
>> >>>>>>>>> epoxy loaded up with West 422 Barrier Additive.
>> >>>>>>>>> G-10 sheets can be ordered
>> >>>>>>>>> from:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> McMaster-Carr Supply Company
>> >>>>>>>>> 473 Ridge Rd.
>> >>>>>>>>> Dayton, NJ 08810-0317
>> >>>>>>>>> 732-329-3200 (Sales)
>> >>>>>>>>> www.mcmaster.com
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Tell them you want "Grade G-10/FR4 Garolite" in
>> >>>>>>>>> whatever sheet size &
>> >>>>>>>>> thickness you need.
> > >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Note, do not use 3-M 5200 polyurethane caulk to
>> >>>>>>>>> build up the patch as some
>> >>>>>>>>> others have suggested. Polyurethane caulk has the
>> >>>>>>>>> wrong MOC properties for
>> >>>>>>>>> this application.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>> >>>>>>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>>>> From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
>> >>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>> >>>>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:22 AM
>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] CB trunk surgery
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Roger,
>> >>>>>>>>>> I purchase a small cutting disc for my dremel
>> >>>>>>>>> yesterday and hope to
>> >>>>>>>>>> begin the work on Sun.
>> >>>>>>>>>> My plan is to:
>> >>>>>>>>>> Remove the cement which is causing the bulge,
>> >>>>>>>>> then I will have to
>> >>>>>>>>>> insert a thin plastic or metal piece to cover the
>> >>>>>>>>> cement as the
>> >>>>>>>>>> epoxy will not bond directly to the cement
>> >>>>>>>>> effectively.
>> >>>>>>>>>> I will sand the thin plastic down for good
>> >>>>>>>>> adherance quality and
>> >>>>>>>>>> hope to just fit it under snugly to the
>> >>>>>>>>> surrounding trunk.
>> >>>>>>>>>> any comments/ suggestions??
>> >>>>>>>>>> Lou
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>> >>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>> >>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> __________________________________
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>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
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>> >
>> >
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>>
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