[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam

Steve rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 13 07:40:07 EST 2004


Jim
It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how
can you say they will become a thing of the past?  I
don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has brought
one.  Their heavy and most folks can work on them
themselfs.  When you are out on the water & your motor
goes out; being able to work on it yourself is more
important than polluting the air and/or water. 
Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are
not the big factor that pollute water.  That like
saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
people.  Everyone know that being FAT is the #1 health
problem.  2 stroke will not be done away with except
on small bodies of water (that if the facts were known
are poluted by things other that oil)  & Calaforia
(where all the crazy enviromentists live).  The
reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that they
get all the repair business.  Why fall into that game.
 If you want to throw away your money; give it to me;
I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
Steve


--- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> 
>    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no only
> in sailors circles,
>    but motorboat circles and generates spirited and
> lively debate- it's
>    akin to arguing religion or politics. As a former
> mechanic turned
>    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with
> outboards, and repair
>    shops at our facility each day. We probably log
> more water time than
>    the average individual (I would guess). Here are
> some of the things
>    that I have become aware of over the past several
> years:
>    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a
> thing of the past.
>    Pressure at the federal level to reduce emissions
> in the water, as
>    well as the air will cause the death of the
> 2-stroke. Common sense
>    then tells us that it will become increasingly
> difficult to obtain
>    parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes
> all engines pollute,
>    and modern two strokes pollute much less than
> older ones. There are
>    real fears out there like folks who mix their oil
> in the field (i.e.
>    in the parking lot or out on the water, and spill
> directly, or older 2
>    strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
> addition of the oil,
>    running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> pots").....these are all well
>    founded fears that the regulators & and
> environmentalists (especially)
>    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
>    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently heavier
> than two strokes to a
>    certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or
> so), at which time the
>    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great
> deal of difference to
>    the small engine/small boat owner, especially
> ones like
>    us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the
> weight of those smaller
>    engines though, and the gap is closing there.
>    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation have
> a higher low end
>    torque which can be useful if you're powering a
> boat that needs to
>    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually doesn't
> apply to sailcraft.
>    However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing that
> gap also.
>    4. According to our shops, four stroke engines
> have fewer problems,
>    and see far less down time and many of our former
> two stroke engine
>    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> especially sailboat owners are
>    now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a
> major selling point.
>    However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a
> more costly repair
>    than a comparable two stroke, but again, with
> design changes in both
>    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
>    In any event, our facility has now plunged into
> the 4 stroke world
>    along with the tide of others. BTW I have a 2002
> 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
>    auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for my
> newly acquired
>    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
>    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> diatribe/dissertation...
>    JDWHITE
>    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> 
>      Wally
>      I can't remember where I read the article about
> 2
>      strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
>      probably.  But I would think you are right.  If
> the
>      smaller motors don't already; its just a matter
> of
>      time.
>      Steve
>      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes
> were only
>      > coming out in the
>      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think
> that the
>      > technolgy will trickly
>      > down to the smaller motors as well but you
> never
>      > know.....
>      >
>      > Wally
>      >
>      >
>      > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
>      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes 22
> mail
>      > list
>      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle
>      > smoke
>      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
>      > >
>      > >Steve,
>      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
> are not
>      > smoke pots.  They
>      > >more than comply with the current
> environmental
>      > standards and they will
>      > >comply with the new impending standards.
>      > >     As for using oil, all gas motors use
> oil and some
>      > of that
>      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The issue is
> how
>      > much of that oil and gas
>      > >is wasted directly into the environment. 
> The old 2
>      > cycle engines did
>      > >not care.  However, the EPA standards got
> the
>      > manufacturers attention
>      > >and the new engines do not statistically
> pollute
>      > the environment more
>      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> pollutants.
>      > All gas engines
>      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree.  When
> that
>      > degree is evaluated
>      > >statistically is the difference significant?
>      > Simply put, will the
>      > >impact difference between the two types of
> motors
>      > on the environment
>      > >really matter?  A few years ago the answer
> was yes,
>      > however, with design
>      > >changes the effects are no longer
> statistically
>      > significant.  They both
>      > >pollute.
>      > >
>      > >                                       Ed K
>      > >-----Original Message-----
>      > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      >
> >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>      > Behalf Of Steve
>      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
>      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle
>      > >
>      > >I thought the reason they came out with 4
> strocks
>      > were
>      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know,
> you
>      > have
>      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> non-smoking
>      > >part.  You can now have a smoking part of a
> lake; &
>      > a
>      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks
> that go
>      > 4
>      > >stoke; that means the more folks that can go
> 2
>      > stoke.
>      > >And the enviroment only get poluted the same
> amount
>      > >that we have always done for years:-)Beside,
> we
>      > need a
>      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps here are
> in the
>      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to polute
> quite a
>      > bit
>      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so are
> winter
>      > stay
>      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
>      > Michael:-)
>      > >Steve
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> wrote:
>      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
> sessions
>      > version
>      > > > of the question, "So how much harm are
> you
>      > willing
>      > > > to cause, like: frogs
>      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> miscarry,
>      > children
>      > > > born with birth defects, men going
> impememnt,
>      > etc..
>      > > > so you can selflessy use
>      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife
> to day
>      > :-)
>      > > >
>      > > > MJM
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
>      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12
> AM
>      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> cycle
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > > Rummy,
>      > > > > Here we go again.  I know better than
> question
>      > the
>      > > > technical
>      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> eloquent
>      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
>      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself. 
> Roger
>      > forgets
>      > > > that not everybody has
>      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is the old
>      > problem of
>      > > > being able to see a
>      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
>      > > > > Ed K
>      > > > >
>      > > > > -----Original Message-----
>      > > > > From:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      > > > >
> [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
>      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52
> AM
>      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> Water
>      > Pump
>      > > > Replacement
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Jay,
>      > > > >
>      > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
>      > impellors on
>      > > > small outboards is
>      > > > > that
>      > > > > they are made from some sort of rubber.
>  It's
>      > > > really a rather clever
>      > > > > design.
>      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber
> vanes
>      > on
>      > > > the impellor touch the
>      > > > > water
>      > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
> positive
>      > > > displacement & self-priming.
>      > > > > At
>      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
> out of
>      > the
>      > > > way & ride on top of a
>      > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
> surface
>      > of
>      > > > the water pump housing.
>      > > > > At
>      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't experience
> any
>      > wear
>      > > > because they are not
>      > > > > touching the pump housing.  This design
> makes
>      > the
>      > > > water pump capable of
>      > > > > automatically switching from positive
>      > displacement
>      > > > mode to centrifugal
>      > > > > mode
>      > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> cooling
>      > water
>      > > > required by high speed
>      > > > > operation.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if the water
> pump
>      > ever
>      > > > runs dry, the rubber
>      > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
> cooling
>      > > > provided by the water,
>      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> quickly, like
>      > in a
>      > > > few seconds!
>      > > > > Exposure to
>      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
> oil film
>      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
>      > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
> the
>      > rubber
>      > > > polymer molecules in the
>      > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
> cracking,
>      > and
>      > > > failure.  This is
>      > > > > probably
>      > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
>      > mechanism.
>      > > > Pump impellors should
>      > > > > be
>      > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to
> this
>      > cause
>      > > > alone.  There is also
>      > > > > another common failure mechanism
> related to
>      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
>      > > > > is
>      > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
> cooling
>      > > > system drains down.  This
>      > > > > is
>      > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> self-priming at
>      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
>      > > > > water &
>      > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
> amount
>      > of
>      > > > dissolved mineral salts
>      > > > > in
>      > > > > it.  When the cooling system drains
> down, a
>      > small
>      > > > amount of water is
>      > > > > left
>      > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
> vanes on
>      > the
>      > > > water pump impellor &
>      > > > > the
>      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When this water
>      > eventually
>      > > > evaporates in
>      > > > > storage,
>      > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
> salt
>      > crystals
>      > > > to the pump housing.
>      > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond is,
> the
>      > rubber
>      > > > impellor can be
>      > > > > damaged
>      > > > > the next time the engine is started
> when the
>      > vanes
>      > > > are ripped free of
>      > > > > the
>      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition, for the
> 1st few
>      > > > minutes of operation,
>      > > > > before
>      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
>      > relatively
>      > > > rough surface on the
>      > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
> vanes have
>      > to
>      > > > run over on every
>      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can be
> corrosion
>      > > > issues with moist salt
>      > > > > crystals
>      > > > > in long-term contact with the aluminum
> pump
>      > > > housing in this scenario.
>      > > > > In
>      > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> practice to
>      > fresh
>      > > > water flush the
>      > > > > cooling
>      > > > > system after every use & certainly
> before
>      > > > long-term storage.  After
>      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to
> fresh
>      > water
>      > > > flush the cooling
>      > > > > system
>      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of my
> outboard
>      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
>      > > > > flush
>      > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV
> "red
>      > pop")
>      > > > thru the cooling
>      > > > > systems
>      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene glycol will
>      > prevent
>      > > > the build-up of salt
>      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
> water
>      > pump
>      > > > housing.  During the
>      > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
> gently
>      > pull
>      > > > the outboard thru with
>      > > > > the
>      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to break
> the
>      > water
>      > > > pump impellor free &
>      > > > > give
>      > > > > the engine several minutes of low speed
>      > warm-up.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
> ever had
>      > fail
>      > > > on any of my
>      > > > > outboards in
>      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time when
> my
>      > younger
>      > > > son Gary ran the
>      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> outboard up on
>      > the
>      > > > beach with the engine
>      > > > > at
>      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump impellor
> was
>      > burnt
>      > > > to a crisp!
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Good luck!
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
>      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
>      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
>      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25
> AM
>      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> Water
>      > Pump
>      > > > Replacement
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
> maybe
>      > the
>      > > > impeller very 4 years,
>      > > > > but
>      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
> putting
>      > 25-50
>      > > > hours on
>      > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
> do have
>      > to
>      > > > watch is salt on the
>      > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean
> the pee
>      > tub
>      > > > yearly), is
>      > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
> that is
>      > not
>      > > > rust proof, time will
>      > > > > get
>      > > > > it and they need to be replace every
> two
>      > years,
>      > > > luckily it
>      > > > > > is also a simple job that you can do
>      > yourself.
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > MJM
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> <a.jayf at verizon.net>
>      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
> 11:25 AM
>      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> Water
>      > Pump
>      > > > Replacement
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > > Folks,
>      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> recommends
>      > > > replacing the water pump
>      > > > > assembly
>      > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with
> this
>      > the
>      > > > first year in service.
>      > > > > I'm
>      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> occasionally
>      > flush
>      > > > with ear muffs (once a
>      > > > > > > month), and end of season run it in
> a
>      > barrel
>      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
>      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
> etc.).
>      > > > > > >
>      > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
>      > proceeding
>      > > > with this replacement
>      > > > > or
>      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
>      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
>      > > > > > >
>      > > > > > >
>      > > >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
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>      > > >
>      >
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