[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
Steve
rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 13 07:48:33 EST 2004
One thing that I would add. When you go to buy a new
motor; pop off the cover and ask yourself - What would
I do if it stop working far from shore? Make you
think!!! FYI- Has everyone seen these Big Bass Boats
with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you notice they
all are carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
Kicker:-) Wonder why???????????????
Steve
--- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jim
> It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how
> can you say they will become a thing of the past? I
> don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has
> brought
> one. Their heavy and most folks can work on them
> themselfs. When you are out on the water & your
> motor
> goes out; being able to work on it yourself is more
> important than polluting the air and/or water.
> Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are
> not the big factor that pollute water. That like
> saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
> people. Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> health
> problem. 2 stroke will not be done away with except
> on small bodies of water (that if the facts were
> known
> are poluted by things other that oil) & Calaforia
> (where all the crazy enviromentists live). The
> reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that
> they
> get all the repair business. Why fall into that
> game.
> If you want to throw away your money; give it to
> me;
> I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
> Steve
>
>
> --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> >
> > The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no
> only
> > in sailors circles,
> > but motorboat circles and generates spirited
> and
> > lively debate- it's
> > akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> former
> > mechanic turned
> > biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with
> > outboards, and repair
> > shops at our facility each day. We probably log
> > more water time than
> > the average individual (I would guess). Here
> are
> > some of the things
> > that I have become aware of over the past
> several
> > years:
> > 1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a
> > thing of the past.
> > Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> emissions
> > in the water, as
> > well as the air will cause the death of the
> > 2-stroke. Common sense
> > then tells us that it will become increasingly
> > difficult to obtain
> > parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes
> > all engines pollute,
> > and modern two strokes pollute much less than
> > older ones. There are
> > real fears out there like folks who mix their
> oil
> > in the field (i.e.
> > in the parking lot or out on the water, and
> spill
> > directly, or older 2
> > strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
> > addition of the oil,
> > running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > pots").....these are all well
> > founded fears that the regulators & and
> > environmentalists (especially)
> > justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> > 2. Four stroke engines are inherently heavier
> > than two strokes to a
> > certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or
> > so), at which time the
> > weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great
> > deal of difference to
> > the small engine/small boat owner, especially
> > ones like
> > us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the
> > weight of those smaller
> > engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> > 3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation
> have
> > a higher low end
> > torque which can be useful if you're powering a
> > boat that needs to
> > "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> doesn't
> > apply to sailcraft.
> > However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing
> that
> > gap also.
> > 4. According to our shops, four stroke engines
> > have fewer problems,
> > and see far less down time and many of our
> former
> > two stroke engine
> > fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > especially sailboat owners are
> > now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a
> > major selling point.
> > However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a
> > more costly repair
> > than a comparable two stroke, but again, with
> > design changes in both
> > engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > In any event, our facility has now plunged into
> > the 4 stroke world
> > along with the tide of others. BTW I have a
> 2002
> > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for
> my
> > newly acquired
> > Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > diatribe/dissertation...
> > JDWHITE
> > At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > Wally
> > I can't remember where I read the article
> about
> > 2
> > strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> > probably. But I would think you are right.
> If
> > the
> > smaller motors don't already; its just a
> matter
> > of
> > time.
> > Steve
> > --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes
> > were only
> > > coming out in the
> > > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think
> > that the
> > > technolgy will trickly
> > > down to the smaller motors as well but you
> > never
> > > know.....
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes
> 22
> > mail
> > > list
> > > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs
> 4
> > cycle
> > > smoke
> > > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Steve,
> > > > The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
> > are not
> > > smoke pots. They
> > > >more than comply with the current
> > environmental
> > > standards and they will
> > > >comply with the new impending standards.
> > > > As for using oil, all gas motors use
> > oil and some
> > > of that
> > > >lubricating oil is combusted. The issue
> is
> > how
> > > much of that oil and gas
> > > >is wasted directly into the environment.
> > The old 2
> > > cycle engines did
> > > >not care. However, the EPA standards got
> > the
> > > manufacturers attention
> > > >and the new engines do not statistically
> > pollute
> > > the environment more
> > > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> > pollutants.
> > > All gas engines
> > > >pollute. It is a matter of degree. When
> > that
> > > degree is evaluated
> > > >statistically is the difference
> significant?
> > > Simply put, will the
> > > >impact difference between the two types of
> > motors
> > > on the environment
> > > >really matter? A few years ago the answer
> > was yes,
> > > however, with design
> > > >changes the effects are no longer
> > statistically
> > > significant. They both
> > > >pollute.
> > > >
> > > > Ed
> K
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >
> > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Steve
> > > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> > > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle
> > > >
> > > >I thought the reason they came out with 4
> > strocks
> > > were
> > > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You
> know,
> > you
> > > have
> > > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> > non-smoking
> > > >part. You can now have a smoking part of
> a
> > lake; &
> > > a
> > > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks
> > that go
> > > 4
> > > >stoke; that means the more folks that can
> go
> > 2
> > > stoke.
> > > >And the enviroment only get poluted the
> same
> > amount
> > > >that we have always done for
> years:-)Beside,
> > we
> > > need a
> > > >little more Globle warming. Temps here
> are
> > in the
> > > >40s. That evendent that we need to polute
> > quite a
> > > bit
> > > >more. Arkansas need to be warm up so are
> > winter
> > > stay
> > > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> > > Michael:-)
> > > >Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Michael Meltzer
> <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
> > sessions
> > > version
> > > > > of the question, "So how much harm are
> > you
> > > willing
> > > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> > miscarry,
> > > children
> > > > > born with birth defects, men going
> > impememnt,
> > > etc..
> > > > > so you can selflessy use
> > > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your
> wife
> > to day
> > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > MJM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12
> > AM
> > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> > cycle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rummy,
> > > > > > Here we go again. I know better than
> > question
> > > the
> > > > > technical
> > > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> > eloquent
> > > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
> > Roger
> > > forgets
> > > > > that not everybody has
> > > > > > two robust sons to help. It is the
> old
> > > problem of
> > > > > being able to see a
> > > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From:
> > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >
> > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> 7:52
> > AM
> > > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> 9.9
> > Water
> > > Pump
> > > > > Replacement
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jay,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> > > impellors on
> > > > > small outboards is
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > they are made from some sort of
> rubber.
> > It's
> > > > > really a rather clever
> > > > > > design.
> > > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> rubber
> > vanes
> > > on
> > > > > the impellor touch the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
> > positive
> > > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > > > > > At
> > > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
> > out of
> > > the
> > > > > way & ride on top of a
> > > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
> > surface
> > > of
> > > > > the water pump housing.
> > > > > > At
> > > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> experience
> > any
> > > wear
> > > > > because they are not
> > > > > > touching the pump housing. This
> design
> > makes
> > > the
> > > > > water pump capable of
> > > > > > automatically switching from positive
> > > displacement
> > > > > mode to centrifugal
> > > > > > mode
> > > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> > cooling
> > > water
> > > > > required by high speed
> > > > > > operation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what goes wrong? Well, if the
> water
> > pump
> > > ever
> > > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
> > cooling
> > > > > provided by the water,
> > > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > quickly, like
> > > in a
> > > > > few seconds!
> > > > > > Exposure to
> > > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
> > oil film
> > > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
> > the
> > > rubber
> > > > > polymer molecules in the
> > > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
> > cracking,
> > > and
> > > > > failure. This is
> > > > > > probably
> > > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> > > mechanism.
> > > > > Pump impellors should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due
> to
> > this
> > > cause
> > > > > alone. There is also
> > > > > > another common failure mechanism
> > related to
> > > > > storage. When the lower leg
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
> > cooling
> > > > > system drains down. This
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > self-priming at
> > > > > start-up. Even fresh
> > > > > > water &
> > > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
> > amount
> > > of
> > > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > it. When the cooling system drains
> > down, a
> > > small
> > > > > amount of water is
> > > > > > left
> > > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
> > vanes on
> > > the
> > > > > water pump impellor &
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > aluminum pump housing. When this
> water
> > > eventually
> > > > > evaporates in
> > > > > > storage,
> > > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
> > salt
> > > crystals
> > > > > to the pump housing.
> > > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond
> is,
> > the
> > > rubber
> > > > > impellor can be
> > > > > > damaged
> > > > > > the next time the engine is started
> > when the
> > > vanes
> > > > > are ripped free of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > salt crystals. In addition, for the
> > 1st few
> > > > > minutes of operation,
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form
> a
> > > relatively
> > > > > rough surface on the
> > > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
> > vanes have
> > > to
> > > > > run over on every
> > > > > > revolution. Finally, there can be
> > corrosion
> > > > > issues with moist salt
> > > > > > crystals
> > > > > > in long-term contact with the
> aluminum
> > pump
> > > > > housing in this scenario.
> > > > > > In
> > > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> > practice to
> > > fresh
> > > > > water flush the
> > > > > > cooling
> > > > > > system after every use & certainly
> > before
> > > > > long-term storage. After
> > > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt
> to
> > fresh
> > > water
> > > > > flush the cooling
> > > > > > system
> > > > > > prior to start-up. As part of my
> > outboard
> > > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > > > > > flush
> > > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze
> (RV
> > "red
> > > pop")
> > > > > thru the cooling
> > > > > > systems
> > > > > > of my outboards. propylene glycol
> will
> > > prevent
> > > > > the build-up of salt
> > > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
> > water
> > > pump
> > > > > housing. During the
> > > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
> > gently
> > > pull
> > > > > the outboard thru with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to
> break
> > the
> > > water
> > > > > pump impellor free &
> > > > > > give
> > > > > > the engine several minutes of low
> speed
> > > warm-up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
> > ever had
> > > fail
> > > > > on any of my
> > > > > > outboards in
> > > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time
> when
> > my
> > > younger
> > > > > son Gary ran the
> > > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > outboard up on
> > > the
> > > > > beach with the engine
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > full throttle. The water pump
> impellor
> > was
> > > burnt
> > > > > to a crisp!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> 2:25
> > AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> 9.9
> > Water
> > > Pump
> > > > > Replacement
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
> > maybe
> > > the
> > > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
> > putting
> > > 25-50
> > > > > hours on
> > > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
> > do have
> > > to
> > > > > watch is salt on the
> > > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> clean
> > the pee
> > > tub
> > > > > yearly), is
> > > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
> > that is
> > > not
> > > > > rust proof, time will
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > it and they need to be replace every
> > two
> > > years,
> > > > > luckily it
> > > > > > > is also a simple job that you can
> do
> > > yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > MJM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
> > 11:25 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> > Water
> > > Pump
> > > > > Replacement
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > recommends
> > > > > replacing the water pump
> > > > > > assembly
> > > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001
> with
> > this
> > > the
> > > > > first year in service.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > occasionally
> > > flush
> > > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > > > > > > > month), and end of season run it
> in
> > a
> > > barrel
> > > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
> > etc.).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> > > proceeding
> > > > > with this replacement
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > > > > > > > Thanks, Jay
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
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