[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam

Russell Miller re.miller at att.net
Mon Feb 16 18:22:27 EST 2004


They need the smaller motor for troling, etc.  The big one does not throttle
down enough.

Russ
s/v Bulldog
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam


> One thing that I would add.  When you go to buy a new
> motor; pop off the cover and ask yourself - What would
> I do if it stop working far from shore?  Make you
> think!!!  FYI- Has everyone seen these Big Bass Boats
> with those big 4 stroke motor - Have you notice they
> all are carrying nowadays a 9.9 or 25 hp 2 stroke
> Kicker:-)  Wonder why???????????????
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Steve <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Jim
> > It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how
> > can you say they will become a thing of the past?  I
> > don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has
> > brought
> > one.  Their heavy and most folks can work on them
> > themselfs.  When you are out on the water & your
> > motor
> > goes out; being able to work on it yourself is more
> > important than polluting the air and/or water.
> > Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are
> > not the big factor that pollute water.  That like
> > saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
> > people.  Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> > health
> > problem.  2 stroke will not be done away with except
> > on small bodies of water (that if the facts were
> > known
> > are poluted by things other that oil)  & Calaforia
> > (where all the crazy enviromentists live).  The
> > reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that
> > they
> > get all the repair business.  Why fall into that
> > game.
> >  If you want to throw away your money; give it to
> > me;
> > I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no
> > only
> > > in sailors circles,
> > >    but motorboat circles and generates spirited
> > and
> > > lively debate- it's
> > >    akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> > former
> > > mechanic turned
> > >    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with
> > > outboards, and repair
> > >    shops at our facility each day. We probably log
> > > more water time than
> > >    the average individual (I would guess). Here
> > are
> > > some of the things
> > >    that I have become aware of over the past
> > several
> > > years:
> > >    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a
> > > thing of the past.
> > >    Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> > emissions
> > > in the water, as
> > >    well as the air will cause the death of the
> > > 2-stroke. Common sense
> > >    then tells us that it will become increasingly
> > > difficult to obtain
> > >    parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes
> > > all engines pollute,
> > >    and modern two strokes pollute much less than
> > > older ones. There are
> > >    real fears out there like folks who mix their
> > oil
> > > in the field (i.e.
> > >    in the parking lot or out on the water, and
> > spill
> > > directly, or older 2
> > >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
> > > addition of the oil,
> > >    running around rich and smokey ("smoke
> > > pots").....these are all well
> > >    founded fears that the regulators & and
> > > environmentalists (especially)
> > >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> > >    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently heavier
> > > than two strokes to a
> > >    certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or
> > > so), at which time the
> > >    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great
> > > deal of difference to
> > >    the small engine/small boat owner, especially
> > > ones like
> > >    us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the
> > > weight of those smaller
> > >    engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> > >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation
> > have
> > > a higher low end
> > >    torque which can be useful if you're powering a
> > > boat that needs to
> > >    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> > doesn't
> > > apply to sailcraft.
> > >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing
> > that
> > > gap also.
> > >    4. According to our shops, four stroke engines
> > > have fewer problems,
> > >    and see far less down time and many of our
> > former
> > > two stroke engine
> > >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
> > > especially sailboat owners are
> > >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a
> > > major selling point.
> > >    However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a
> > > more costly repair
> > >    than a comparable two stroke, but again, with
> > > design changes in both
> > >    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> > >    In any event, our facility has now plunged into
> > > the 4 stroke world
> > >    along with the tide of others. BTW I have a
> > 2002
> > > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> > >    auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for
> > my
> > > newly acquired
> > >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> > >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
> > > diatribe/dissertation...
> > >    JDWHITE
> > >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> > >
> > >      Wally
> > >      I can't remember where I read the article
> > about
> > > 2
> > >      strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> > >      probably.  But I would think you are right.
> > If
> > > the
> > >      smaller motors don't already; its just a
> > matter
> > > of
> > >      time.
> > >      Steve
> > >      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes
> > > were only
> > >      > coming out in the
> > >      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think
> > > that the
> > >      > technolgy will trickly
> > >      > down to the smaller motors as well but you
> > > never
> > >      > know.....
> > >      >
> > >      > Wally
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > >      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes
> > 22
> > > mail
> > >      > list
> > >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs
> > 4
> > > cycle
> > >      > smoke
> > >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> > >      > >
> > >      > >Steve,
> > >      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
> > > are not
> > >      > smoke pots.  They
> > >      > >more than comply with the current
> > > environmental
> > >      > standards and they will
> > >      > >comply with the new impending standards.
> > >      > >     As for using oil, all gas motors use
> > > oil and some
> > >      > of that
> > >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The issue
> > is
> > > how
> > >      > much of that oil and gas
> > >      > >is wasted directly into the environment.
> > > The old 2
> > >      > cycle engines did
> > >      > >not care.  However, the EPA standards got
> > > the
> > >      > manufacturers attention
> > >      > >and the new engines do not statistically
> > > pollute
> > >      > the environment more
> > >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
> > > pollutants.
> > >      > All gas engines
> > >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree.  When
> > > that
> > >      > degree is evaluated
> > >      > >statistically is the difference
> > significant?
> > >      > Simply put, will the
> > >      > >impact difference between the two types of
> > > motors
> > >      > on the environment
> > >      > >really matter?  A few years ago the answer
> > > was yes,
> > >      > however, with design
> > >      > >changes the effects are no longer
> > > statistically
> > >      > significant.  They both
> > >      > >pollute.
> > >      > >
> > >      > >                                       Ed
> > K
> > >      > >-----Original Message-----
> > >      > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >      >
> > > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > >      > Behalf Of Steve
> > >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> > >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> > > cycle
> > >      > >
> > >      > >I thought the reason they came out with 4
> > > strocks
> > >      > were
> > >      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You
> > know,
> > > you
> > >      > have
> > >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
> > > non-smoking
> > >      > >part.  You can now have a smoking part of
> > a
> > > lake; &
> > >      > a
> > >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks
> > > that go
> > >      > 4
> > >      > >stoke; that means the more folks that can
> > go
> > > 2
> > >      > stoke.
> > >      > >And the enviroment only get poluted the
> > same
> > > amount
> > >      > >that we have always done for
> > years:-)Beside,
> > > we
> > >      > need a
> > >      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps here
> > are
> > > in the
> > >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to polute
> > > quite a
> > >      > bit
> > >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so are
> > > winter
> > >      > stay
> > >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> > >      > Michael:-)
> > >      > >Steve
> > >      > >
> > >      > >
> > >      > >--- Michael Meltzer
> > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
> > > sessions
> > >      > version
> > >      > > > of the question, "So how much harm are
> > > you
> > >      > willing
> > >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
> > >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
> > > miscarry,
> > >      > children
> > >      > > > born with birth defects, men going
> > > impememnt,
> > >      > etc..
> > >      > > > so you can selflessy use
> > >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your
> > wife
> > > to day
> > >      > :-)
> > >      > > >
> > >      > > > MJM
> > >      > > >
> > >      > > >
> > >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >      > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> > >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12
> > > AM
> > >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
> > > cycle
> > >      > > >
> > >      > > >
> > >      > > > > Rummy,
> > >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know better than
> > > question
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > technical
> > >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
> > > eloquent
> > >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> > >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
> > > Roger
> > >      > forgets
> > >      > > > that not everybody has
> > >      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is the
> > old
> > >      > problem of
> > >      > > > being able to see a
> > >      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> > >      > > > > Ed K
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >      > > > > From:
> > > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >      > > > >
> > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 7:52
> > > AM
> > >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > Water
> > >      > Pump
> > >      > > > Replacement
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > Jay,
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> > >      > impellors on
> > >      > > > small outboards is
> > >      > > > > that
> > >      > > > > they are made from some sort of
> > rubber.
> > >  It's
> > >      > > > really a rather clever
> > >      > > > > design.
> > >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> > rubber
> > > vanes
> > >      > on
> > >      > > > the impellor touch the
> > >      > > > > water
> > >      > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
> > > positive
> > >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
> > >      > > > > At
> > >      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
> > > out of
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > way & ride on top of a
> > >      > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
> > > surface
> > >      > of
> > >      > > > the water pump housing.
> > >      > > > > At
> > >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> > experience
> > > any
> > >      > wear
> > >      > > > because they are not
> > >      > > > > touching the pump housing.  This
> > design
> > > makes
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > water pump capable of
> > >      > > > > automatically switching from positive
> > >      > displacement
> > >      > > > mode to centrifugal
> > >      > > > > mode
> > >      > > > > for delivering the high volume of
> > > cooling
> > >      > water
> > >      > > > required by high speed
> > >      > > > > operation.
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if the
> > water
> > > pump
> > >      > ever
> > >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
> > >      > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
> > > cooling
> > >      > > > provided by the water,
> > >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
> > > quickly, like
> > >      > in a
> > >      > > > few seconds!
> > >      > > > > Exposure to
> > >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
> > > oil film
> > >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> > >      > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
> > > the
> > >      > rubber
> > >      > > > polymer molecules in the
> > >      > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
> > > cracking,
> > >      > and
> > >      > > > failure.  This is
> > >      > > > > probably
> > >      > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> > >      > mechanism.
> > >      > > > Pump impellors should
> > >      > > > > be
> > >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due
> > to
> > > this
> > >      > cause
> > >      > > > alone.  There is also
> > >      > > > > another common failure mechanism
> > > related to
> > >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
> > >      > > > > is
> > >      > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
> > > cooling
> > >      > > > system drains down.  This
> > >      > > > > is
> > >      > > > > why the water pump needs to be
> > > self-priming at
> > >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
> > >      > > > > water &
> > >      > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
> > > amount
> > >      > of
> > >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
> > >      > > > > in
> > >      > > > > it.  When the cooling system drains
> > > down, a
> > >      > small
> > >      > > > amount of water is
> > >      > > > > left
> > >      > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
> > > vanes on
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > water pump impellor &
> > >      > > > > the
> > >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When this
> > water
> > >      > eventually
> > >      > > > evaporates in
> > >      > > > > storage,
> > >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
> > > salt
> > >      > crystals
> > >      > > > to the pump housing.
> > >      > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond
> > is,
> > > the
> > >      > rubber
> > >      > > > impellor can be
> > >      > > > > damaged
> > >      > > > > the next time the engine is started
> > > when the
> > >      > vanes
> > >      > > > are ripped free of
> > >      > > > > the
> > >      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition, for the
> > > 1st few
> > >      > > > minutes of operation,
> > >      > > > > before
> > >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form
> > a
> > >      > relatively
> > >      > > > rough surface on the
> > >      > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
> > > vanes have
> > >      > to
> > >      > > > run over on every
> > >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can be
> > > corrosion
> > >      > > > issues with moist salt
> > >      > > > > crystals
> > >      > > > > in long-term contact with the
> > aluminum
> > > pump
> > >      > > > housing in this scenario.
> > >      > > > > In
> > >      > > > > salt water, it's considered good
> > > practice to
> > >      > fresh
> > >      > > > water flush the
> > >      > > > > cooling
> > >      > > > > system after every use & certainly
> > > before
> > >      > > > long-term storage.  After
> > >      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt
> > to
> > > fresh
> > >      > water
> > >      > > > flush the cooling
> > >      > > > > system
> > >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of my
> > > outboard
> > >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> > >      > > > > flush
> > >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze
> > (RV
> > > "red
> > >      > pop")
> > >      > > > thru the cooling
> > >      > > > > systems
> > >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene glycol
> > will
> > >      > prevent
> > >      > > > the build-up of salt
> > >      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
> > > water
> > >      > pump
> > >      > > > housing.  During the
> > >      > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
> > > gently
> > >      > pull
> > >      > > > the outboard thru with
> > >      > > > > the
> > >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to
> > break
> > > the
> > >      > water
> > >      > > > pump impellor free &
> > >      > > > > give
> > >      > > > > the engine several minutes of low
> > speed
> > >      > warm-up.
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
> > > ever had
> > >      > fail
> > >      > > > on any of my
> > >      > > > > outboards in
> > >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time
> > when
> > > my
> > >      > younger
> > >      > > > son Gary ran the
> > >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
> > > outboard up on
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > beach with the engine
> > >      > > > > at
> > >      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump
> > impellor
> > > was
> > >      > burnt
> > >      > > > to a crisp!
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > Good luck!
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> > >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> > >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> > 2:25
> > > AM
> > >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha
> > 9.9
> > > Water
> > >      > Pump
> > >      > > > Replacement
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
> > > maybe
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
> > >      > > > > but
> > >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
> > > putting
> > >      > 25-50
> > >      > > > hours on
> > >      > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
> > > do have
> > >      > to
> > >      > > > watch is salt on the
> > >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> > clean
> > > the pee
> > >      > tub
> > >      > > > yearly), is
> > >      > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
> > > that is
> > >      > not
> > >      > > > rust proof, time will
> > >      > > > > get
> > >      > > > > it and they need to be replace every
> > > two
> > >      > years,
> > >      > > > luckily it
> > >      > > > > > is also a simple job that you can
> > do
> > >      > yourself.
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > > > MJM
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
> > > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> > >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
> > > 11:25 AM
> > >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
> > > Water
> > >      > Pump
> > >      > > > Replacement
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > > > > Folks,
> > >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
> > > recommends
> > >      > > > replacing the water pump
> > >      > > > > assembly
> > >      > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001
> > with
> > > this
> > >      > the
> > >      > > > first year in service.
> > >      > > > > I'm
> > >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
> > > occasionally
> > >      > flush
> > >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
> > >      > > > > > > month), and end of season run it
> > in
> > > a
> > >      > barrel
> > >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> > >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
> > > etc.).
> > >      > > > > > >
> > >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> > >      > proceeding
> > >      > > > with this replacement
> > >      > > > > or
> > >      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> > >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
> > >      > > > > > >
> > >      > > > > > >
> > >      > > >
> > >      >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      > > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > > Help?
> > >      > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      > > > > > >
> > >      > > > > > >
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > >
> > >      >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      > > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> > Help?
> > >      > > > [4]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >      > > > [5]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >      > > > [6]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > > >
> > >      > > >
> > >      > > >
> > >      >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >      > >[7]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      > >
> > >      > >
> > >      > >__________________________________
> > >      > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > >      > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> > > filing
> > >      > online.
> > >      > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >      >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >      > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >      > [9]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      > >
> > >      > >
> > >      >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >      > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >      > [10]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > >      > Keep up with high-tech trends here at
> > "Hook'd
> > > on
> > >      > Technology."
> > >      >
> > > [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >      [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >      __________________________________
> > >      Do you Yahoo!?
> > >      Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> > filing
> > > online.
> > >      [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >      Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > >    1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >    2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >    3. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >    4. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >    5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >    6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >    7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >    8. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >    9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >   10. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >   11.
> > http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
> > >   12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >   13. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > >   14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> > online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list



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