[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam

Jim White jdwhite at panam.edu
Fri Feb 13 09:52:24 EST 2004


   I agree intrinsically with your reasoning, however, at the federal
   level there are things called lobbies which are working to limit what
   you can and can't do, and that includes what sort of engine you can
   use. I also own and operate 2 strokes, think they're far superior to 4
   strokes in terms of simplicity and power (opinion), but the fact
   remains....
   We all live and operate on a variety of waters, and here the Laguna
   Madre, is a large (hundreds of square miles), shallow and
   extraordinarily sensitive body of water, perfect for environmentalists
   to prove their point. And the four stroke is their holy grail.Yes, it
   would make more sense to simply designate where a certain engine type
   might be required, but sadly, and according to most industry
   individuals that I know, such will probably not be the case.
   Although, as I mentioned I am a marine biologist, I am not a radical
   environmentalist by any means, and strive to see the common sense in
   things (I think most sailors do). After more than 20 years in this
   bidness, it just seems that the handwriting is on the wall.
   BTW, i don't throw my money away....good rum(flor de cana) is
   expensive ....
   Cheers,
   jwhite
   At 07:40 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:

     Jim
     It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet standards; how
     can you say they will become a thing of the past?  I
     don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has brought
     one.  Their heavy and most folks can work on them
     themselfs.  When you are out on the water & your motor
     goes out; being able to work on it yourself is more
     important than polluting the air and/or water.
     Besides, it is a well know fact that boat motors are
     not the big factor that pollute water.  That like
     saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
     people.  Everyone know that being FAT is the #1 health
     problem.  2 stroke will not be done away with except
     on small bodies of water (that if the facts were known
     are poluted by things other that oil)  & Calaforia
     (where all the crazy enviromentists live).  The
     reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are that they
     get all the repair business.  Why fall into that game.
      If you want to throw away your money; give it to me;
     I'll make good use of it and buy some Bourbon:-)
     Steve
     --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
     >
     >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no only
     > in sailors circles,
     >    but motorboat circles and generates spirited and
     > lively debate- it's
     >    akin to arguing religion or politics. As a former
     > mechanic turned
     >    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with
     > outboards, and repair
     >    shops at our facility each day. We probably log
     > more water time than
     >    the average individual (I would guess). Here are
     > some of the things
     >    that I have become aware of over the past several
     > years:
     >    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a
     > thing of the past.
     >    Pressure at the federal level to reduce emissions
     > in the water, as
     >    well as the air will cause the death of the
     > 2-stroke. Common sense
     >    then tells us that it will become increasingly
     > difficult to obtain
     >    parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes
     > all engines pollute,
     >    and modern two strokes pollute much less than
     > older ones. There are
     >    real fears out there like folks who mix their oil
     > in the field (i.e.
     >    in the parking lot or out on the water, and spill
     > directly, or older 2
     >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by human
     > addition of the oil,
     >    running around rich and smokey ("smoke
     > pots").....these are all well
     >    founded fears that the regulators & and
     > environmentalists (especially)
     >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
     >    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently heavier
     > than two strokes to a
     >    certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or
     > so), at which time the
     >    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great
     > deal of difference to
     >    the small engine/small boat owner, especially
     > ones like
     >    us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the
     > weight of those smaller
     >    engines though, and the gap is closing there.
     >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation have
     > a higher low end
     >    torque which can be useful if you're powering a
     > boat that needs to
     >    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually doesn't
     > apply to sailcraft.
     >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing that
     > gap also.
     >    4. According to our shops, four stroke engines
     > have fewer problems,
     >    and see far less down time and many of our former
     > two stroke engine
     >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
     > especially sailboat owners are
     >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a
     > major selling point.
     >    However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a
     > more costly repair
     >    than a comparable two stroke, but again, with
     > design changes in both
     >    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
     >    In any event, our facility has now plunged into
     > the 4 stroke world
     >    along with the tide of others. BTW I have a 2002
     > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
     >    auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for my
     > newly acquired
     >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
     >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
     > diatribe/dissertation...
     >    JDWHITE
     >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
     >
     >      Wally
     >      I can't remember where I read the article about
     > 2
     >      strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
     >      probably.  But I would think you are right.  If
     > the
     >      smaller motors don't already; its just a matter
     > of
     >      time.
     >      Steve
     >      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
     >      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes
     > were only
     >      > coming out in the
     >      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think
     > that the
     >      > technolgy will trickly
     >      > down to the smaller motors as well but you
     > never
     >      > know.....
     >      >
     >      > Wally
     >      >
     >      >
     >      > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
     >      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes 22
     > mail
     >      > list
     >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
     >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
     >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
     >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4
     > cycle
     >      > smoke
     >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
     >      > >
     >      > >Steve,
     >      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle engines
     > are not
     >      > smoke pots.  They
     >      > >more than comply with the current
     > environmental
     >      > standards and they will
     >      > >comply with the new impending standards.
     >      > >     As for using oil, all gas motors use
     > oil and some
     >      > of that
     >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The issue is
     > how
     >      > much of that oil and gas
     >      > >is wasted directly into the environment.
     > The old 2
     >      > cycle engines did
     >      > >not care.  However, the EPA standards got
     > the
     >      > manufacturers attention
     >      > >and the new engines do not statistically
     > pollute
     >      > the environment more
     >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
     > pollutants.
     >      > All gas engines
     >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree.  When
     > that
     >      > degree is evaluated
     >      > >statistically is the difference significant?
     >      > Simply put, will the
     >      > >impact difference between the two types of
     > motors
     >      > on the environment
     >      > >really matter?  A few years ago the answer
     > was yes,
     >      > however, with design
     >      > >changes the effects are no longer
     > statistically
     >      > significant.  They both
     >      > >pollute.
     >      > >
     >      > >                                       Ed K
     >      > >-----Original Message-----
     >      > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
     >      >
     > >[[1][1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
     >      > Behalf Of Steve
     >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
     >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
     >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
     > cycle
     >      > >
     >      > >I thought the reason they came out with 4
     > strocks
     >      > were
     >      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know,
     > you
     >      > have
     >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
     > non-smoking
     >      > >part.  You can now have a smoking part of a
     > lake; &
     >      > a
     >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks
     > that go
     >      > 4
     >      > >stoke; that means the more folks that can go
     > 2
     >      > stoke.
     >      > >And the enviroment only get poluted the same
     > amount
     >      > >that we have always done for years:-)Beside,
     > we
     >      > need a
     >      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps here are
     > in the
     >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to polute
     > quite a
     >      > bit
     >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so are
     > winter
     >      > stay
     >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
     >      > Michael:-)
     >      > >Steve
     >      > >
     >      > >
     >      > >--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
     > wrote:
     >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the
     > sessions
     >      > version
     >      > > > of the question, "So how much harm are
     > you
     >      > willing
     >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
     >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
     > miscarry,
     >      > children
     >      > > > born with birth defects, men going
     > impememnt,
     >      > etc..
     >      > > > so you can selflessy use
     >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife
     > to day
     >      > :-)
     >      > > >
     >      > > > MJM
     >      > > >
     >      > > >
     >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
     >      > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
     >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
     >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
     >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12
     > AM
     >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4
     > cycle
     >      > > >
     >      > > >
     >      > > > > Rummy,
     >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know better than
     > question
     >      > the
     >      > > > technical
     >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
     > eloquent
     >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
     >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.
     > Roger
     >      > forgets
     >      > > > that not everybody has
     >      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is the old
     >      > problem of
     >      > > > being able to see a
     >      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
     >      > > > > Ed K
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
     >      > > > > From:
     > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
     >      > > > >
     > [[2][2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
     >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
     >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52
     > AM
     >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
     >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
     > Water
     >      > Pump
     >      > > > Replacement
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > Jay,
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
     >      > impellors on
     >      > > > small outboards is
     >      > > > > that
     >      > > > > they are made from some sort of rubber.
     >  It's
     >      > > > really a rather clever
     >      > > > > design.
     >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber
     > vanes
     >      > on
     >      > > > the impellor touch the
     >      > > > > water
     >      > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump
     > positive
     >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
     >      > > > > At
     >      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect
     > out of
     >      > the
     >      > > > way & ride on top of a
     >      > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted
     > surface
     >      > of
     >      > > > the water pump housing.
     >      > > > > At
     >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't experience
     > any
     >      > wear
     >      > > > because they are not
     >      > > > > touching the pump housing.  This design
     > makes
     >      > the
     >      > > > water pump capable of
     >      > > > > automatically switching from positive
     >      > displacement
     >      > > > mode to centrifugal
     >      > > > > mode
     >      > > > > for delivering the high volume of
     > cooling
     >      > water
     >      > > > required by high speed
     >      > > > > operation.
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if the water
     > pump
     >      > ever
     >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
     >      > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication &
     > cooling
     >      > > > provided by the water,
     >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
     > quickly, like
     >      > in a
     >      > > > few seconds!
     >      > > > > Exposure to
     >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the
     > oil film
     >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
     >      > > > > outboards) will gradually break down
     > the
     >      > rubber
     >      > > > polymer molecules in the
     >      > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement,
     > cracking,
     >      > and
     >      > > > failure.  This is
     >      > > > > probably
     >      > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
     >      > mechanism.
     >      > > > Pump impellors should
     >      > > > > be
     >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to
     > this
     >      > cause
     >      > > > alone.  There is also
     >      > > > > another common failure mechanism
     > related to
     >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
     >      > > > > is
     >      > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire
     > cooling
     >      > > > system drains down.  This
     >      > > > > is
     >      > > > > why the water pump needs to be
     > self-priming at
     >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
     >      > > > > water &
     >      > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain
     > amount
     >      > of
     >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
     >      > > > > in
     >      > > > > it.  When the cooling system drains
     > down, a
     >      > small
     >      > > > amount of water is
     >      > > > > left
     >      > > > > trapped in between the ends of the
     > vanes on
     >      > the
     >      > > > water pump impellor &
     >      > > > > the
     >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When this water
     >      > eventually
     >      > > > evaporates in
     >      > > > > storage,
     >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by
     > salt
     >      > crystals
     >      > > > to the pump housing.
     >      > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond is,
     > the
     >      > rubber
     >      > > > impellor can be
     >      > > > > damaged
     >      > > > > the next time the engine is started
     > when the
     >      > vanes
     >      > > > are ripped free of
     >      > > > > the
     >      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition, for the
     > 1st few
     >      > > > minutes of operation,
     >      > > > > before
     >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
     >      > relatively
     >      > > > rough surface on the
     >      > > > > water pump housing that the rubber
     > vanes have
     >      > to
     >      > > > run over on every
     >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can be
     > corrosion
     >      > > > issues with moist salt
     >      > > > > crystals
     >      > > > > in long-term contact with the aluminum
     > pump
     >      > > > housing in this scenario.
     >      > > > > In
     >      > > > > salt water, it's considered good
     > practice to
     >      > fresh
     >      > > > water flush the
     >      > > > > cooling
     >      > > > > system after every use & certainly
     > before
     >      > > > long-term storage.  After
     >      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to
     > fresh
     >      > water
     >      > > > flush the cooling
     >      > > > > system
     >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of my
     > outboard
     >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
     >      > > > > flush
     >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV
     > "red
     >      > pop")
     >      > > > thru the cooling
     >      > > > > systems
     >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene glycol will
     >      > prevent
     >      > > > the build-up of salt
     >      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the
     > water
     >      > pump
     >      > > > housing.  During the
     >      > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I
     > gently
     >      > pull
     >      > > > the outboard thru with
     >      > > > > the
     >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to break
     > the
     >      > water
     >      > > > pump impellor free &
     >      > > > > give
     >      > > > > the engine several minutes of low speed
     >      > warm-up.
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > The result, the only water pump I've
     > ever had
     >      > fail
     >      > > > on any of my
     >      > > > > outboards in
     >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time when
     > my
     >      > younger
     >      > > > son Gary ran the
     >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
     > outboard up on
     >      > the
     >      > > > beach with the engine
     >      > > > > at
     >      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump impellor
     > was
     >      > burnt
     >      > > > to a crisp!
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > Good luck!
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
     >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
     >      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
     >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
     >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
     >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
     >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
     >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25
     > AM
     >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
     > Water
     >      > Pump
     >      > > > Replacement
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > >
     >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work,
     > maybe
     >      > the
     >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
     >      > > > > but
     >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only
     > putting
     >      > 25-50
     >      > > > hours on
     >      > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you
     > do have
     >      > to
     >      > > > watch is salt on the
     >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean
     > the pee
     >      > tub
     >      > > > yearly), is
     >      > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine
     > that is
     >      > not
     >      > > > rust proof, time will
     >      > > > > get
     >      > > > > it and they need to be replace every
     > two
     >      > years,
     >      > > > luckily it
     >      > > > > > is also a simple job that you can do
     >      > yourself.
     >      > > > > >
     >      > > > > > MJM
     >      > > > > >
     >      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
     >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
     > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
     >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
     >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
     >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004
     > 11:25 AM
     >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9
     > Water
     >      > Pump
     >      > > > Replacement
     >      > > > > >
     >      > > > > >
     >      > > > > > > Folks,
     >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
     > recommends
     >      > > > replacing the water pump
     >      > > > > assembly
     >      > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with
     > this
     >      > the
     >      > > > first year in service.
     >      > > > > I'm
     >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
     > occasionally
     >      > flush
     >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
     >      > > > > > > month), and end of season run it in
     > a
     >      > barrel
     >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
     >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits,
     > etc.).
     >      > > > > > >
     >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
     >      > proceeding
     >      > > > with this replacement
     >      > > > > or
     >      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
     >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
     >      > > > > > >
     >      > > > > > >
     >      > > >
     >      >
     > __________________________________________________
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     >    1. [3]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
     >    2. [4]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
     >    3. [5]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >    4. [6]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >    5. [7]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >    6. [8]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >    7. [9]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >    8. [10]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
     >    9. [11]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >   10. [12]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >   11. [13]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
     >   12. [14]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     >   13. [15]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
     >   14. [16]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
     > __________________________________________________
     > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
     [17]www.rhodes22.org/list
     __________________________________
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     [18]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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     Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? [19]www.rhodes22.org/list

References

   1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
   2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
   3. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
   4. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
   5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
   6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
   7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
   8. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
   9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  10. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
  11. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  13. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
  14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  15. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
  16. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  17. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
  18. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
  19. http://www.rhodes22.org/list


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