[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam

Steve rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 13 07:57:22 EST 2004


Excellent Jim, Rum is good:-)
Steve

--- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
> 
>    I agree intrinsically with your reasoning,
> however, at the federal
>    level there are things called lobbies which are
> working to limit what
>    you can and can't do, and that includes what sort
> of engine you can
>    use. I also own and operate 2 strokes, think
> they're far superior to 4
>    strokes in terms of simplicity and power
> (opinion), but the fact
>    remains....
>    We all live and operate on a variety of waters,
> and here the Laguna
>    Madre, is a large (hundreds of square miles),
> shallow and
>    extraordinarily sensitive body of water, perfect
> for environmentalists
>    to prove their point. And the four stroke is
> their holy grail.Yes, it
>    would make more sense to simply designate where a
> certain engine type
>    might be required, but sadly, and according to
> most industry
>    individuals that I know, such will probably not
> be the case.
>    Although, as I mentioned I am a marine biologist,
> I am not a radical
>    environmentalist by any means, and strive to see
> the common sense in
>    things (I think most sailors do). After more than
> 20 years in this
>    bidness, it just seems that the handwriting is on
> the wall.
>    BTW, i don't throw my money away....good rum(flor
> de cana) is
>    expensive ....
>    Cheers,
>    jwhite
>    At 07:40 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> 
>      Jim
>      It manufactors make the 2 stroke meet
> standards; how
>      can you say they will become a thing of the
> past?  I
>      don't know anyone that like a 4 stroke who has
> brought
>      one.  Their heavy and most folks can work on
> them
>      themselfs.  When you are out on the water &
> your motor
>      goes out; being able to work on it yourself is
> more
>      important than polluting the air and/or water.
>      Besides, it is a well know fact that boat
> motors are
>      not the big factor that pollute water.  That
> like
>      saying that smoking is the #1 health problem of
>      people.  Everyone know that being FAT is the #1
> health
>      problem.  2 stroke will not be done away with
> except
>      on small bodies of water (that if the facts
> were known
>      are poluted by things other that oil)  &
> Calaforia
>      (where all the crazy enviromentists live).  The
>      reasons most manufactors push 4 strokes are
> that they
>      get all the repair business.  Why fall into
> that game.
>       If you want to throw away your money; give it
> to me;
>      I'll make good use of it and buy some
> Bourbon:-)
>      Steve
>      --- Jim White <jdwhite at panam.edu> wrote:
>      >
>      >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that
> no only
>      > in sailors circles,
>      >    but motorboat circles and generates
> spirited and
>      > lively debate- it's
>      >    akin to arguing religion or politics. As a
> former
>      > mechanic turned
>      >    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand
> with
>      > outboards, and repair
>      >    shops at our facility each day. We
> probably log
>      > more water time than
>      >    the average individual (I would guess).
> Here are
>      > some of the things
>      >    that I have become aware of over the past
> several
>      > years:
>      >    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon
> be a
>      > thing of the past.
>      >    Pressure at the federal level to reduce
> emissions
>      > in the water, as
>      >    well as the air will cause the death of
> the
>      > 2-stroke. Common sense
>      >    then tells us that it will become
> increasingly
>      > difficult to obtain
>      >    parts for those out of manufacture
> engines. Yes
>      > all engines pollute,
>      >    and modern two strokes pollute much less
> than
>      > older ones. There are
>      >    real fears out there like folks who mix
> their oil
>      > in the field (i.e.
>      >    in the parking lot or out on the water,
> and spill
>      > directly, or older 2
>      >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by
> human
>      > addition of the oil,
>      >    running around rich and smokey ("smoke
>      > pots").....these are all well
>      >    founded fears that the regulators & and
>      > environmentalists (especially)
>      >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2
> stroke
>      >    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently
> heavier
>      > than two strokes to a
>      >    certain point in horsepower rating (about
> 90 or
>      > so), at which time the
>      >    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a
> great
>      > deal of difference to
>      >    the small engine/small boat owner,
> especially
>      > ones like
>      >    us....Manufacturers are working on cutting
> the
>      > weight of those smaller
>      >    engines though, and the gap is closing
> there.
>      >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of
> operation have
>      > a higher low end
>      >    torque which can be useful if you're
> powering a
>      > boat that needs to
>      >    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually
> doesn't
>      > apply to sailcraft.
>      >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly
> closing that
>      > gap also.
>      >    4. According to our shops, four stroke
> engines
>      > have fewer problems,
>      >    and see far less down time and many of our
> former
>      > two stroke engine
>      >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and
>      > especially sailboat owners are
>      >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact
> as a
>      > major selling point.
>      >    However, when a four stroke breaks, it can
> be a
>      > more costly repair
>      >    than a comparable two stroke, but again,
> with
>      > design changes in both
>      >    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
>      >    In any event, our facility has now plunged
> into
>      > the 4 stroke world
>      >    along with the tide of others. BTW I have
> a 2002
>      > 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
>      >    auxiliary (notice the previous word) power
> for my
>      > newly acquired
>      >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
>      >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy
>      > diatribe/dissertation...
>      >    JDWHITE
>      >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>      >
>      >      Wally
>      >      I can't remember where I read the
> article about
>      > 2
>      >      strokes meeting standards; one of my
> sail mag
>      >      probably.  But I would think you are
> right.  If
>      > the
>      >      smaller motors don't already; its just a
> matter
>      > of
>      >      time.
>      >      Steve
>      >      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>      >      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2
> strokes
>      > were only
>      >      > coming out in the
>      >      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to
> think
>      > that the
>      >      > technolgy will trickly
>      >      > down to the smaller motors as well but
> you
>      > never
>      >      > know.....
>      >      >
>      >      > Wally
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >      > >From: "Kroposki"
> <kroposki at innova.net>
>      >      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The
> Rhodes 22
>      > mail
>      >      > list
>      >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>      >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2
> cycle vs 4
>      > cycle
>      >      > smoke
>      >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
>      >      > >
>      >      > >Steve,
>      >      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle
> engines
>      > are not
>      >      > smoke pots.  They
>      >      > >more than comply with the current
>      > environmental
>      >      > standards and they will
>      >      > >comply with the new impending
> standards.
>      >      > >     As for using oil, all gas motors
> use
>      > oil and some
>      >      > of that
>      >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The
> issue is
>      > how
>      >      > much of that oil and gas
>      >      > >is wasted directly into the
> environment.
>      > The old 2
>      >      > cycle engines did
>      >      > >not care.  However, the EPA standards
> got
>      > the
>      >      > manufacturers attention
>      >      > >and the new engines do not
> statistically
>      > pollute
>      >      > the environment more
>      >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew
>      > pollutants.
>      >      > All gas engines
>      >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree. 
> When
>      > that
>      >      > degree is evaluated
>      >      > >statistically is the difference
> significant?
>      >      > Simply put, will the
>      >      > >impact difference between the two
> types of
>      > motors
>      >      > on the environment
>      >      > >really matter?  A few years ago the
> answer
>      > was yes,
>      >      > however, with design
>      >      > >changes the effects are no longer
>      > statistically
>      >      > significant.  They both
>      >      > >pollute.
>      >      > >
>      >      > >                                     
>  Ed K
>      >      > >-----Original Message-----
>      >      > >From:
> rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      >      >
>      >
> >[[1][1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On
>      >      > Behalf Of Steve
>      >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004
> 9:01 AM
>      >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>      >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> vs 4
>      > cycle
>      >      > >
>      >      > >I thought the reason they came out
> with 4
>      > strocks
>      >      > were
>      >      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-)
> You know,
>      > you
>      >      > have
>      >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a
>      > non-smoking
>      >      > >part.  You can now have a smoking
> part of a
>      > lake; &
>      >      > a
>      >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more
> folks
>      > that go
>      >      > 4
>      >      > >stoke; that means the more folks that
> can go
>      > 2
>      >      > stoke.
>      >      > >And the enviroment only get poluted
> the same
>      > amount
>      >      > >that we have always done for
> years:-)Beside,
>      > we
>      >      > need a
>      >      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps
> here are
>      > in the
>      >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to
> polute
>      > quite a
>      >      > bit
>      >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so
> are
>      > winter
>      >      > stay
>      >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you
> thinking,
>      >      > Michael:-)
>      >      > >Steve
>      >      > >
>      >      > >
>      >      > >--- Michael Meltzer
> <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
>      > wrote:
>      >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for
> the
>      > sessions
>      >      > version
>      >      > > > of the question, "So how much harm
> are
>      > you
>      >      > willing
>      >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
>      >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman
>      > miscarry,
>      >      > children
>      >      > > > born with birth defects, men going
>      > impememnt,
>      >      > etc..
>      >      > > > so you can selflessy use
>      >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat
> your wife
>      > to day
>      >      > :-)
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > MJM
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      >      > > > From: "Kroposki"
> <kroposki at innova.net>
>      >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>      >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
> 9:12
>      > AM
>      >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle
> vs 4
>      > cycle
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > > > Rummy,
>      >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know better
> than
>      > question
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > technical
>      >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's
>      > eloquent
>      >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
>      >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by
> myself.
>      > Roger
>      >      > forgets
>      >      > > > that not everybody has
>      >      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is
> the old
>      >      > problem of
>      >      > > > being able to see a
>      >      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
>      >      > > > > Ed K
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
>      >      > > > > From:
>      > rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      >      > > > >
>      >
> [[2][2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>      >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
>      >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> 2004 7:52
>      > AM
>      >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>      >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> Yamaha 9.9
>      > Water
>      >      > Pump
>      >      > > > Replacement
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > Jay,
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > The usual problem with the water
> pump
>      >      > impellors on
>      >      > > > small outboards is
>      >      > > > > that
>      >      > > > > they are made from some sort of
> rubber.
>      >  It's
>      >      > > > really a rather clever
>      >      > > > > design.
>      >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the
> rubber
>      > vanes
>      >      > on
>      >      > > > the impellor touch the
>      >      > > > > water
>      >      > > > > pump housing, thus making the
> pump
>      > positive
>      >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
>      >      > > > > At
>      >      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes
> deflect
>      > out of
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > way & ride on top of a
>      >      > > > > boundary layer of water on the
> wetted
>      > surface
>      >      > of
>      >      > > > the water pump housing.
>      >      > > > > At
>      >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't
> experience
>      > any
>      >      > wear
>      >      > > > because they are not
>      >      > > > > touching the pump housing.  This
> design
>      > makes
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > water pump capable of
>      >      > > > > automatically switching from
> positive
>      >      > displacement
>      >      > > > mode to centrifugal
>      >      > > > > mode
>      >      > > > > for delivering the high volume
> of
>      > cooling
>      >      > water
>      >      > > > required by high speed
>      >      > > > > operation.
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if
> the water
>      > pump
>      >      > ever
>      >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
>      >      > > > > impellor will lose the
> lubrication &
>      > cooling
>      >      > > > provided by the water,
>      >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very
>      > quickly, like
>      >      > in a
>      >      > > > few seconds!
>      >      > > > > Exposure to
>      >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water
> (like the
>      > oil film
>      >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
>      >      > > > > outboards) will gradually break
> down
>      > the
>      >      > rubber
>      >      > > > polymer molecules in the
>      >      > > > > impellor; leading to
> embrittlement,
>      > cracking,
>      >      > and
>      >      > > > failure.  This is
>      >      > > > > probably
>      >      > > > > the single biggest long-term
> failure
>      >      > mechanism.
>      >      > > > Pump impellors should
>      >      > > > > be
>      >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years
> due to
>      > this
>      >      > cause
>      >      > > > alone.  There is also
>      >      > > > > another common failure mechanism
>      > related to
>      >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
>      >      > > > > is
>      >      > > > > lifted free of the water, the
> entire
>      > cooling
>      >      > > > system drains down.  This
>      >      > > > > is
>      >      > > > > why the water pump needs to be
>      > self-priming at
>      >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
>      >      > > > > water &
>      >      > > > > especially ocean water, has a
> certain
>      > amount
>      >      > of
>      >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
>      >      > > > > in
>      >      > > > > it.  When the cooling system
> drains
>      > down, a
>      >      > small
>      >      > > > amount of water is
>      >      > > > > left
>      >      > > > > trapped in between the ends of
> the
>      > vanes on
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > water pump impellor &
>      >      > > > > the
>      >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When
> this water
>      >      > eventually
>      >      > > > evaporates in
>      >      > > > > storage,
>      >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded
> by
>      > salt
>      >      > crystals
>      >      > > > to the pump housing.
>      >      > > > > Depending upon how strong this
> bond is,
>      > the
>      >      > rubber
>      >      > > > impellor can be
>      >      > > > > damaged
>      >      > > > > the next time the engine is
> started
>      > when the
>      >      > vanes
>      >      > > > are ripped free of
>      >      > > > > the
>      >      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition, for
> the
>      > 1st few
>      >      > > > minutes of operation,
>      >      > > > > before
>      >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they
> form a
>      >      > relatively
>      >      > > > rough surface on the
>      >      > > > > water pump housing that the
> rubber
>      > vanes have
>      >      > to
>      >      > > > run over on every
>      >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can
> be
>      > corrosion
>      >      > > > issues with moist salt
>      >      > > > > crystals
>      >      > > > > in long-term contact with the
> aluminum
>      > pump
>      >      > > > housing in this scenario.
>      >      > > > > In
>      >      > > > > salt water, it's considered good
>      > practice to
>      >      > fresh
>      >      > > > water flush the
>      >      > > > > cooling
>      >      > > > > system after every use &
> certainly
>      > before
>      >      > > > long-term storage.  After
>      >      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't
> hurt to
>      > fresh
>      >      > water
>      >      > > > flush the cooling
>      >      > > > > system
>      >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of
> my
>      > outboard
>      >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
>      >      > > > > flush
>      >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable
> antifreeze (RV
>      > "red
>      >      > pop")
>      >      > > > thru the cooling
>      >      > > > > systems
>      >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene
> glycol will
>      >      > prevent
>      >      > > > the build-up of salt
>      >      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes
> and the
>      > water
>      >      > pump
>      >      > > > housing.  During the
>      >      > > > > boating season, on every
> start-up, I
>      > gently
>      >      > pull
>      >      > > > the outboard thru with
>      >      > > > > the
>      >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it
> to break
>      > the
>      >      > water
>      >      > > > pump impellor free &
>      >      > > > > give
>      >      > > > > the engine several minutes of
> low speed
>      >      > warm-up.
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > The result, the only water pump
> I've
>      > ever had
>      >      > fail
>      >      > > > on any of my
>      >      > > > > outboards in
>      >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the
> time when
>      > my
>      >      > younger
>      >      > > > son Gary ran the
>      >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp
>      > outboard up on
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > beach with the engine
>      >      > > > > at
>      >      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump
> impellor
>      > was
>      >      > burnt
>      >      > > > to a crisp!
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > Good luck!
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
>      >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>      >      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
>      >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
>      >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>      >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11,
> 2004 2:25
>      > AM
>      >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> Yamaha 9.9
>      > Water
>      >      > Pump
>      >      > > > Replacement
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make
> work,
>      > maybe
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
>      >      > > > > but
>      >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are
> only
>      > putting
>      >      > 25-50
>      >      > > > hours on
>      >      > > > > > the motor every year, one
> thing you
>      > do have
>      >      > to
>      >      > > > watch is salt on the
>      >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages,
> clean
>      > the pee
>      >      > tub
>      >      > > > yearly), is
>      >      > > > > > one of the few parts on the
> engine
>      > that is
>      >      > not
>      >      > > > rust proof, time will
>      >      > > > > get
>      >      > > > > it and they need to be replace
> every
>      > two
>      >      > years,
>      >      > > > luckily it
>      >      > > > > > is also a simple job that you
> can do
>      >      > yourself.
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > > > MJM
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland"
>      > <a.jayf at verizon.net>
>      >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>      >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10,
> 2004
>      > 11:25 AM
>      >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list]
> Yamaha 9.9
>      > Water
>      >      > Pump
>      >      > > > Replacement
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > > > > Folks,
>      >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam
>      > recommends
>      >      > > > replacing the water pump
>      >      > > > > assembly
>      >      > > > > > > every year. The motor is
> 2001 with
>      > this
>      >      > the
>      >      > > > first year in service.
>      >      > > > > I'm
>      >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months,
>      > occasionally
>      >      > flush
>      >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
>      >      > > > > > > month), and end of season
> run it in
>      > a
>      >      > barrel
>      >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
>      >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off
> deposits,
>      > etc.).
>      >      > > > > > >
>      >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best
> suggestions on
>      >      > proceeding
>      >      > > > with this replacement
>      >      > > > > or
>      >      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
>      >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
>      >      > > > > > >
>      >      > > > > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      > > > > > > Use
> Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
>      > Help?
>      >      > > > [3]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      > > > > > >
>      >      > > > > > >
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      > > > > > Use
> Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>      >      > > > [4]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> Help?
>      >      > > > [5]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      > > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> Help?
>      >      > > > [6]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      > > >
>      >      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org,
> Help?
>      >      > >[7]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      > >
>      >      > >
>      >      > >__________________________________
>      >      > >Do you Yahoo!?
>      >      > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast
> by
>      > filing
>      >      > online.
>      >      > >[8]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>      >      >
>      >
> >__________________________________________________
>      >      > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>      >      > [9]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      > >
>      >      > >
>      >      >
>      >
> >__________________________________________________
>      >      > >Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>      >      > [10]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >
>      >
>     
>
_________________________________________________________________
>      >      > Keep up with high-tech trends here at
> "Hook'd
>      > on
>      >      > Technology."
>      >      >
>      >
> [11]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
>      >      >
>      >      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>      >      [12]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >      __________________________________
>      >      Do you Yahoo!?
>      >      Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by
> filing
>      > online.
>      >      [13]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>      >
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      >      Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>      > [14]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >
>      > References
>      >
>      >    1.
> [3]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      >    2.
> [4]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      >    3. [5]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >    4. [6]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >    5. [7]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >    6. [8]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >    7. [9]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >    8. [10]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>      >    9. [11]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >   10. [12]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >   11.
> [13]http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
>      >   12. [14]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >   13. [15]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>      >   14. [16]http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>      >
> __________________________________________________
>      > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>      [17]www.rhodes22.org/list
>      __________________________________
>      Do you Yahoo!?
>      Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> online.
>      [18]http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>     
> __________________________________________________
>      Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> [19]www.rhodes22.org/list
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>    2. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>    3. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>    4. mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>    5. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>    6. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>    7. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>    8. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>    9. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>   10. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>   11. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>   12. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>   13. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
>   14. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>   15. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>   16. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>   17. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>   18. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>   19. http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
www.rhodes22.org/list


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


More information about the Rhodes22-list mailing list