[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam

Jim White jdwhite at panam.edu
Fri Feb 13 14:07:31 EST 2004


Thanks...
Feel like I'm makin' a new set of friends here....
jwhite
At 01:49 PM 02/13/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>Jim,
>
>Thanks for the information, and for the perspective that you add to the
>debate.  And congratulations on the new Rhodes.
>
>If I remember correctly, you're on the Texas Gulf Coast, right?  It seems
>like your new boat will be a really good one for sliding over sandbars and
>through the shallows in that direction.  I'm in Baton Rouge and sail in Lake
>Ponchatrain, LA.  Let me know if you're ever this way and want to drink a
>rum and go sailing.
>
>Ben
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim White [mailto:jdwhite at panam.edu]
>Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 09:01
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
>
>
>    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no only in sailors circles,
>    but motorboat circles and generates spirited and lively debate- it's
>    akin to arguing religion or politics. As a former mechanic turned
>    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with outboards, and repair
>    shops at our facility each day. We probably log more water time than
>    the average individual (I would guess). Here are some of the things
>    that I have become aware of over the past several years:
>    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a thing of the past.
>    Pressure at the federal level to reduce emissions in the water, as
>    well as the air will cause the death of the 2-stroke. Common sense
>    then tells us that it will become increasingly difficult to obtain
>    parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes all engines pollute,
>    and modern two strokes pollute much less than older ones. There are
>    real fears out there like folks who mix their oil in the field (i.e.
>    in the parking lot or out on the water, and spill directly, or older 2
>    strokes that mix into the gas tank by human addition of the oil,
>    running around rich and smokey ("smoke pots").....these are all well
>    founded fears that the regulators & and environmentalists (especially)
>    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
>    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently heavier than two strokes to a
>    certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or so), at which time the
>    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great deal of difference to
>    the small engine/small boat owner, especially ones like
>    us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the weight of those smaller
>    engines though, and the gap is closing there.
>    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation have a higher low end
>    torque which can be useful if you're powering a boat that needs to
>    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually doesn't apply to sailcraft.
>    However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing that gap also.
>    4. According to our shops, four stroke engines have fewer problems,
>    and see far less down time and many of our former two stroke engine
>    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and especially sailboat owners are
>    now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a major selling point.
>    However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a more costly repair
>    than a comparable two stroke, but again, with design changes in both
>    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
>    In any event, our facility has now plunged into the 4 stroke world
>    along with the tide of others. BTW I have a 2002 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
>    auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for my newly acquired
>    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
>    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy diatribe/dissertation...
>    JDWHITE
>    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>
>      Wally
>      I can't remember where I read the article about 2
>      strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
>      probably.  But I would think you are right.  If the
>      smaller motors don't already; its just a matter of
>      time.
>      Steve
>      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes were only
>      > coming out in the
>      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think that the
>      > technolgy will trickly
>      > down to the smaller motors as well but you never
>      > know.....
>      >
>      > Wally
>      >
>      >
>      > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
>      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes 22 mail
>      > list
>      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
>      > smoke
>      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
>      > >
>      > >Steve,
>      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle engines are not
>      > smoke pots.  They
>      > >more than comply with the current environmental
>      > standards and they will
>      > >comply with the new impending standards.
>      > >     As for using oil, all gas motors use oil and some
>      > of that
>      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The issue is how
>      > much of that oil and gas
>      > >is wasted directly into the environment.  The old 2
>      > cycle engines did
>      > >not care.  However, the EPA standards got the
>      > manufacturers attention
>      > >and the new engines do not statistically pollute
>      > the environment more
>      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew pollutants.
>      > All gas engines
>      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree.  When that
>      > degree is evaluated
>      > >statistically is the difference significant?
>      > Simply put, will the
>      > >impact difference between the two types of motors
>      > on the environment
>      > >really matter?  A few years ago the answer was yes,
>      > however, with design
>      > >changes the effects are no longer statistically
>      > significant.  They both
>      > >pollute.
>      > >
>      > >                                       Ed K
>      > >-----Original Message-----
>      > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>      > Behalf Of Steve
>      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
>      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
>      > >
>      > >I thought the reason they came out with 4 strocks
>      > were
>      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know, you
>      > have
>      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a non-smoking
>      > >part.  You can now have a smoking part of a lake; &
>      > a
>      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks that go
>      > 4
>      > >stoke; that means the more folks that can go 2
>      > stoke.
>      > >And the enviroment only get poluted the same amount
>      > >that we have always done for years:-)Beside, we
>      > need a
>      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps here are in the
>      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to polute quite a
>      > bit
>      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so are winter
>      > stay
>      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
>      > Michael:-)
>      > >Steve
>      > >
>      > >
>      > >--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
>      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the sessions
>      > version
>      > > > of the question, "So how much harm are you
>      > willing
>      > > > to cause, like: frogs
>      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman miscarry,
>      > children
>      > > > born with birth defects, men going impememnt,
>      > etc..
>      > > > so you can selflessy use
>      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife to day
>      > :-)
>      > > >
>      > > > MJM
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
>      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
>      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12 AM
>      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
>      > > >
>      > > >
>      > > > > Rummy,
>      > > > > Here we go again.  I know better than question
>      > the
>      > > > technical
>      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's eloquent
>      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
>      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.  Roger
>      > forgets
>      > > > that not everybody has
>      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is the old
>      > problem of
>      > > > being able to see a
>      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
>      > > > > Ed K
>      > > > >
>      > > > > -----Original Message-----
>      > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>      > > > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
>      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
>      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52 AM
>      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
>      > Pump
>      > > > Replacement
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Jay,
>      > > > >
>      > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
>      > impellors on
>      > > > small outboards is
>      > > > > that
>      > > > > they are made from some sort of rubber.  It's
>      > > > really a rather clever
>      > > > > design.
>      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber vanes
>      > on
>      > > > the impellor touch the
>      > > > > water
>      > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump positive
>      > > > displacement & self-priming.
>      > > > > At
>      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect out of
>      > the
>      > > > way & ride on top of a
>      > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted surface
>      > of
>      > > > the water pump housing.
>      > > > > At
>      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't experience any
>      > wear
>      > > > because they are not
>      > > > > touching the pump housing.  This design makes
>      > the
>      > > > water pump capable of
>      > > > > automatically switching from positive
>      > displacement
>      > > > mode to centrifugal
>      > > > > mode
>      > > > > for delivering the high volume of cooling
>      > water
>      > > > required by high speed
>      > > > > operation.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if the water pump
>      > ever
>      > > > runs dry, the rubber
>      > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication & cooling
>      > > > provided by the water,
>      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very quickly, like
>      > in a
>      > > > few seconds!
>      > > > > Exposure to
>      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the oil film
>      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
>      > > > > outboards) will gradually break down the
>      > rubber
>      > > > polymer molecules in the
>      > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement, cracking,
>      > and
>      > > > failure.  This is
>      > > > > probably
>      > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
>      > mechanism.
>      > > > Pump impellors should
>      > > > > be
>      > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to this
>      > cause
>      > > > alone.  There is also
>      > > > > another common failure mechanism related to
>      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
>      > > > > is
>      > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire cooling
>      > > > system drains down.  This
>      > > > > is
>      > > > > why the water pump needs to be self-priming at
>      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
>      > > > > water &
>      > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain amount
>      > of
>      > > > dissolved mineral salts
>      > > > > in
>      > > > > it.  When the cooling system drains down, a
>      > small
>      > > > amount of water is
>      > > > > left
>      > > > > trapped in between the ends of the vanes on
>      > the
>      > > > water pump impellor &
>      > > > > the
>      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When this water
>      > eventually
>      > > > evaporates in
>      > > > > storage,
>      > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by salt
>      > crystals
>      > > > to the pump housing.
>      > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond is, the
>      > rubber
>      > > > impellor can be
>      > > > > damaged
>      > > > > the next time the engine is started when the
>      > vanes
>      > > > are ripped free of
>      > > > > the
>      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition, for the 1st few
>      > > > minutes of operation,
>      > > > > before
>      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
>      > relatively
>      > > > rough surface on the
>      > > > > water pump housing that the rubber vanes have
>      > to
>      > > > run over on every
>      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can be corrosion
>      > > > issues with moist salt
>      > > > > crystals
>      > > > > in long-term contact with the aluminum pump
>      > > > housing in this scenario.
>      > > > > In
>      > > > > salt water, it's considered good practice to
>      > fresh
>      > > > water flush the
>      > > > > cooling
>      > > > > system after every use & certainly before
>      > > > long-term storage.  After
>      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to fresh
>      > water
>      > > > flush the cooling
>      > > > > system
>      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of my outboard
>      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
>      > > > > flush
>      > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV "red
>      > pop")
>      > > > thru the cooling
>      > > > > systems
>      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene glycol will
>      > prevent
>      > > > the build-up of salt
>      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the water
>      > pump
>      > > > housing.  During the
>      > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I gently
>      > pull
>      > > > the outboard thru with
>      > > > > the
>      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to break the
>      > water
>      > > > pump impellor free &
>      > > > > give
>      > > > > the engine several minutes of low speed
>      > warm-up.
>      > > > >
>      > > > > The result, the only water pump I've ever had
>      > fail
>      > > > on any of my
>      > > > > outboards in
>      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time when my
>      > younger
>      > > > son Gary ran the
>      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp outboard up on
>      > the
>      > > > beach with the engine
>      > > > > at
>      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump impellor was
>      > burnt
>      > > > to a crisp!
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Good luck!
>      > > > >
>      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
>      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
>      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
>      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25 AM
>      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
>      > Pump
>      > > > Replacement
>      > > > >
>      > > > >
>      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work, maybe
>      > the
>      > > > impeller very 4 years,
>      > > > > but
>      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only putting
>      > 25-50
>      > > > hours on
>      > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you do have
>      > to
>      > > > watch is salt on the
>      > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean the pee
>      > tub
>      > > > yearly), is
>      > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine that is
>      > not
>      > > > rust proof, time will
>      > > > > get
>      > > > > it and they need to be replace every two
>      > years,
>      > > > luckily it
>      > > > > > is also a simple job that you can do
>      > yourself.
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > MJM
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland" <a.jayf at verizon.net>
>      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:25 AM
>      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
>      > Pump
>      > > > Replacement
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > >
>      > > > > > > Folks,
>      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam recommends
>      > > > replacing the water pump
>      > > > > assembly
>      > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with this
>      > the
>      > > > first year in service.
>      > > > > I'm
>      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months, occasionally
>      > flush
>      > > > with ear muffs (once a
>      > > > > > > month), and end of season run it in a
>      > barrel
>      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
>      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits, etc.).
>      > > > > > >
>      > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
>      > proceeding
>      > > > with this replacement
>      > > > > or
>      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
>      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
>      > > > > > >
>      > > > > > >
>      > > >
>      > __________________________________________________
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>      > > > > >
>      > > >
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>References
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