[Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam

Michael Meltzer mjm at michaelmeltzer.com
Sat Feb 14 01:54:58 EST 2004


we grow on people :-)

MJM

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim White" <jdwhite at panam.edu>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam


> Thanks...
> Feel like I'm makin' a new set of friends here....
> jwhite
> At 01:49 PM 02/13/2004 -0600, you wrote:
> >Jim,
> >
> >Thanks for the information, and for the perspective that you add to the
> >debate.  And congratulations on the new Rhodes.
> >
> >If I remember correctly, you're on the Texas Gulf Coast, right?  It seems
> >like your new boat will be a really good one for sliding over sandbars and
> >through the shallows in that direction.  I'm in Baton Rouge and sail in Lake
> >Ponchatrain, LA.  Let me know if you're ever this way and want to drink a
> >rum and go sailing.
> >
> >Ben
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Jim White [mailto:jdwhite at panam.edu]
> >Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 09:01
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle smoke: ad nauseam
> >
> >
> >    The 2 stroke 4 stroke debate is one that no only in sailors circles,
> >    but motorboat circles and generates spirited and lively debate- it's
> >    akin to arguing religion or politics. As a former mechanic turned
> >    biologist (marine), I work hand in hand with outboards, and repair
> >    shops at our facility each day. We probably log more water time than
> >    the average individual (I would guess). Here are some of the things
> >    that I have become aware of over the past several years:
> >    1. Two stroke engines will very well soon be a thing of the past.
> >    Pressure at the federal level to reduce emissions in the water, as
> >    well as the air will cause the death of the 2-stroke. Common sense
> >    then tells us that it will become increasingly difficult to obtain
> >    parts for those out of manufacture engines. Yes all engines pollute,
> >    and modern two strokes pollute much less than older ones. There are
> >    real fears out there like folks who mix their oil in the field (i.e.
> >    in the parking lot or out on the water, and spill directly, or older 2
> >    strokes that mix into the gas tank by human addition of the oil,
> >    running around rich and smokey ("smoke pots").....these are all well
> >    founded fears that the regulators & and environmentalists (especially)
> >    justify in pushing out the good ol' 2 stroke
> >    2. Four stroke engines  are inherently heavier than two strokes to a
> >    certain point in horsepower rating (about 90 or so), at which time the
> >    weight becomes a non-issue. This makes a great deal of difference to
> >    the small engine/small boat owner, especially ones like
> >    us....Manufacturers are working on cutting the weight of those smaller
> >    engines though, and the gap is closing there.
> >    3. Two stroke engines by virtue of operation have a higher low end
> >    torque which can be useful if you're powering a boat that needs to
> >    "get out of the hole" quickly....usually doesn't apply to sailcraft.
> >    However newer 4 strokes are quickly closing that gap also.
> >    4. According to our shops, four stroke engines have fewer problems,
> >    and see far less down time and many of our former two stroke engine
> >    fishing guides, eco-tour operators, and especially sailboat owners are
> >    now turning to the 4 stroke with this fact as a major selling point.
> >    However, when a four stroke breaks, it can be a more costly repair
> >    than a comparable two stroke, but again, with design changes in both
> >    engines, the gap narrows here too.....
> >    In any event, our facility has now plunged into the 4 stroke world
> >    along with the tide of others. BTW I have a 2002 9.9 Honda 4stroke as
> >    auxiliary (notice the previous word) power for my newly acquired
> >    Rhodes 22, Le Menagerie.
> >    Cheers (and sorry for the lengthy diatribe/dissertation...
> >    JDWHITE
> >    At 05:57 AM 02/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >      Wally
> >      I can't remember where I read the article about 2
> >      strokes meeting standards; one of my sail mag
> >      probably.  But I would think you are right.  If the
> >      smaller motors don't already; its just a matter of
> >      time.
> >      Steve
> >      --- Wally Buck <tnrhodey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >      > I had heard that the new cleaner 2 strokes were only
> >      > coming out in the
> >      > larger motors. Is this true? I got to think that the
> >      > technolgy will trickly
> >      > down to the smaller motors as well but you never
> >      > know.....
> >      >
> >      > Wally
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > >From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> >      > >Reply-To: kroposki at innova.net,The Rhodes 22 mail
> >      > list
> >      > ><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >      > >To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> >      > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >      > >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Steve 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> >      > smoke
> >      > >Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:42:21 -0500
> >      > >
> >      > >Steve,
> >      > >     The issue is that new 2 cycle engines are not
> >      > smoke pots.  They
> >      > >more than comply with the current environmental
> >      > standards and they will
> >      > >comply with the new impending standards.
> >      > >     As for using oil, all gas motors use oil and some
> >      > of that
> >      > >lubricating oil is combusted.  The issue is how
> >      > much of that oil and gas
> >      > >is wasted directly into the environment.  The old 2
> >      > cycle engines did
> >      > >not care.  However, the EPA standards got the
> >      > manufacturers attention
> >      > >and the new engines do not statistically pollute
> >      > the environment more
> >      > >than 4 cycle engines which also spew pollutants.
> >      > All gas engines
> >      > >pollute.  It is a matter of degree.  When that
> >      > degree is evaluated
> >      > >statistically is the difference significant?
> >      > Simply put, will the
> >      > >impact difference between the two types of motors
> >      > on the environment
> >      > >really matter?  A few years ago the answer was yes,
> >      > however, with design
> >      > >changes the effects are no longer statistically
> >      > significant.  They both
> >      > >pollute.
> >      > >
> >      > >                                       Ed K
> >      > >-----Original Message-----
> >      > >From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >      > >[[1]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> >      > Behalf Of Steve
> >      > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:01 AM
> >      > >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >      > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> >      > >
> >      > >I thought the reason they came out with 4 strocks
> >      > were
> >      > >to satify the Non-smoking folks:-) You know, you
> >      > have
> >      > >a smoking part of a Restaurant; and a non-smoking
> >      > >part.  You can now have a smoking part of a lake; &
> >      > a
> >      > >non-smoking part:-)You see, the more folks that go
> >      > 4
> >      > >stoke; that means the more folks that can go 2
> >      > stoke.
> >      > >And the enviroment only get poluted the same amount
> >      > >that we have always done for years:-)Beside, we
> >      > need a
> >      > >little more Globle warming.  Temps here are in the
> >      > >40s.  That evendent that we need to polute quite a
> >      > bit
> >      > >more.  Arkansas need to be warm up so are winter
> >      > stay
> >      > >above 50 degrees:-)What are you thinking,
> >      > Michael:-)
> >      > >Steve
> >      > >
> >      > >
> >      > >--- Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> wrote:
> >      > > > Well lets try a differ tack for the sessions
> >      > version
> >      > > > of the question, "So how much harm are you
> >      > willing
> >      > > > to cause, like: frogs
> >      > > > killed, fish unfit to eat, woman miscarry,
> >      > children
> >      > > > born with birth defects, men going impememnt,
> >      > etc..
> >      > > > so you can selflessy use
> >      > > > your 2 stoke". BTW did you beat your wife to day
> >      > :-)
> >      > > >
> >      > > > MJM
> >      > > >
> >      > > >
> >      > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >      > > > From: "Kroposki" <kroposki at innova.net>
> >      > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >      > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:12 AM
> >      > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 2 cycle vs 4 cycle
> >      > > >
> >      > > >
> >      > > > > Rummy,
> >      > > > > Here we go again.  I know better than question
> >      > the
> >      > > > technical
> >      > > > > accuracy and efficacy of Roger's eloquent
> >      > > > discussion, but I can lift my
> >      > > > > 2 cycle when I have to by myself.  Roger
> >      > forgets
> >      > > > that not everybody has
> >      > > > > two robust sons to help.  It is the old
> >      > problem of
> >      > > > being able to see a
> >      > > > > tree when you are in a forest.
> >      > > > > Ed K
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >      > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >      > > > > [[2]mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> >      > > > Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:52 AM
> >      > > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> >      > Pump
> >      > > > Replacement
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > Jay,
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > The usual problem with the water pump
> >      > impellors on
> >      > > > small outboards is
> >      > > > > that
> >      > > > > they are made from some sort of rubber.  It's
> >      > > > really a rather clever
> >      > > > > design.
> >      > > > > At low speed & at start-up, the rubber vanes
> >      > on
> >      > > > the impellor touch the
> >      > > > > water
> >      > > > > pump housing, thus making the pump positive
> >      > > > displacement & self-priming.
> >      > > > > At
> >      > > > > high speed, the rubber vanes deflect out of
> >      > the
> >      > > > way & ride on top of a
> >      > > > > boundary layer of water on the wetted surface
> >      > of
> >      > > > the water pump housing.
> >      > > > > At
> >      > > > > high speed, the vanes don't experience any
> >      > wear
> >      > > > because they are not
> >      > > > > touching the pump housing.  This design makes
> >      > the
> >      > > > water pump capable of
> >      > > > > automatically switching from positive
> >      > displacement
> >      > > > mode to centrifugal
> >      > > > > mode
> >      > > > > for delivering the high volume of cooling
> >      > water
> >      > > > required by high speed
> >      > > > > operation.
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > So what goes wrong?  Well, if the water pump
> >      > ever
> >      > > > runs dry, the rubber
> >      > > > > impellor will lose the lubrication & cooling
> >      > > > provided by the water,
> >      > > > > overheat, & destroy itself very quickly, like
> >      > in a
> >      > > > few seconds!
> >      > > > > Exposure to
> >      > > > > oil & gasoline in the water (like the oil film
> >      > > > that laid down by 2-cycle
> >      > > > > outboards) will gradually break down the
> >      > rubber
> >      > > > polymer molecules in the
> >      > > > > impellor; leading to embrittlement, cracking,
> >      > and
> >      > > > failure.  This is
> >      > > > > probably
> >      > > > > the single biggest long-term failure
> >      > mechanism.
> >      > > > Pump impellors should
> >      > > > > be
> >      > > > > routinely replaced every 4 years due to this
> >      > cause
> >      > > > alone.  There is also
> >      > > > > another common failure mechanism related to
> >      > > > storage.  When the lower leg
> >      > > > > is
> >      > > > > lifted free of the water, the entire cooling
> >      > > > system drains down.  This
> >      > > > > is
> >      > > > > why the water pump needs to be self-priming at
> >      > > > start-up.  Even fresh
> >      > > > > water &
> >      > > > > especially ocean water, has a certain amount
> >      > of
> >      > > > dissolved mineral salts
> >      > > > > in
> >      > > > > it.  When the cooling system drains down, a
> >      > small
> >      > > > amount of water is
> >      > > > > left
> >      > > > > trapped in between the ends of the vanes on
> >      > the
> >      > > > water pump impellor &
> >      > > > > the
> >      > > > > aluminum pump housing.  When this water
> >      > eventually
> >      > > > evaporates in
> >      > > > > storage,
> >      > > > > the impellor vanes can be bonded by salt
> >      > crystals
> >      > > > to the pump housing.
> >      > > > > Depending upon how strong this bond is, the
> >      > rubber
> >      > > > impellor can be
> >      > > > > damaged
> >      > > > > the next time the engine is started when the
> >      > vanes
> >      > > > are ripped free of
> >      > > > > the
> >      > > > > salt crystals.  In addition, for the 1st few
> >      > > > minutes of operation,
> >      > > > > before
> >      > > > > the salt crystals dissolve, they form a
> >      > relatively
> >      > > > rough surface on the
> >      > > > > water pump housing that the rubber vanes have
> >      > to
> >      > > > run over on every
> >      > > > > revolution.  Finally, there can be corrosion
> >      > > > issues with moist salt
> >      > > > > crystals
> >      > > > > in long-term contact with the aluminum pump
> >      > > > housing in this scenario.
> >      > > > > In
> >      > > > > salt water, it's considered good practice to
> >      > fresh
> >      > > > water flush the
> >      > > > > cooling
> >      > > > > system after every use & certainly before
> >      > > > long-term storage.  After
> >      > > > > long-term storage, it wouldn't hurt to fresh
> >      > water
> >      > > > flush the cooling
> >      > > > > system
> >      > > > > prior to start-up.  As part of my outboard
> >      > > > winterizing proceedure, I
> >      > > > > flush
> >      > > > > propylene gylcol potable antifreeze (RV "red
> >      > pop")
> >      > > > thru the cooling
> >      > > > > systems
> >      > > > > of my outboards.  propylene glycol will
> >      > prevent
> >      > > > the build-up of salt
> >      > > > > crystals in-between the vanes and the water
> >      > pump
> >      > > > housing.  During the
> >      > > > > boating season, on every start-up, I gently
> >      > pull
> >      > > > the outboard thru with
> >      > > > > the
> >      > > > > pull cord prior to starting it to break the
> >      > water
> >      > > > pump impellor free &
> >      > > > > give
> >      > > > > the engine several minutes of low speed
> >      > warm-up.
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > The result, the only water pump I've ever had
> >      > fail
> >      > > > on any of my
> >      > > > > outboards in
> >      > > > > 25+ years of boating was the time when my
> >      > younger
> >      > > > son Gary ran the
> >      > > > > inflatable dingy & Honda 9.9 hp outboard up on
> >      > the
> >      > > > beach with the engine
> >      > > > > at
> >      > > > > full throttle.  The water pump impellor was
> >      > burnt
> >      > > > to a crisp!
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > Good luck!
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> >      > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >      > > > > From: "Michael Meltzer"
> >      > <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> >      > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >      > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:25 AM
> >      > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> >      > Pump
> >      > > > Replacement
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > >
> >      > > > > > sounds like overkill and make work, maybe
> >      > the
> >      > > > impeller very 4 years,
> >      > > > > but
> >      > > > > the complete pump, nah. you are only putting
> >      > 25-50
> >      > > > hours on
> >      > > > > > the motor every year, one thing you do have
> >      > to
> >      > > > watch is salt on the
> >      > > > > thermostat(and blow the pelages, clean the pee
> >      > tub
> >      > > > yearly), is
> >      > > > > > one of the few parts on the engine that is
> >      > not
> >      > > > rust proof, time will
> >      > > > > get
> >      > > > > it and they need to be replace every two
> >      > years,
> >      > > > luckily it
> >      > > > > > is also a simple job that you can do
> >      > yourself.
> >      > > > > >
> >      > > > > > MJM
> >      > > > > >
> >      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >      > > > > > From: "Jay Friedland" <a.jayf at verizon.net>
> >      > > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> >      > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:25 AM
> >      > > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Yamaha 9.9 Water
> >      > Pump
> >      > > > Replacement
> >      > > > > >
> >      > > > > >
> >      > > > > > > Folks,
> >      > > > > > > My ob service guy says Yam recommends
> >      > > > replacing the water pump
> >      > > > > assembly
> >      > > > > > > every year. The motor is 2001 with this
> >      > the
> >      > > > first year in service.
> >      > > > > I'm
> >      > > > > > > in salt water 9-10 months, occasionally
> >      > flush
> >      > > > with ear muffs (once a
> >      > > > > > > month), and end of season run it in a
> >      > barrel
> >      > > > of fresh water for 1/2
> >      > > > > > > hour (alos to burn off deposits, etc.).
> >      > > > > > >
> >      > > > > > > Anybody offer best suggestions on
> >      > proceeding
> >      > > > with this replacement
> >      > > > > or
> >      > > > > > > any other winter routine?
> >      > > > > > >   Thanks, Jay
> >      > > > > > >
> >      > > > > > >
> >      > > >
> >      > __________________________________________________
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> >      > > > > >
> >      > > >
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