[Rhodes22-list] True vs Apparent (was Bullshit)

[Bill Effros]

Nah.

Actually, I always check the wind while I'm still on my mooring.  I'm not trying to make a calculation, only to understand wind speed more intuitively while I am sailing.

I've been meaning to mention how much I've enjoyed your comments.  Although, as often noted, I don't race, I've found your comments particularly enlightening.  You have sometimes apologized for your racing background and outlook, and I have long wanted to tell you that many of your postings have imparted interesting insights that cruising sailors cannot obtain from other cruising sailors.  I hope you will keep those comments coming.  I'm sure there are other cruisers on the list who share this opinion.

Bill Effros


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Peter Thorn 
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 7:22 PM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] True vs Apparent (was Bullshit)


Bill, Rummy and Roger,

When an R22 skipper uses a hand held anemometer measuring 20 knots
windspeed, going upwind with a 175 fully out, perhaps she's not really
sailing in 20 knots of true wind.  A Rhodes 22 goes smartly upwind in a
breeze - what would you say, 6 knots?  20 knots apparent wind on board might
only be 14-16 true to the seagull on the daymarker.  With an upwind current,
the difference could be more.

I agree that "Bullshit" is perhaps a little too pejorative for polite
company and cordial relations on this list.  But isn't it possible everyone
is a little bit correct here?

PT



Roger,

I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people often
overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.

The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats and
conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have IMF,
your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is
considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you do not
normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in conditions where
you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady, non-gusting
wind.

"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different factors
could be involved.

I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my experience it
is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the power
on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the boat sails
upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky" coming out of
my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't another boat on
Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like mine--but my
boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort, completely under
control.

I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail size
instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set an
interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can reverse
the tack and sail all the way home.

If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not necessarily
recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I would.
The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the boat a
faster boat.

Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water, either.
They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster when you
are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail upright,
and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright than
heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.

Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny outside the
shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125 fully
extended genny inside the shrouds.

If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside
shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is
substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the purpose.

Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main point:
because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget that
there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I don't
have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me when I
see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others into
accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other members
of the list.

Bill Effros











----- Original Message ----- 
From: Roger Pihlaja
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.


Rummy,

It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The force
available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg with
the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind beat &
yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20 knots?
This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand up
against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling force
that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The more
likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a hand
held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again, get
yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.  We can
argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal examples
over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
overestimating the wind speed.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.


> Dear Roger,
> The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing. Until
then,
> Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You bring the
> rum.
>
> Rummy
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>


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