[Rhodes22-list] back to Gennys ....Bullshit.

Sat Mar 13 21:59:48 EST 2004

Wally,

I have no stake in which sail you select for your boat, I only want to state for the record that I have and adore the 175 genny.  It is an extremely unique sail specifically designed for the Rhodes-22 for use on Long Island Sound by the man who has been refining the boat for the past 30 something years.  I sail a Rhodes-22 on Long Island Sound, and, for me, the sail is a knockout.  I wouldn't have any other.

I don't knock other sails, and can see the benefits of one sail or another in given circumstances.  I know you can, too, and that is what you are grappling with.

My philosophy of sailing is exactly the same as Rummy's, posted a few months ago, which I will now cut and paste.  All my postings should be read in light of Rummy's philosophy:

  "I like to keep things simple because a lot of complicated things takes brain power and thought and that just takes away from my drinking time while sailing. That's another reason you don't find a lot of fandangled hardware on my boat like spinnakers and poles and the like.  They take too much time to handle and it takes away from the real reason I sail.....I like to drink and listen to loud music. I have the funnest boat on the lake.....ask anybody.......they all know RumRunner. Yes, you might blow my doors off, but who cares?"

Bill Effros

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wally Buck 
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] back to Gennys ....Bullshit.

Bill,

As I mentioned in an earlier post it would be nice to be able to test sail 
before you buy. I also said I am trying to keep an open mind.

I am not confusing discomfort with speed. Any decent sailor knows that a 
boat heeling excessively is not at optimum trim. Sure the race committee 
penalizes you for head sails larger than a 155. I agree that a 175 can be a 
faster sail. I am just not sure the advantage is at 20 knots of true wind. 
That being said I have never sailed with one and I am looking for the best 
sail for about 8 - 12.

I don't have a wind gauge or knot meter. I guess at wind speed when pleasure 
sailing and rely on the committee boat to announce and record wind speed 
when racing.  I measure boat speed with my GPS. I am also trying to use the 
VMG features.

Many variables to consider but Rummy and I both have an 84. I don't think my 
boat is loaded down much at all, can't speak for Rummy's. Earlier posts did 
not mention hanky mains when sailing in 20. I know that I need to furl main 
and my 125 when sailing in 20 knots. If I make the main too small it seems 
like I have eliminated the slot and there is no lift provided. I might as 
well just furl all of the way.

PS - Just got back from a nice 24 mile sail. Picture perfect with about 10 
-15. Too bad I didn't have a 175 to play with. :-)

Wally

>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
>Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:29:03 -0500
>
>Roger,
>
>I use a hand held anemometer, also, and, like you, I know people often 
>overestimate wind speed.  But, again, like you, I do not.
>
>The mistake we sometimes make is in thinking that all of our boats and 
>conditions are the same.  But, as I recall, your boat does not have IMF, 
>your mainsail has battens, you do not have a 175 genny, your boat is 
>considerably lighter in weight than boats of more recent vintage, you do 
>not normally sail in currents, and you do not normally sail in conditions 
>where you can stay on a single tack for hours on end in a steady, 
>non-gusting wind.
>
>"Bullshit" is rather a strong technical term when so many different factors 
>could be involved.
>
>I asked Wally if he has a standard or IMF main because in my experience it 
>is the main sail that controls heel, and the genny that provides the power 
>on my boat.  In strong winds I roll up the main far enough so the boat 
>sails upright.  Sometimes this results in a stupid looking "hanky" coming 
>out of my IMF slot.  I leave the 175 all the way out.  There isn't another 
>boat on Long Island Sound that has its sails set even remotely like 
>mine--but my boat goes like a bat out of hell--in total comfort, completely 
>under control.
>
>I don't like to lower the boom, and rarely do so.  I reduce main sail size 
>instead.  I don't race, I don't sail triangular courses.  I can set an 
>interesting tack and stay with it all day, and with any luck I can reverse 
>the tack and sail all the way home.
>
>If Wally had said he has a standard mail sail, I would not necessarily 
>recommend the 175 for his boat.  But since he says he has the IMF, I would. 
>  The race committees are right.  The 175 genny is going to make the boat a 
>faster boat.
>
>Many people don't know how fast they're going through the water, either.  
>They tend to confuse discomfort with speed.  It feels much faster when you 
>are petrified about tipping over.  But an R-22 is designed to sail upright, 
>and if you can measure the speed you will see it goes faster upright than 
>heeled, all other conditions being equal.  Ask Jay about this.
>
>Furthermore, the characteristics of a fully extended 175 genny outside the 
>shrouds are substantially different from the characteristics of a 125 fully 
>extended genny inside the shrouds.
>
>If it is important to me to point higher I will move the sail inside 
>shrouds, but the amount of sail available in those conditions is 
>substantially less than is available with smaller sails cut to the purpose.
>
>Returning from all these digressions to what is actually my main point: 
>because we are all owners of Rhodes-22 sailboats we frequently forget that 
>there are substantial and important differences between our boats.  I don't 
>have the time to mention it every time I see it, but it disturbs me when I 
>see forceful writers or experienced sailors try to bludgeon others into 
>accepting their points of view, which may not be valid for all other 
>members of the list.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Roger Pihlaja
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
>Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:16 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
>
>
>Rummy,
>
>It is when folks claim things that are physically impossible.  The force
>available from the wind on the sails is proportional to the
>[Wind Speed]^2.  How is it that my Rhodes 22 is healed over at 30 deg with
>the rails awash at about 12 -15 knots of wind when sailing an upwind beat &
>yet other Rhodes 22's claim to be able to carry full sail up to 20 knots?
>This means that; somehow, these other Rhodes 22's are able to stand up
>against a heeling force that is [20]^2 / [15]^2 = 1.78X the heeling force
>that knocks my Rhodes 22 down on its rail.  I don't think so!  The more
>likely explanation is incorrect wind speed estimation.  Since I use a hand
>held anemometer and calibrate every year, I believe my data.  Again, get
>yourself an anemometer, measure the wind speed, & show me your data.  We 
>can
>argue until the cows come home, but I won't believe your anecdotal examples
>over my own data.  I think you will be surprised how much you are
>overestimating the wind speed.
>
>Roger Pihlaja
>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:22 AM
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Bullshit.
>
>
> > Dear Roger,
> > The next time you are in this area, stop in and let's go sailing. Until
>then,
> > Bullshit is not an appropriate term to be used on this list. You bring 
>the
> > rum.
> >
> > Rummy
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
>
>
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