lee helm was Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????

Sun Mar 14 16:22:56 EST 2004

Mary Lou,

"Sailing with the 175 all the way out
(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the Genoa track"

That seems like the smoking gun to me, so I think you have already
discovered the problem.  If the forestay is too short and is pulling the rig
forward, that certainly could give you lee helm.

Most sails are designed and cut to power up at the forward most Genoa car
position.  For example, with the Genoa cars all the way forward and going
close hauled, when you head up the Genoa should break evenly along the luff,
top to bottom.  With this set up to depower, instead of furling,  you can
just pull the Genoa car back and the top leech opens and spills air.
Because your entire rig is so far forward, to get the luff to break evenly
you have already moved the Genoa car all the way aft and have no room
remaining to adjust sheet leads aft.  Your existing 175 is probably cut just
fine, but on too short a forestay pulling the top of the mast too far
forward.

To correct this tuning problem you could determine exactly how much longer
the forestay needs to be so that the clew of the 175, when close-hauled,
trims near the front of the Genoa tracks. I'll bet you and Fred could do
this in the backyard, on a calm day, with the rig up and 175 fully out.  Try
to get the boat's waterline reasonably level with the trailer jacks (this is
not critically important).  Don't attach the forward lower shrouds (to allow
the mast to learn aft) and get a 15' or so piece of strong line, like 5/32
spectra, that you could loop between the bottom forestay fitting and the
stem head fitting 3 or 4 times, for a good purchase.  Tie this off and then
take up loose tension with the backstays.  When you have increased the mast
rake so that your 175 clew trims forward on the tracks, you'll know exactly
how much longer (than your existing) to order a new forestay.

As far as this port/starboard lee helm variance thing goes, have you checked
you rig for "trueness"?  (You might want to do this first, so you'll know if
it really is way out of adjustment before you try the forestay thing):  With
your boat rigged on the trailer, attach a tape measure to a masthead halyard
and lock off the halyard.  Then, with tape tight, measure to the starboard
deck and then to the port deck, being sure to measure to corresponding same
spots.  A boat with a "true" mast will result in equal measurements.  If
yours is way out, that could be the culprit.

I am not a rig tuning expert by any means.  I suspect the IMF main probably
always requires a dead straight mast, so as not to mess up the internal
roller.  There is a lot of reference material available about how to do tune
rigs.  I have read that too loose a rig can be dangerous because it allows
large forces to develop when gusts and waves combine.  Too tight a rig just
overstresses the hull.  Like Goldilocks' porridge, your rig should be tuned
"just right".. A quick Google search tuned up plenty of resources (tapes,
books) and some looked pretty good.

I hope some of this is helpful to you.

Fair Winds,

PT

Peter,
Our lee helm is more noticeable in light air - though even in higher
windspeeds we need to furl with the helm in mind. It is more prominent on
port tack - maybe something to do with the big outboard on the port stern
or the heavy galley to starboard or....?  We seem to have more issues than
other R22s. I've heard a number of reports of lee helm or neutral in light
air but we've had significant lee helm at 10 knots. We've made lots of
changes with weight distribution, making sure the centerboard drops all the
way and tightening the backstays. Some of these improved the situation but
it's still there. This year we're going to let the forestay out a notch at
the masthead. We meant to do it last year but forgot and it wasn't enough
of a problem to drop the mast again. Sailing with the 175 all the way out
(light air), we have the lead cars all the way back on the genoa track. Are
you suggesting that with it partially furled we should keep the cars a bit
further aft than we might ordinarily? We'll have to try to remember that.
As might be expected, we also can make improvements playing with the
traveler. We didn't get many opportunities to sail in steady winds last
year so most of our playing around was from the year before.

Not really sure about our ideal big genoa. For a long time I thought it
would be smaller than a 175 but we had 6 or 7 sails this past year where
the 175 was just perfect. Don't know if we'd have done nearly as well with
a 155 or 160 but maybe so. It would definitely be lighter than the current
very heavy sailcloth. The heaviness is necessary I suppose if you are never
going to change sails but I like the idea of having several.  I'll be
interested to hear what Wally thinks once he has his new sail - whatever it
is.

Mary Lou

At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Mary Lou,
>
>Just a thought...   To get rid of lee helm with your 175, have you tried
>moving the genoa lead tack point much farther aft on the genoa track?  This
>should spill air from the top of the sail, lower the headsail's center of
>effort, and, combined with an appropriate amount of furling for the
>conditions, perhaps help to balance the helm.  I agree that you would also
>want to keep as much main out as possible, as you suggested, to maintain
the
>Center of  Effort  farther aft and that the IMF, with no roach, would tend
>to aggravate this condition because it's CE is farther forward.
>
>Under what conditions do you develop lee helm?
>
>What size and weight would your "ideal big genoa" be?
>
>Fair winds,
>
>PT
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mary Lou Troy" <mltroy at verizon.net>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:04 AM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
>
>
>Wally, we reduce sail well before 20 knots (actual or apparent) windspeed.
>Our 175 seems to be the perfect sail from 4 to 10 knots. I suspect we begin
>to furl it a little before 10 if it's gusty. I don't think we've ever tried
>Bill's method of furling the main more than the genny as we are always
>trying to get rid of lee helm. For the record we don't like the 175 for
>much below 4 knots of wind - the sailcloth is just too heavy to keep the
>sail full in any kind of wave action - that's one of the reasons we went to
>the UPS for really light air.
>
>My current thinking on an ideal set of sails for our boat and the way we
>sail would be the UPS, a somewhat lighter big genoa and a heavier 125-130.
>
>I think a standard main with a roach would affect heeling differently than
>the IMF main. I also suspect (but don't know) that furling our mains the
>way we do makes them more susceptible to having them develop a blown out
>belly and that this may affect heeling as well. I've also noticed that it
>is easier to get a flatter main with our new through-the-boom outhaul
>arrangement - we used to have to tie the outhaul off to a horn cleat so it
>was not very adjustable on the go.
>
>Mary Lou
>
>
>At 10:27 AM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >I have IMF. I am amazed at the range of comments regarding wind speed and
> >sail selection. I don't see how it could matter if I had IMF or Standard
> >main. My boat needs sails reduced in 20 plus.
> >
> >Wally
> >
> >
> >>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:59:49 -0500
> >>
> >>Standard main or IMF?
> >>
> >>Bill Effros
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: Wally Buck
> >>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >>Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:14 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >>
> >>
> >>My boat must be light or something. At 20 heading upwind my 125 is
furled
>to
> >>keep me off the rail and I am fighting a 30 degree heel.  Most likely
the
> >>boom is lowered halfway as well. I like exciting sails as much as anyone
>and
> >>more than most. Too bad you can't try sails out and return them like
>clothes
> >>that don't quite fit!
> >>
> >>Still have an open mind .....
> >>
> >>Wally
> >>
> >> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >> >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:04:45 -0500
> >> >
> >> >Twice in one day.
> >> >
> >> >Again, Wally, I agree with Rummy.  I rarely furl below 20 knots.  I
sail
> >> >the boat upright with minimum heel.  I generally sail alone.  The 175
>makes
> >> >it very easy to come about.  I adjust sail sizes to keep the boat well
> >> >balanced.  When I'm sailing in crowded harbors I reduce the size of
the
>175
> >> >so I can see the traffic better.
> >> >
> >> >Bill Effros
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> >> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >> >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:18 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Purchasing new genny????
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Wally,
> >> >When you furl depends a lot on your style of sailing and how much
>ballast
> >> >(people weight) you have with you. When alone, I never furl until the
>winds
> >> >gust
> >> >above 20 knots. Below that and I'm comfortable. The 175 is an awesome
>sail.
> >> >Besides looking good, it is an excellent performer in lite air as Bill
> >> >mentioned. By the way, I think this is one of the first times anyone
has
> >> >agreed with me
> >> >on the list.....I appreciate your support Bill.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Rummy
> >> >__________________________________________________
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> >>
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