[Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette

Mark Kaynor mark at kaynor.org
Mon Oct 18 10:48:25 EDT 2004


Wally,

I suspect most folks would be reasonable about it, but apparently there are
some "sharks" out there.

A Belgian couple in the discussion who sailed over from Europe said that you
have to be especially careful in France - there are "voluntary salvors" who
prey on uninformed boaters in trouble - the "use your line, not theirs" was
reiterated by them.

>From http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/salvage

"Legal disputes do arise from the claiming of "salvage rights". To reduce
the risk of a claim after an accident, boat owners or skippers often remain
on board and in command of the vessel, they do everything possible to
minimize further loss and take no action that implies that the ship seeks
rescue. If another vessel offers a tow the skipper negotiates the reward
before accepting the offer and provides the tow rope."

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Wally Buck
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 3:40 PM
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette

I think the owner of the line is not important. If you tow a boat that is in
no danger of sinking, is not causing damage to other boats and/or property
and is not placing people in danger you do not get salvage rights.

If a boat is in danger of sinking, grounding, blocking traffic, causing
environmental harm you may have salvage claim.

I pulled this from a web sight -
http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/salvage_aw
ard.htm

The admiralty law of the United States has long recognized that the law of
salvage rewards the voluntary salvor for the successful rescue of life or
property imperiled at sea. In order to have a valid claim for having
rendered salvage services, the salvor must show that the property saved was
imperiled, that his services were voluntarily rendered, and that he was
successful in whole or in part to the saving of the property.

A salvor who has earned the right to a salvage award for the successful
voluntary salvage to a vessel in peril has a preferred maritime lien on the
vessel. However, a salvor must surrender possession of the vessel to the
owner on demand if the owner posts reasonable security for the claim. If the
owner declines to post sufficient security to pay salvage charges, the
salvor must turn the vessel over to the U. S. Marshall and proceed to
foreclose the maritime lien.

There are several factors that would be considered by a court in
establishing the amount of the salvor's award. Some of these include the
difficulty of the operation, the risk involved to the salvor, the value of
the property saved, and the degree of danger to which the property was
exposed. It would be a rare case in which the salvage award would be greater
than 50 percent of the value of the vessel. More commonly, salvage awards
amount to 10 percent to 25 percent of the value of the vessel and property
salvaged.

Wally

>From: "Mark Kaynor" <mark at kaynor.org>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:21:30 -0400
>
>Bob,
>
>This just came up last night in discussion w/ friends at our marina in 
>Deltaville over a few drinks. The general consensus was "if you use the 
>other guy's line, you open yourself up for the possibility of a salvage 
>claim of up to 12.5% of the value of the boat and it's cargo". No one 
>had any references w/ which to back this up, but all seemed to agree 
>that, if the other guy tosses you a line, you should let it fall in the 
>water and toss him your line if you need a tow.
>
>Mark Kaynor
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bob Weber
>Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 11:38 AM
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette
>
>I was once told that a "rescuer" can claim salvage to your boat if he 
>throws you a line and you attach it to your boat.  I was told if that 
>happens to let the line go in the water then you throw him a line 
>instead.  Is that an old wives tale or high seas law?
>
>Bob
>
> >From: "Wally Buck" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette
> >Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:47:24 -0400
> >
> >As MJM says it depends on conditions. Your boat must be in "peril". 
> >The person towing may be entitled to compensation but usually it is 
> >less than the boat. There are many gray areas.
> >
> >Wally
> >
> >>From: Michael Meltzer <mjm at michaelmeltzer.com>
> >>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette
> >>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:06:13 -0400
> >>
> >>The way I heard it: you use your own anchor rode, what way you get 
> >>the work of putting back together and it the difference between 
> >>giving a tow and providing the equipment to give a tow(higher 
> >>salvage claim), A yatchman should never claim salvage for a tow(that 
> >>etiquette), but the commercial (sea tow, boat us, fisherman 
> >>sometimes, etc.. will charge) and you are best off agreeing to a 
> >>price before hand otherwise is is a salvage claim. All this is 
> >>tempered by conditions and distance. 20 minutes to a dock on a sunny 
> >>day vs 20 miles offshore in a storm, hard grounding all bets are 
> >>off(i.e salvage), same goes for taking on water. BTW beware of power 
> >>boats giving a tow, they go to fast
>sometimes.
> >>
> >>My favorite: the captain is respectable for everything on the boat. 
> >>no one else. i.e. the helmsman hits a buoy in broad daylight, 5000$ 
> >>of damage the captain pays, the captain was sleeping in the cabin, 
> >>still his fault, try to blame the crew or anyone else, wrong still 
> >>his faults, tries to give the bill to anyone, big time wrong, the 
> >>boat is holed by the bouy(salvage that the captain pays), boat is a 
> >>totaled loose, the captain lost. Bad charts, his fault, part breaks, 
> >>still his fault. crew does not follow orders, his fault. Boat yard 
> >>screewed up, still the captin. Get hit by another boat, even 
> >>following the rules(i.e standon), still will be blamed for "poor
seamanship".
> >>Something happen dock/anchor/mooring while the captin is 100 miles 
> >>away, still his fault, should have been "maned". No water on board,
>salvage.
> >>
> >>It ok to jump on another boat at the dock to fend off and save it 
> >>from a "docking challenged captain".
> >>
> >>If something break, is damaged, tell the captin, do not "hide" it. 
> >>If someone causes damage to your boat, let is slide or file with 
> >>your insurance(the Jay Paul Getty thing). get sick, spill something, 
> >>overflow the head, clean it up.
> >>
> >>MJM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Bob Weber wrote:
> >>
> >>>Slim, I am looking for correct behavior either legal or polite. 
> >>>Most of the high seas laws were nothing more than common sense 
> >>>etiquette at one time until someone lacking commonsense or 
> >>>etiquette caused a stink by not abiding. The fact that I have to 
> >>>teach the good semaritan 'Law" in class is an example of this. Bob
> >>>
> >>>>From: Steve Alm <salm at mn.rr.com>
> >>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>To: Rhodes <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] More Lacking Etiquette
> >>>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:13:10 -0500
> >>>>
> >>>>Bob,
> >>>>
> >>>>Are you looking for etiquette or law? Two different things, aren't
>they?
> >>>>This one seems like a legal issue whereas helping a stranger land 
> >>>>his boat is etiquette. What about finding an unattended vessel at 
> >>>>sea? Finders keepers? But again--that's law, no?
> >>>>
> >>>>Slim
> >>>>
> >>>>On 10/13/04 1:46 PM, "Bob Weber" <ruba1811 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > I thought of another one having to do with the High Seas 
> >>>> > Salvage
> >>>>rules but
> >>>> > forget how it goes. When getting assistance from another vessel 
> >>>> > - who
> >>>>has
> >>>> > to throw a line to whom so as not to lose your boat to the 
> >>>> > rescuer on
> >>>>a
> >>>> > technicality? anyone? Bueler.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > BW
> >>>> >
> >>>> > _______________________________________________________________
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