[Rhodes22-list] Outboards

[Roger Pihlaja]

Bill,

It's obvious you are not much of an experimentalist.  The experiment is
easy.  You fill up the gas tank, go motor around for a while, noting the
mileage traveled on your knotlog or GPS, & finally go fill up the gas tank
again.  The gas pump gives you the fuel used accurate to 3 significant
figures, certified accurate by annual state inspection.  I owned the 6 hp
Evinrude 2-cycle engine from 1987 to 1996.  I was able to repeat this fuel
consumption measurement many times & it was very reproducible.  I have used
my current 8 hp Honda 4-cycle outboard from 1996 to the present and have
made this measurement several times.  Again, the fuel consumption is very
reproducible.  Overall, I estimate my fuel consumption data is accurate to
about +/- 5%.

You could cancel out the effects of current in your location by running back
and forth across the stream instead of with & against the current.  Instead
of going on about how my data are no good, why don't you go out & take some
of your own?  I think you will be shocked at how bad your fuel mileage
really is.

 Most small boat owners use their engines much more than you do.  Your
meager engine usage is not a valid reason not to ban small 2-cycle
outboards.  It just means you will probably be using your 2-cycle outboard
long after they become a relatively rare sight on the water.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilbrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards


> Roger,
>
> I haven't used a gallon of gas all summer.  (Which is my real point.)
>
> I don't motor on lakes.
>
> Your statement "My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle outbaord got about 6 nm/gal
at 5 knots.  My
> present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10 nm/gal at 5 knots." is
meaningless, and I know you it.
>
> Can you look inside your 5 gallon tank, pull out your slide rule and know
precisely how much gas you have used?  I can't.  If you can, please tell me
how to do that.
>
> More likely, you have run through a tank of gas, then computed your
distance on charts.
>
> I can't do that.  Not only do I not average a tank of gas all summer, I
live with currents.  If I take my boat to the East River, turn on my Tohatsu
at idle, and go with the flow, I can travel 6 nm using maybe 1/2 pint of
gas.  If I then put your engine on my boat, turn around, and go against the
flow at full throttle, I will empty your gas tank and not move an inch
forward.
>
> And I think we can both agree that the results of such a test would be
meaningless.
>
> Most of us do not run through a tank-full of gas every time we go sailing.
We turn on our motors for relatively short periods of time, we maneuver
through moorings, or slips, or other things that are the reason we don't
have our sails up in the first place.  We do not run at full throttle under
these conditions.
>
> I have never seen a test of how much gas is used by a hard-starting
4-stroke to go 300 yards, but I'll bet you anything its not twice as good as
my easy-start 2-stroke.
>
> As I remember, your Evinrude had a cavitation problem because it had a
shorter shaft, which you solved with a longer shaft on your Honda.  I
believe you once said this would contribute to better mileage.
>
> You have also noted in the past that 4-stroke engine manufacturers
routinely set their idle mixture too low in order to meet emissions
standards, and this results in stalling.  I quote you:
>
> "Some carburetors have an idle air/fuel ratio mixture adjusting screw.  On
my
> Honda 9.9, the proceedure is to gently screw the idle air/fuel pilot all
the
> way in (clockwise) & then back it out (counterclockwise) 2-3/4 turns.
This
> is the basic adjustment & you may have to reset the idle speed again after
> doing this.  An experienced mechanic usually fine tunes the idle air/fuel
> ratio by listening to the engine idling.  If the engine is still stalling
at
> the basic 2-1/4 turns counterclockwise setting, then the problem is
usually
> an air/fuel ratio that is too lean.  The engine manufacturers are trying
> real hard to meet the emission regulations & this tends to drive them
> towards setting up their carbs on the lean side.  To richen up the idle
> air/fuel ratio, turn the pilot screw out counterclockwise 1/4 turn &
listen
> to how the engine runs.  Keep turning the pilot screw out 1/4 turn
> counterclockwise until the engine runs smoothly & doesn't stall.  I
realize
> that proceedure sounds a little artsy-crafty, but that's how mechanics
fine
> tune the idle air/fuel ratio.
>
> "In order to meet emission regulations, some manufacturers seal the idle
> air/fuel ratio mixture screw with lead or epoxy so you can't adjust it.
If
> this is the case with your Yamaha, then you will have to take it back to
the
> dealer."
>
> Oh, wait, Roger--Here's the smoking gun!
>
> I quote from your post on November 14, 2001:.
>
> "David,
>
> "The Japanese engines seem to be a cold-blooded lot.  My Hondas demand
> several minutes of warm-up running on at least partial choke & fast idle
> before they are willing to idle in gear at 1100 rpm without any choke."
>
> Roger--I turn on my motor; drop my mooring; motor away from other boats;
raise my sails; and turn off my motor.  However much gas and oil I use,
that's it.  You are still sitting in your slip, warming up your engine when
my engine is off, not using any gas at all.
>
> I do not seek a spat with you.  I will not be challenged to a duel.  My
next motor will be either be a 4-stroke, or a little generator like the one
brad is using and an electric motor.  Clearly, judging from Ron's recent
experience, they have not yet worked out all the bugs on 4-stroke marine
engines.  I'm going to wait until they do.  The way most of us use our
motors, an old 2 stroke is no more environmentally unsound than a new 4
stroke.
>
> I really must run.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Pihlaja
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
>
>
> Bill,
>
> My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle outbaord got about 6 nm/gal at 5 knots.  My
> present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10 nm/gal at 5 knots.  Same
> boat, same lake, same conditions, just about 2X better mileage.  There's
> real world data, Bill.  What sort of mileage do you get?
>
> The facts I cited in my FAQ were published in peer reviewed scientific
> journals & government agency reports by qualified researchers.  I expect
you
> to adhere to the same standard of evidence.  The list will be waiting with
> baited breath for you to back up your claims with good science.  If it
turns
> out that you can; then, I'll be the 1st to apologise.  Until then, you
have
> nothing but a bunch of unsubstantiated claims & some charming anecdotal
> stories.
>
> The trouble with the internet is that anyone can set themselves up as an
> "expert" and claim anything with no substance behind it.  In this case,
you
> are spreading false information regarding 4-cycle reliability & the
2-cycle
> vs. 4-cycle emissions issues.  On this issue, you just simply WRONG!
>
> You can wait until after the election or until the cows come home.  I'm
> betting you won't be able to back up your claims sir.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
>
>
> > Roger,
> >
> > I don't have time for this right now, but I will get back to it after
the
> election.  If I forget, I'm counting on you to bring it up again the next
> time I mention 2 cycle engines.
> >
> > Like many things in this world, this issue is not what it seems.
> Legislation was passed that benefits large corporations at the expense of
> everyone else without providing substantial benefits to the environment
that
> couldn't be achieved at far lower cost.
> >
> > And yes, I can back that up with "good science".
> >
> > I'm with Ed on this one.  Many of the "facts" you have cited in the past
> come from research institutes funded by engine manufacturers.  The tested
> engines cannot be duplicated in the real world.  Your engine does not go
> twice as far on a gallon of gas than mine.
> >
> > I'll spend more time on this when I have it.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > One defective engine from Nissan  has nothing to do with average
emissions
> > from 4-cycle vs. 2-cycle engines.
> >
> > Bill, for every one of your amusing anecdotes about people having
troubles
> > with their 4-cycle outboards, I can cite you four other stories about
> > 4-cycle owners that are happy with 2X better fuel economy, less noise,
no
> > smoke, not having to mix oil with the gas, etc.  You know, I've talked
> with
> > mechanics at local marinas, did a search on the internet, looked in
> Consumer
> > Reports, looked in the Consumer Product Recall archieves.  I can't find
> any
> > hard evidence about the problems you keep harping about regarding
4-cycle
> > reliability.  In my FAQ which I sent to you, I cited the emission &
> > toxicology studies that led up to the current emssion regulations.  You
> > rejected it all as "glurge".  If the 4-cycle outboards were really
having
> > the sorts of problems you claim on a widespread basis; then, shouldn't
> there
> > be
> > some hard data somewhere?  Well, now its your turn sir, I challenge you
> > to cite us some hard data on this issue - a service bulletin from one of
> the
> > outboard manufacturers, a consumer product safety commision report, a
> > reputable survey - something other than your own experience.
> >
> > By the way, even if your claims about having to mix additives with
4-cycle
> > fuel were true, which I dispute, the 4-cycle engine emission data shows
it
> > emits about 1/10 the unburned hydrocarbons of a 2-cycle engine.  So,
even
> if
> > these additives were required in 4-cycle fuel, the 4-cycle engine would
> > still do a much better job of incinerating them than 2-cycle engines do.
> >
> > Bill, it's time to put up or shut up.  I say you don't know what you are
> > talking about.  Show us the data to prove that you do.  Until you can
> > show us this data, I'm going to bring this issue up every time you say
> > anything about 2-cycle vs. 4-cycle engines.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > > That's "abated breath" I hit the send key when aiming for the save
key.
> > >
> > > Keep us posted on the Nissan.  I don't know if anyone else has a
Nissan
> > 4-stroke.  I was considering them, also.  Is it quiet?
> > >
> > > Roger, not to go round on this again, but my consistent point has been
> > that Ron with his supposedly environmentally sound engine has just
dumped
> > more oil into the environment in 2 hours than I have dumped into the
> > environment with my 2 stroke in 2 years.  The dealer reports this was
not
> an
> > isolated case.  Many people on the list with 4-strokes are dumping oil
> into
> > their gas tanks to ensure proper lubrication of their engines.
> > >
> > > As everyone knows, I can go off on a right-wing screed on this issue,
> but
> > I am trying to restrain myself.
> > >
> > > I know everyone is trying to do the right thing.  Sometimes that
impulse
> > leads to bad policy, bad laws, and bad decisions.  What does Ron do now?
> > They're not going to give him a new engine.  And maybe a new one would
be
> > just as bad as the one he's got.
> > >
> > > What do I do now?  I was thinking of getting a 4-stroke, too, but I
> wanted
> > to see what happened with Ron.
> > >
> > > I WAS waiting with 'bated breath.
> > >
> > > Bill Effros
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Bill Effros
> > > To: Ronald Lipton ; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe it's a contraction for "abated breth" 'bated breath.
> > >
> > > Bill Effros
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ronald Lipton
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:09 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For those of you waiting with baited beath (does this means worms
> > > hanging out of your mouth?).  I ended up buying the Nissan 6 four
> > > cycle.   I could not find a reasonably priced used 2 cycle long shaft.
> > > The Monroe Harbormaster was very accomodating ferrying me out
> > > to the boat and helping me remove the old engine and install the new
> > > one.
> > >
> > > The story does not yet have a happy ending ... the new Nissan
> > > is burning oil, having emptied it's resovoir after about 2 hours of
> > > running and with a thick cloud of smoke on startup.  I was told by
> > > the dealer that some of the engines "do that" until they are broken
> > > in - but I am sceptical.  Hopefully I can keep it running well
> > > enough to allow me to finish the season before it is serviced, but
> > > I still have the outboard blues.
> > >
> > > for Stan:
> > >
> > > Go IU, beat Purdue. ( It might happen someday)
> > >
> > > Ron
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
>