[Rhodes22-list] Outboards
Steve
rhodes2282 at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 23 09:42:55 EDT 2004
Roger
2 cycles are not going away. Again, no one even you
can work on one. 4 cycle will never be considered
realible due to the fact that if they tear up; you
can't fix them on the water. Gas is never an issue.
If it was; Hummers would not be allowed on the
streets. They only get around 6 mpg. My new Chevy
truck get maybe twice that but I still might buy me a
Hummer:-)
Steve
--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> It's obvious you are not much of an experimentalist.
> The experiment is
> easy. You fill up the gas tank, go motor around for
> a while, noting the
> mileage traveled on your knotlog or GPS, & finally
> go fill up the gas tank
> again. The gas pump gives you the fuel used
> accurate to 3 significant
> figures, certified accurate by annual state
> inspection. I owned the 6 hp
> Evinrude 2-cycle engine from 1987 to 1996. I was
> able to repeat this fuel
> consumption measurement many times & it was very
> reproducible. I have used
> my current 8 hp Honda 4-cycle outboard from 1996 to
> the present and have
> made this measurement several times. Again, the
> fuel consumption is very
> reproducible. Overall, I estimate my fuel
> consumption data is accurate to
> about +/- 5%.
>
> You could cancel out the effects of current in your
> location by running back
> and forth across the stream instead of with &
> against the current. Instead
> of going on about how my data are no good, why don't
> you go out & take some
> of your own? I think you will be shocked at how bad
> your fuel mileage
> really is.
>
> Most small boat owners use their engines much more
> than you do. Your
> meager engine usage is not a valid reason not to ban
> small 2-cycle
> outboards. It just means you will probably be using
> your 2-cycle outboard
> long after they become a relatively rare sight on
> the water.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
>
>
> > Roger,
> >
> > I haven't used a gallon of gas all summer. (Which
> is my real point.)
> >
> > I don't motor on lakes.
> >
> > Your statement "My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle
> outbaord got about 6 nm/gal
> at 5 knots. My
> > present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10
> nm/gal at 5 knots." is
> meaningless, and I know you it.
> >
> > Can you look inside your 5 gallon tank, pull out
> your slide rule and know
> precisely how much gas you have used? I can't. If
> you can, please tell me
> how to do that.
> >
> > More likely, you have run through a tank of gas,
> then computed your
> distance on charts.
> >
> > I can't do that. Not only do I not average a tank
> of gas all summer, I
> live with currents. If I take my boat to the East
> River, turn on my Tohatsu
> at idle, and go with the flow, I can travel 6 nm
> using maybe 1/2 pint of
> gas. If I then put your engine on my boat, turn
> around, and go against the
> flow at full throttle, I will empty your gas tank
> and not move an inch
> forward.
> >
> > And I think we can both agree that the results of
> such a test would be
> meaningless.
> >
> > Most of us do not run through a tank-full of gas
> every time we go sailing.
> We turn on our motors for relatively short periods
> of time, we maneuver
> through moorings, or slips, or other things that are
> the reason we don't
> have our sails up in the first place. We do not run
> at full throttle under
> these conditions.
> >
> > I have never seen a test of how much gas is used
> by a hard-starting
> 4-stroke to go 300 yards, but I'll bet you anything
> its not twice as good as
> my easy-start 2-stroke.
> >
> > As I remember, your Evinrude had a cavitation
> problem because it had a
> shorter shaft, which you solved with a longer shaft
> on your Honda. I
> believe you once said this would contribute to
> better mileage.
> >
> > You have also noted in the past that 4-stroke
> engine manufacturers
> routinely set their idle mixture too low in order to
> meet emissions
> standards, and this results in stalling. I quote
> you:
> >
> > "Some carburetors have an idle air/fuel ratio
> mixture adjusting screw. On
> my
> > Honda 9.9, the proceedure is to gently screw the
> idle air/fuel pilot all
> the
> > way in (clockwise) & then back it out
> (counterclockwise) 2-3/4 turns.
> This
> > is the basic adjustment & you may have to reset
> the idle speed again after
> > doing this. An experienced mechanic usually fine
> tunes the idle air/fuel
> > ratio by listening to the engine idling. If the
> engine is still stalling
> at
> > the basic 2-1/4 turns counterclockwise setting,
> then the problem is
> usually
> > an air/fuel ratio that is too lean. The engine
> manufacturers are trying
> > real hard to meet the emission regulations & this
> tends to drive them
> > towards setting up their carbs on the lean side.
> To richen up the idle
> > air/fuel ratio, turn the pilot screw out
> counterclockwise 1/4 turn &
> listen
> > to how the engine runs. Keep turning the pilot
> screw out 1/4 turn
> > counterclockwise until the engine runs smoothly &
> doesn't stall. I
> realize
> > that proceedure sounds a little artsy-crafty, but
> that's how mechanics
> fine
> > tune the idle air/fuel ratio.
> >
> > "In order to meet emission regulations, some
> manufacturers seal the idle
> > air/fuel ratio mixture screw with lead or epoxy so
> you can't adjust it.
> If
> > this is the case with your Yamaha, then you will
> have to take it back to
> the
> > dealer."
> >
> > Oh, wait, Roger--Here's the smoking gun!
> >
> > I quote from your post on November 14, 2001:.
> >
> > "David,
> >
> > "The Japanese engines seem to be a cold-blooded
> lot. My Hondas demand
> > several minutes of warm-up running on at least
> partial choke & fast idle
> > before they are willing to idle in gear at 1100
> rpm without any choke."
> >
> > Roger--I turn on my motor; drop my mooring; motor
> away from other boats;
> raise my sails; and turn off my motor. However much
> gas and oil I use,
> that's it. You are still sitting in your slip,
> warming up your engine when
> my engine is off, not using any gas at all.
> >
> > I do not seek a spat with you. I will not be
> challenged to a duel. My
> next motor will be either be a 4-stroke, or a little
> generator like the one
> brad is using and an electric motor. Clearly,
> judging from Ron's recent
> experience, they have not yet worked out all the
> bugs on 4-stroke marine
> engines. I'm going to wait until they do. The way
> most of us use our
> motors, an old 2 stroke is no more environmentally
> unsound than a new 4
> stroke.
> >
> > I really must run.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > My old Evinrude 6 hp 2-cycle outbaord got about 6
> nm/gal at 5 knots. My
> > present Honda 8 hp 4-cycle outboard gets about 10
> nm/gal at 5 knots. Same
> > boat, same lake, same conditions, just about 2X
> better mileage. There's
> > real world data, Bill. What sort of mileage do
> you get?
> >
> > The facts I cited in my FAQ were published in peer
> reviewed scientific
> > journals & government agency reports by qualified
> researchers. I expect
> you
> > to adhere to the same standard of evidence. The
> list will be waiting with
> > baited breath for you to back up your claims with
> good science. If it
> turns
> > out that you can; then, I'll be the 1st to
> apologise. Until then, you
> have
> > nothing but a bunch of unsubstantiated claims &
> some charming anecdotal
> > stories.
> >
> > The trouble with the internet is that anyone can
> set themselves up as an
> > "expert" and claim anything with no substance
> behind it. In this case,
> you
> > are spreading false information regarding 4-cycle
> reliability & the
> 2-cycle
> > vs. 4-cycle emissions issues. On this issue, you
> just simply WRONG!
> >
> > You can wait until after the election or until the
> cows come home. I'm
> > betting you won't be able to back up your claims
> sir.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:20 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> >
> >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > I don't have time for this right now, but I will
> get back to it after
> the
> > election. If I forget, I'm counting on you to
> bring it up again the next
> > time I mention 2 cycle engines.
> > >
> > > Like many things in this world, this issue is
> not what it seems.
> > Legislation was passed that benefits large
> corporations at the expense of
> > everyone else without providing substantial
> benefits to the environment
> that
> > couldn't be achieved at far lower cost.
> > >
> > > And yes, I can back that up with "good science".
> > >
> > > I'm with Ed on this one. Many of the "facts"
> you have cited in the past
> > come from research institutes funded by engine
> manufacturers. The tested
> > engines cannot be duplicated in the real world.
> Your engine does not go
> > twice as far on a gallon of gas than mine.
> > >
> > > I'll spend more time on this when I have it.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Roger Pihlaja
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:16 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > One defective engine from Nissan has nothing to
> do with average
> emissions
> > > from 4-cycle vs. 2-cycle engines.
> > >
> > > Bill, for every one of your amusing anecdotes
> about people having
> troubles
> > > with their 4-cycle outboards, I can cite you
> four other stories about
> > > 4-cycle owners that are happy with 2X better
> fuel economy, less noise,
> no
> > > smoke, not having to mix oil with the gas, etc.
> You know, I've talked
> > with
> > > mechanics at local marinas, did a search on the
> internet, looked in
> > Consumer
> > > Reports, looked in the Consumer Product Recall
> archieves. I can't find
> > any
> > > hard evidence about the problems you keep
> harping about regarding
> 4-cycle
> > > reliability. In my FAQ which I sent to you, I
> cited the emission &
> > > toxicology studies that led up to the current
> emssion regulations. You
> > > rejected it all as "glurge". If the 4-cycle
> outboards were really
> having
> > > the sorts of problems you claim on a widespread
> basis; then, shouldn't
> > there
> > > be
> > > some hard data somewhere? Well, now its your
> turn sir, I challenge you
> > > to cite us some hard data on this issue - a
> service bulletin from one of
> > the
> > > outboard manufacturers, a consumer product
> safety commision report, a
> > > reputable survey - something other than your own
> experience.
> > >
> > > By the way, even if your claims about having to
> mix additives with
> 4-cycle
> > > fuel were true, which I dispute, the 4-cycle
> engine emission data shows
> it
> > > emits about 1/10 the unburned hydrocarbons of a
> 2-cycle engine. So,
> even
> > if
> > > these additives were required in 4-cycle fuel,
> the 4-cycle engine would
> > > still do a much better job of incinerating them
> than 2-cycle engines do.
> > >
> > > Bill, it's time to put up or shut up. I say you
> don't know what you are
> > > talking about. Show us the data to prove that
> you do. Until you can
> > > show us this data, I'm going to bring this issue
> up every time you say
> > > anything about 2-cycle vs. 4-cycle engines.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > >
> > >
> > > > That's "abated breath" I hit the send key when
> aiming for the save
> key.
> > > >
> > > > Keep us posted on the Nissan. I don't know if
> anyone else has a
> Nissan
> > > 4-stroke. I was considering them, also. Is it
> quiet?
> > > >
> > > > Roger, not to go round on this again, but my
> consistent point has been
> > > that Ron with his supposedly environmentally
> sound engine has just
> dumped
> > > more oil into the environment in 2 hours than I
> have dumped into the
> > > environment with my 2 stroke in 2 years. The
> dealer reports this was
> not
> > an
> > > isolated case. Many people on the list with
> 4-strokes are dumping oil
> > into
> > > their gas tanks to ensure proper lubrication of
> their engines.
> > > >
> > > > As everyone knows, I can go off on a
> right-wing screed on this issue,
> > but
> > > I am trying to restrain myself.
> > > >
> > > > I know everyone is trying to do the right
> thing. Sometimes that
> impulse
> > > leads to bad policy, bad laws, and bad
> decisions. What does Ron do now?
> > > They're not going to give him a new engine. And
> maybe a new one would
> be
> > > just as bad as the one he's got.
> > > >
> > > > What do I do now? I was thinking of getting a
> 4-stroke, too, but I
> > wanted
> > > to see what happened with Ron.
> > > >
> > > > I WAS waiting with 'bated breath.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Effros
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Bill Effros
> > > > To: Ronald Lipton ; The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:21 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe it's a contraction for "abated
> breth" 'bated breath.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Effros
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Ronald Lipton
> > > > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:09 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Outboards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For those of you waiting with baited beath
> (does this means worms
> > > > hanging out of your mouth?). I ended up
> buying the Nissan 6 four
> > > > cycle. I could not find a reasonably priced
> used 2 cycle long shaft.
> > > > The Monroe Harbormaster was very accomodating
> ferrying me out
> > > > to the boat and helping me remove the old
> engine and install the new
> > > > one.
> > > >
> > > > The story does not yet have a happy ending ...
> the new Nissan
> > > > is burning oil, having emptied it's resovoir
> after about 2 hours of
> > > > running and with a thick cloud of smoke on
> startup. I was told by
> > > > the dealer that some of the engines "do that"
> until they are broken
> > > > in - but I am sceptical. Hopefully I can keep
> it running well
> > > > enough to allow me to finish the season before
> it is serviced, but
> > > > I still have the outboard blues.
> > > >
> > > > for Stan:
> > > >
> > > > Go IU, beat Purdue. ( It might happen someday)
> > > >
> > > > Ron
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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