[Rhodes22-list] Foresails with Roger's Adjustments
Roger Pihlaja
cen09402 at centurytel.net
Fri Sep 24 13:52:31 EDT 2004
Ed,
With your standard 175% genoa reefed down to 120%; it will be impossible to
get a really good sail shape. When the genoa is reefed that much, you lose
luff tension & there is that big "lump" of reefed sail right on the leading
edge disturbing the airflow. You would find you can sail to weather better
if you reef your mainsail 1st & leave as much of your genoa up as you can.
The Rhodes 22 gets most of its drive from the genoa. The partially reefed
mainsail will be less subject to backwinding from the 175% genoa & you will
be able to take advantage of the best possible genoa sailshape up into
higher wind speed ranges. Remember, the Rhodes 22 hull develops weather
helm as it heels. By reefing the mainsail 1st & leaving up as much genoa as
possible, you are unbalancing the sail plan & introducing lee helm. But,
the weather helm due to the heeling of the boat will cancel out the lee helm
from having most of the sail area forward of the mast & result in a more
nearly neutral helm, better boat speed, & better pointing ability.
If Fred's sails are old & blown out; then, that alone would account for his
100 - 110 degree tacking angles.
I'm probably going to start another argument; but, the diamond centerboard
boats are also the ones most likely to have a 175% genoa & the IMF mainsail.
A big overlapping headsail and a smaller, battenless mainsail with no roach
is not the hot setup for sailing to weather.
Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
----- Original Message -----
From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Foresails with Roger's Adjustments
> Roger,
>
> I only have a GBI 175. When the wind is 15+, I usually furl and use
> the inside tracks. After all the discussion about sail shape on this
list,
> I adjust the cars to obtain best sail shape when using the inside track.
> For that matter, I do the same on the outside tracks when I have the 175
out
> all the way.
>
> For my purposes, I can maintain adequate sail shape by doing what I
> do. Remember, I am not a racer. I have used the inside track with the
> sails at least to 120, maybe more. I keep the boat flat and maintain
speed
> in Hartwell's variable wind conditions. Whereas, Rummy comes trucking by
> with 175 and a lot of heel, hooping and hollering.
>
> I now have to print your instructions and try them out. It is
> interesting that you will give 80 to 90 degrees pointing with a
centerboard.
> Note that Fred says 100 to 110 with the diamond board. On the other hand,
> maybe my boat is an America's Cup Candidate. Where is that Dennis Connor
> book?
>
> If the diamond board allows closer pointing, why is it that those
> people are the ones usually having problems sailing close to the wind?
>
> Ed K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:05 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
>
> Ed,
>
> The GBI factory claim regarding boats equipped with the diamond board is
> that they point somewhat better than the boats with the older high aspect
> ratio centerboard. This claim may very well be true because the diamond
> board has more surface area than the old centerboards. If there were a
> Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then, the diamond board boats would
be
> handicapped according to some % of the ratio of the surface areas of the
two
> different centerboards. It would be interesting to have a match race
> between an old centerboard & new centerboard boat. Although, it would be
> difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were sufficiently similar in all the
> other important factors like weight, IMF mainsail vs. standard mainsail,
> 150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.
>
> Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds like you are using your forward
> jib car tracks with your 175% genoa. With your 175% genoa, any jib car
> position on the forward track with result in a genoa sail shape with
> insufficient twist for optimum performance. The correct jib car position
> for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in the vicinity of the winch
pads.
> The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to achieve the best jib car position:
>
> JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:
>
> The basic method for determining the position for the jib cars is to sight
> up the jib sheet & continue the imaginary line past the clew all the way
to
> the forestay. At the proper jib car position, this imaginary line should
> intersect the midpoint on the luff of the sail. As the sail is reefed, the
> jib car position will move forward. Shift to the forward track when the
rear
> track won't give you the proper geometry, usually with a foresail smaller
> than about 100%.
>
> The above procedure will give you an approximate jib car position, which
can
> then be fine tuned thru the use of tell tales. The following procedure can
> be used for fine tuning the jib on points of sail from close hauled to a
> beam reach. On any point of sail more downwind than a beam reach, you
should
> just use the above basic procedure since the mode of operation of the sail
> changes from behaving like a wing to behaving more like a parachute.
>
> You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back from the luff & equally spaced
> down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell tales are installed with a small
> window so the sail trimmer can see the tell tale on both sides of the sail
> without having to duck their head under the sail. The sail is properly
> trimmed when the windward & leeward tell tales at all 3 positions are
> streaming backwards. The proper jib car position is determined by either
the
> jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib sheet or the helmsman pinching
up
> slightly into the wind while watching the behavior of the tell tales.
(This
> test is done slowly) If the top tell tales flutter before the bottom;
then,
> the sail shape is twisted too much. You should move the jib car position
> forward a few inches. This will alter the geometry of the jib sheet to
cause
> the line to pull down more on the clew of the sail, increase leech
tension,
> & reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales flutter 1st; then, the sail needs
> more twist & the jib car position should be moved aft a couple of inches.
> Note that this effect is subtle & moving the jib car position a few inches
> one way or the other is all that is required.
>
> Peter, you should also remember to start your sail trimming with the
> headsail, get it close & then trim the mainsail. The two sails will
interact
> & affect each other's trim settings. So, you have to keep trimming 1st one
&
> then the other making fine adjustments. Most cruising sailers call the
sail
> trim good enough after about one repetition of this procedure unless
sailing
> conditions suddenly change drastically.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 07 Jul 2001
>
>
>
> Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that you make better progress to
> windward if you sheet the headsail such that it is slightly off the
spreader
> tip. The 175% genoa is a very large headsail & it tends to backwind the
> mainsail if sheeted in too tightly. This is especially a problem in the
> light air that the 175% genoa is normally used in. You can detect
> backwinding of your mainsail by watching the behavior of the leech
telltales
> on your mainsail. They should normally be streaming aft when everything
> else is trimmed properly. If the mainsail leech telltales are fluttering
or
> drooping when everything else is apparently trimmed properly; then, try
> letting off the genoa sheet until the mainsail leech telltales just stop
> drooping. Optimise your jib car position for that genoa sheet setting &
now
> you're beating to weather efficiently!
>
> I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial composite sailcloth genoa & fully
> battened roachy mainsail. The acceleration in response to a puff of wind
> just sets you back into the seat & is completely additive! Besides, when
> the sun is behind it & you can see the biradial panel design &
construction
> in silouette, it just looks totally cool!
>
> 100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing to brag about. On the other
> hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is approaching the performance of an
> America's Cup boat & is, therefore, a little hard to believe for a
> trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails. Tacking angles in the 80 -
90
> degree range are what's reasonable for our Rhodes 22's with OEM sails.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
>
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net
> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
>
> Fred:
>
> Are you going to replace the sacrificial canvass yourself or have a
> loft or Sailcare fix it? Or are you going buy a new sail?
> That being said, my question that you never answered was do you have
> a centerboard or diamond board. But I think that you have answered the
> question by telling us the condition of your Genny. If you had a diamond
> board, your sails should be newer and therefore not deteriorated. So may
> I
> conclude that you have a centerboard?
> Does your boat have inside sheeting tracks, fairleads or cleats on
> the outside cabin wall? Since I have the inside tracks, I can adjust the
> cars which have blocks to maintain leech tension on the 175. I have
> concluded that with the tracks, I can maintain better sail shape by
> adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight and well angled when sheeting
> inside.
> Even with the sails outside, maybe the condition of the sails is a
> big factor in your pointing. The tighter I get my Genny, the better I
> point, even at 175. I have not figured out how to get the foot as tight
> as the leech. If I use a balance approach, the leech is not tight enough.
> I can see why those who race get the 'new' high tech sails.
>
> Ed K
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
> SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing dog question
>
> Ed,
>
> I thought I answered your question and I don't recall asking one. Since
> We so misunderstand each other, we ought to have a political discussion.
>
> Anyway, today was God's late summer gift to boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
> temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and no waves. Yet even while I was
> so enraptured by His presence, I though of you, Ed. Rather, I was thinking
> of your question, or answer, or whatever.
>
> Coming back to my home light, I was beating at about 4.5 knots. The boat
> Was pinching as hard as I could get her by tightening the back stays as
> much as I could and pulling the 175% genny to the end of the track. The
> Autohelm was locked to keep the tiller at midship, allowing the R22 to
seek
> the highest point into the wind. The GPS showed her track varied 3-5
deg,
> which would represent the variation in wind direction.
>
> Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on board to keep the boat sailing
> On her lines because I was single handing and getting too old to sit on
the
> Rail comfortably. So heel was between 10 and 20 deg. Another problem is
> that the leech edge of the canvas sun protection strip for my genny has
> rotted allowing the tension line to fly free. (Got to wait for winter
to
> fix that since I have the GBI furler.)
>
> In clear air, I tacked three times through 100 to 110 degrees. That
means
> I was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off the wind. With more ballast
and
> A not-ratty head sail, I probably would have been closer to the
theoretical
> 45 deg.
>
> Does that answer your question? (Oops, maybe we're back in the
> question-question loop again.)
>
> Fred
>
> In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ekroposki at charter.net writes:
>
> Fred:
> Thank you for still not answering my question while asking another.
>
> Would it have been a question to which you do not know the answer?
>
> Nevertheless, I will answer your question and that is I do not know
> the real answer to that question. I just look at who has trouble
> pointing to the wind. By asking the question, from those willing to
> respond, I get more information on which to make an opinion. I also learn
> ways to better point to the wind.
> I am not an experienced sailor. I am a Saturday afternoon sailor
> who uses the wind to take him anywhere and nowhere in particular.
> That being said, if the wind is fresh, I believe that if scientific
> instruments were used, when I set up for the wind, I can point less the
> 45 degrees mentioned on this list recently. In fact, when I try, I think
> that I can get closer to 35 degrees.
> However, that is just a wild-eyed guess based on my Windex. Last
> Saturday with the wind gusting to knock down power, I could not get
> that, but at that point the Genny was outside at about 100% and I was on
> final approach to the Marina.
> And, if you read the post on this list you will learn how to push
> the envelope.
> Now tell us, does your dog point?
>
> Ed K
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
> SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
>
> Ed,
>
> I thought the diamond board was better because of the more forward
> Weight distribution.
>
> Fred
>
> In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ekroposki at charter.net writes:
>
>
>
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's Hunter IMF
>
> Fred:
>
> Is it a secret? Because I think that R22's with a centerboard like
> Mine point better than those with a diamond board. But so far this just a
> Guess or opinion. Now answer the question, pretty please.
>
> Ed K
>
>
>
>
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