[Rhodes22-list] Foresails with Roger's Adjustments

[ed kroposki]

Roger,

	I only have a GBI 175.  When the wind is 15+, I usually furl and use
the inside tracks.  After all the discussion about sail shape on this list,
I adjust the cars to obtain best sail shape when using the inside track.
For that matter, I do the same on the outside tracks when I have the 175 out
all the way. 

	For my purposes, I can maintain adequate sail shape by doing what I
do.  Remember, I am not a racer.  I have used the inside track with the
sails at least to 120, maybe more.  I keep the boat flat and maintain speed
in Hartwell's variable wind conditions.  Whereas, Rummy comes trucking by
with 175 and a lot of heel, hooping and hollering.

	I now have to print your instructions and try them out.  It is
interesting that you will give 80 to 90 degrees pointing with a centerboard.
Note that Fred says 100 to 110 with the diamond board.  On the other hand,
maybe my boat is an America's Cup Candidate.  Where is that Dennis Connor
book?

	If the diamond board allows closer pointing, why is it that those
people are the ones usually having problems sailing close to the wind?

Ed K     

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Roger Pihlaja
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:05 AM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

Ed,

The GBI factory claim regarding boats equipped with the diamond board is
that they point somewhat better than the boats with the older high aspect
ratio centerboard.  This claim may very well be true because the diamond
board has more surface area than the old centerboards.  If there were a
Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then, the diamond board boats would be
handicapped according to some % of the ratio of the surface areas of the two
different centerboards.  It would be interesting to have a match race
between an old centerboard & new centerboard boat.  Although, it would be
difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were sufficiently similar in all the
other important factors like weight, IMF mainsail vs. standard mainsail,
150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.

Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds like you are using your forward
jib car tracks with your 175% genoa.  With your 175% genoa, any jib car
position on the forward track with result in a genoa sail shape with
insufficient twist for optimum performance.  The correct jib car position
for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in the vicinity of the winch pads.
The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to achieve the best jib car position:

JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:

The basic method for determining the position for the jib cars is to sight
up the jib sheet & continue the imaginary line past the clew all the way to
the forestay. At the proper jib car position, this imaginary line should
intersect the midpoint on the luff of the sail. As the sail is reefed, the
jib car position will move forward. Shift to the forward track when the rear
track won't give you the proper geometry, usually with a foresail smaller
than about 100%.

The above procedure will give you an approximate jib car position, which can
then be fine tuned thru the use of tell tales. The following procedure can
be used for fine tuning the jib on points of sail from close hauled to a
beam reach. On any point of sail more downwind than a beam reach, you should
just use the above basic procedure since the mode of operation of the sail
changes from behaving like a wing to behaving more like a parachute.

You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back from the luff & equally spaced
down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell tales are installed with a small
window so the sail trimmer can see the tell tale on both sides of the sail
without having to duck their head under the sail. The sail is properly
trimmed when the windward & leeward tell tales at all 3 positions are
streaming backwards. The proper jib car position is determined by either the
jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib sheet or the helmsman pinching up
slightly into the wind while watching the behavior of the tell tales. (This
test is done slowly) If the top tell tales flutter before the bottom; then,
the sail shape is twisted too much. You should move the jib car position
forward a few inches. This will alter the geometry of the jib sheet to cause
the line to pull down more on the clew of the sail, increase leech tension,
& reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales flutter 1st; then, the sail needs
more twist & the jib car position should be moved aft a couple of inches.
Note that this effect is subtle & moving the jib car position a few inches
one way or the other is all that is required.

Peter, you should also remember to start your sail trimming with the
headsail, get it close & then trim the mainsail. The two sails will interact
& affect each other's trim settings. So, you have to keep trimming 1st one &
then the other making fine adjustments. Most cruising sailers call the sail
trim good enough after about one repetition of this procedure unless sailing
conditions suddenly change drastically.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
07 Jul 2001



Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that you make better progress to
windward if you sheet the headsail such that it is slightly off the spreader
tip.  The 175% genoa is a very large headsail & it tends to backwind the
mainsail if sheeted in too tightly.  This is especially a problem in the
light air that the 175% genoa is normally used in.  You can detect
backwinding of your mainsail by watching the behavior of the leech telltales
on your mainsail.  They should normally be streaming aft when everything
else is trimmed properly.  If the mainsail leech telltales are fluttering or
drooping when everything else is apparently trimmed properly; then, try
letting off the genoa sheet until the mainsail leech telltales just stop
drooping.  Optimise your jib car position for that genoa sheet setting & now
you're beating to weather efficiently!

I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial composite sailcloth genoa & fully
battened roachy mainsail.  The acceleration in response to a puff of wind
just sets you back into the seat & is completely additive!  Besides, when
the sun is behind it & you can see the biradial panel design & construction
in silouette, it just looks totally cool!

100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing to brag about.  On the other
hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is approaching the performance of an
America's Cup boat & is, therefore, a little hard to believe for a
trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails.  Tacking angles in the 80 - 90
degree range are what's reasonable for our Rhodes 22's with OEM sails.

Roger Pihlaja

S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net
To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

 Fred:

 Are you going to replace the sacrificial canvass yourself or have a
 loft or Sailcare fix it?  Or are you going buy a new sail?
 That being said, my question that you never answered was do you have
 a centerboard or diamond board.  But I think that you have answered the
 question by telling us the condition of your Genny.  If you had a diamond
 board, your sails should be newer and therefore not deteriorated.  So may
I
 conclude that you have a centerboard?
 Does your boat have inside sheeting tracks, fairleads or cleats on
 the outside cabin wall?  Since I have the inside tracks, I can adjust the
 cars which have blocks to maintain leech tension on the 175.  I have
 concluded that with the tracks, I can maintain better sail shape by
 adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight and well angled when sheeting
 inside.
 Even with the sails outside, maybe the condition of the sails is a
 big factor in your pointing.  The tighter I get my Genny, the better I
 point, even at 175.  I have not figured out how to get the foot as tight
as the leech.  If I use a balance approach, the leech is not tight enough.
I can see why those who race get the 'new' high tech sails.

 Ed K
 -----Original Message-----
 From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
 [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
 SVGravityLeak at aol.com
 Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
 To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
 Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing dog question

 Ed,

 I thought I answered your question and I don't recall asking one.  Since
We so misunderstand each other, we ought to have a political discussion.

 Anyway, today was God's late summer gift to boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
 temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and no waves.  Yet even while I was
so enraptured by His presence, I though of you, Ed. Rather, I was thinking
of your question, or answer, or whatever.

 Coming back to my home light, I was beating at about 4.5 knots.  The boat
 Was pinching as hard as I could get her by tightening the back stays as
much as I could and pulling the 175% genny to the end of the track.  The
Autohelm was  locked to keep the tiller at midship, allowing the R22 to seek
the highest  point into the wind.  The GPS showed her track varied 3-5 deg,
which would represent the variation in wind direction.

 Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on board to keep the boat sailing
On  her lines because I was single handing and getting too old to sit on the
 Rail comfortably.  So heel was between 10 and 20 deg.  Another problem is
that the leech edge of the canvas sun protection strip for my genny has
rotted  allowing  the tension line to fly free.  (Got to wait for winter to
fix that since I have the GBI furler.)

 In clear air, I tacked three times through 100 to 110 degrees.  That means
I was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off the wind.  With more ballast and
A not-ratty head sail, I probably would have been closer to the theoretical
45  deg.

 Does that answer your question?  (Oops, maybe we're back in the
 question-question loop again.)

 Fred

 In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
 ekroposki at charter.net writes:

  Fred:
    Thank you for still not answering my question while asking another.
 
    Would it have been a question to which you do not know the answer?
 
    Nevertheless, I will answer your question and that is I do not know
  the real answer to that question.  I just look at who has trouble
pointing   to the wind.  By asking the question, from those willing to
respond, I get more information on which to make an opinion.  I also learn
ways to better point to the wind.
    I am not an experienced sailor.  I am a Saturday afternoon sailor
  who uses the wind to take him anywhere and nowhere in particular.
    That being said, if the wind is fresh, I believe that if scientific
  instruments were used, when I set up for the wind, I can point less the
45 degrees mentioned on this list recently.  In fact, when I try, I think
 that I can get closer to 35 degrees.
    However, that is just a wild-eyed guess based on my Windex.  Last
  Saturday with the wind gusting to knock down power, I could not get
that, but at that point the Genny was outside at about 100% and I was on
final approach to the Marina.
    And, if you read the post on this list you will learn how to push
  the envelope.
    Now tell us, does your dog point?
 
  Ed K
 
 
  -----Original Message-----
  From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
  [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
  SVGravityLeak at aol.com
  Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:46 AM
  To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
  Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's pointing
 
  Ed,
 
  I thought the diamond board was better because of the more forward
Weight distribution.
 
  Fred
 
  In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
  ekroposki at charter.net writes:
 
  
  
  Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's Hunter IMF
  
  Fred:
  
  Is it a secret?  Because I think that R22's with a centerboard like
Mine point better than those with a diamond board.  But so far this just a
  Guess or opinion.  Now answer the question, pretty please.
  
  Ed K