[Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails

[Steve]

I hear you, Roger.  It would be fun:-)
Steve


--- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:

> Steve,
> 
> You know, the fair-minded sportsman side of me, says
> I'd need to spot the
> newest boats with the diamond centerboard, IMF
> mainsail, 175% genoa, real
> marine head with holding tank, electric motor lift,
> & all the fancy, heavy
> cabinetry about 50-60 sec/nm in order to make it a
> fair race.  But, it sure
> would be fun to match race boat for boat!  With the
> handicap, you'd have no
> choice but to pull a horizon job on the competition
> in order to rack up the
> time required to beat the handicap.  But, with
> 500-700 lbs less weight, a
> real mainsail with more area & battens, & only a
> 150% genoa to mess with;
> think of how you could mess with their heads in a
> match race!  A tacking
> duel would be especially fun.  You could sail right
> over the top of anyone,
> park them in your slipstream, & watch them choke on
> your dirty air!  Or, you
> could deliberately slow down by dragging things in
> the water, like your
> outboard &/or swim ladder, just enough extra drag to
> stay slightly out of
> reach.  I have a friend with a MacGregor 25 & I
> frequently do that to him.
> It drives him nuts!
> 
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> 
> 
> > You got that right; Roger.  Beside you know as
> well as
> > I do that the winner is the one with the most
> tricks
> > up his sleave.
> >
> > When racing, you don't have time to readjust your
> > sheet & adjusting the lead forward while on the
> same
> > tack is almost imposible.  But you can run a
> secondary
> > in a minute notice when the wind call for it.
> > Steve
> >
> > PS - I bet our old boats can take these new
> > diamondboard:-)
> >
> > --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > That's what I was talking about when I said it
> would
> > > be difficult to find
> > > two Rhodes 22's that were sufficiently alike
> except
> > > for their centerboards
> > > to have a valid match race.
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:31 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> > >
> > >
> > > > Excellent, write up, Roger.
> > > > One thing though; you would also take a hit on
> > > > handicapp with any foresail greater than 155%.
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Roger Pihlaja <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > > The GBI factory claim regarding boats
> equipped
> > > with
> > > > > the diamond board is
> > > > > that they point somewhat better than the
> boats
> > > with
> > > > > the older high aspect
> > > > > ratio centerboard.  This claim may very well
> be
> > > true
> > > > > because the diamond
> > > > > board has more surface area than the old
> > > > > centerboards.  If there were a
> > > > > Rhodes 22 single design racing class; then,
> the
> > > > > diamond board boats would be
> > > > > handicapped according to some % of the ratio
> of
> > > the
> > > > > surface areas of the two
> > > > > different centerboards.  It would be
> interesting
> > > to
> > > > > have a match race
> > > > > between an old centerboard & new centerboard
> > > boat.
> > > > > Although, it would be
> > > > > difficult to find two Rhodes 22 that were
> > > > > sufficiently similar in all the
> > > > > other important factors like weight, IMF
> > > mainsail
> > > > > vs. standard mainsail,
> > > > > 150% vs. 175% genoa, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps I've misunderstood; but, it sounds
> like
> > > you
> > > > > are using your forward
> > > > > jib car tracks with your 175% genoa.  With
> your
> > > 175%
> > > > > genoa, any jib car
> > > > > position on the forward track with result in
> a
> > > genoa
> > > > > sail shape with
> > > > > insufficient twist for optimum performance. 
> The
> > > > > correct jib car position
> > > > > for a 175% genoa will be on the aft track in
> the
> > > > > vicinity of the winch pads.
> > > > > The below enclosed FAQ discusses how to
> achieve
> > > the
> > > > > best jib car position:
> > > > >
> > > > > JIB CAR TUNING PROCEDURE:
> > > > >
> > > > > The basic method for determining the
> position
> > > for
> > > > > the jib cars is to sight
> > > > > up the jib sheet & continue the imaginary
> line
> > > past
> > > > > the clew all the way to
> > > > > the forestay. At the proper jib car
> position,
> > > this
> > > > > imaginary line should
> > > > > intersect the midpoint on the luff of the
> sail.
> > > As
> > > > > the sail is reefed, the
> > > > > jib car position will move forward. Shift to
> the
> > > > > forward track when the rear
> > > > > track won't give you the proper geometry,
> > > usually
> > > > > with a foresail smaller
> > > > > than about 100%.
> > > > >
> > > > > The above procedure will give you an
> approximate
> > > jib
> > > > > car position, which can
> > > > > then be fine tuned thru the use of tell
> tales.
> > > The
> > > > > following procedure can
> > > > > be used for fine tuning the jib on points of
> > > sail
> > > > > from close hauled to a
> > > > > beam reach. On any point of sail more
> downwind
> > > than
> > > > > a beam reach, you should
> > > > > just use the above basic procedure since the
> > > mode of
> > > > > operation of the sail
> > > > > changes from behaving like a wing to
> behaving
> > > more
> > > > > like a parachute.
> > > > >
> > > > > You should have 3 tell tales about 12" back
> from
> > > the
> > > > > luff & equally spaced
> > > > > down the luff of the sail. Usually, tell
> tales
> > > are
> > > > > installed with a small
> > > > > window so the sail trimmer can see the tell
> tale
> > > on
> > > > > both sides of the sail
> > > > > without having to duck their head under the
> > > sail.
> > > > > The sail is properly
> > > > > trimmed when the windward & leeward tell
> tales
> > > at
> > > > > all 3 positions are
> > > > > streaming backwards. The proper jib car
> position
> > > is
> > > > > determined by either the
> > > > > jib trimmer pulling in slightly on the jib
> sheet
> > > or
> > > > > the helmsman pinching up
> > > > > slightly into the wind while watching the
> > > behavior
> > > > > of the tell tales. (This
> > > > > test is done slowly) If the top tell tales
> > > flutter
> > > > > before the bottom; then,
> > > > > the sail shape is twisted too much. You
> should
> > > move
> > > > > the jib car position
> > > > > forward a few inches. This will alter the
> > > geometry
> > > > > of the jib sheet to cause
> > > > > the line to pull down more on the clew of
> the
> > > sail,
> > > > > increase leech tension,
> > > > > & reduce twist. If the bottom tell tales
> flutter
> > > > > 1st; then, the sail needs
> > > > > more twist & the jib car position should be
> > > moved
> > > > > aft a couple of inches.
> > > > > Note that this effect is subtle & moving the
> jib
> > > car
> > > > > position a few inches
> > > > > one way or the other is all that is
> required.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter, you should also remember to start
> your
> > > sail
> > > > > trimming with the
> > > > > headsail, get it close & then trim the
> mainsail.
> > > The
> > > > > two sails will interact
> > > > > & affect each other's trim settings. So, you
> > > have to
> > > > > keep trimming 1st one &
> > > > > then the other making fine adjustments. Most
> > > > > cruising sailers call the sail
> > > > > trim good enough after about one repetition
> of
> > > this
> > > > > procedure unless sailing
> > > > > conditions suddenly change drastically.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > 07 Jul 2001
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Also with your 175% genoa, you may find that
> you
> > > > > make better progress to
> > > > > windward if you sheet the headsail such that
> it
> > > is
> > > > > slightly off the spreader
> > > > > tip.  The 175% genoa is a very large
> headsail &
> > > it
> > > > > tends to backwind the
> > > > > mainsail if sheeted in too tightly.  This is
> > > > > especially a problem in the
> > > > > light air that the 175% genoa is normally
> used
> > > in.
> > > > > You can detect
> > > > > backwinding of your mainsail by watching the
> > > > > behavior of the leech telltales
> > > > > on your mainsail.  They should normally be
> > > streaming
> > > > > aft when everything
> > > > > else is trimmed properly.  If the mainsail
> leech
> > > > > telltales are fluttering or
> > > > > drooping when everything else is apparently
> > > trimmed
> > > > > properly; then, try
> > > > > letting off the genoa sheet until the
> mainsail
> > > leech
> > > > > telltales just stop
> > > > > drooping.  Optimise your jib car position
> for
> > > that
> > > > > genoa sheet setting & now
> > > > > you're beating to weather efficiently!
> > > > >
> > > > > I absolutely love my high tech bi-radial
> > > composite
> > > > > sailcloth genoa & fully
> > > > > battened roachy mainsail.  The acceleration
> in
> > > > > response to a puff of wind
> > > > > just sets you back into the seat & is
> completely
> > > > > additive!  Besides, when
> > > > > the sun is behind it & you can see the
> biradial
> > > > > panel design & construction
> > > > > in silouette, it just looks totally cool!
> > > > >
> > > > > 100 - 110 degree tacking angles are nothing
> to
> > > brag
> > > > > about.  On the other
> > > > > hand, a 70 degree tacking angle is
> approaching
> > > the
> > > > > performance of an
> > > > > America's Cup boat & is, therefore, a little
> > > hard to
> > > > > believe for a
> > > > > trailerable cruising boat with dacron sails.
> > > > > Tacking angles in the 80 - 90
> > > > > degree range are what's reasonable for our
> > > Rhodes
> > > > > 22's with OEM sails.
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > >
> > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "ed kroposki" <ekroposki at charter.net>
> > > > > To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'"
> > > > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:21 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's Sails
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fred:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are you going to replace the sacrificial
> > > canvass
> > > > > yourself or have a
> > > > > > loft or Sailcare fix it?  Or are you going
> buy
> > > a
> > > > > new sail?
> > > > > > That being said, my question that you
> never
> > > > > answered was do you have
> > > > > > a centerboard or diamond board.  But I
> think
> > > that
> > > > > you have answered the
> > > > > > question by telling us the condition of
> your
> > > > > Genny.  If you had a diamond
> > > > > > board, your sails should be newer and
> > > therefore
> > > > > not deteriorated.  So may
> > > > > I
> > > > > > conclude that you have a centerboard?
> > > > > > Does your boat have inside sheeting
> tracks,
> > > > > fairleads or cleats on
> > > > > > the outside cabin wall?  Since I have the
> > > inside
> > > > > tracks, I can adjust the
> > > > > > cars which have blocks to maintain leech
> > > tension
> > > > > on the 175.  I have
> > > > > > concluded that with the tracks, I can
> maintain
> > > > > better sail shape by
> > > > > > adjusting the cars to keep the leech tight
> and
> > > > > well angled when sheeting
> > > > > > inside.
> > > > > > Even with the sails outside, maybe the
> > > condition
> > > > > of the sails is a
> > > > > > big factor in your pointing.  The tighter
> I
> > > get my
> > > > > Genny, the better I
> > > > > > point, even at 175.  I have not figured
> out
> > > how to
> > > > > get the foot as tight
> > > > > as
> > > > > > the leech.  If I use a balance approach,
> the
> > > leech
> > > > > is not tight enough.  I
> > > > > > can see why those who race get the 'new'
> high
> > > tech
> > > > > sails.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > >
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > > > > Behalf Of
> > > > > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:02 PM
> > > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's
> pointing
> > > dog
> > > > > question
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought I answered your question and I
> don't
> > > > > recall asking one.  Since
> > > > > we
> > > > > > so misunderstand each other, we ought to
> have
> > > a
> > > > > political discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyway, today was God's late summer gift
> to
> > > > > boaters on Lake Erie--perfect
> > > > > > temperature and no bugs, perfect wind and
> no
> > > > > waves.  Yet even while I was
> > > > > so
> > > > > >
> > > > > > enraptured by His presence, I though of
> you,
> > > Ed.
> > > > > Rather, I was thinking of
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > question, or answer, or whatever.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Coming back to my home light, I was
> beating at
> > > > > about 4.5 knots.  The boat
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > pinching as hard as I could get her by
> > > tightening
> > > > > the back stays as much
> > > > > as
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > could and pulling the 175% genny to the
> end of
> > > the
> > > > > track.  The Autohelm
> > > > > was
> > > > > > locked to keep the tiller at midship,
> allowing
> > > the
> > > > > R22 to seek the highest
> > > > > > point into the wind.  The GPS showed her
> track
> > > > > varied 3-5 deg, which would
> > > > > > represent the variation in wind direction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, I didn't have the weight on
> > > board
> > > > > to keep the boat sailing
> > > > > on
> > > > > >
> > > > > > her lines because I was single handing and
> > > getting
> > > > > too old to sit on the
> > > > > > rail
> > > > > > comfortably.  So heel was between 10 and
> 20
> > > deg.
> > > > > Another problem is that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > leech edge of the canvas sun protection
> strip
> > > for
> > > > > my genny has rotted
> > > > > > allowing
> > > > > > the tension line to fly free.  (Got to
> wait
> > > for
> > > > > winter to fix that since I
> > > > > > have the GBI furler.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In clear air, I tacked three times through
> 100
> > > to
> > > > > 110 degrees.  That means
> > > > > I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > was sailing between 50 and 55 degrees off
> the
> > > > > wind.  With more ballast and
> > > > > a
> > > > > >
> > > > > > not-ratty head sail, I probably would have
> > > been
> > > > > closer to the theoretical
> > > > > 45
> > > > > >
> > > > > > deg.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does that answer your question?  (Oops,
> maybe
> > > > > we're back in the
> > > > > > question-question loop again.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fred
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a message dated 9/22/04 8:22:04 PM
> Eastern
> > > > > Daylight Time,
> > > > > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fred:
> > > > > > >   Thank you for still not answering my
> > > question
> > > > > while asking another.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >   Would it have been a question to which
> you
> > > do
> > > > > not know the answer?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >   Nevertheless, I will answer your
> question
> > > and
> > > > > that is I do not know
> > > > > > > the real answer to that question.  I
> just
> > > look
> > > > > at who has trouble
> > > > > pointing
> > > > > > > to the wind.  By asking the question,
> from
> > > those
> > > > > willing to respond, I
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > more information on which to make an
> > > opinion.  I
> > > > > also learn ways to
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > point to the wind.
> > > > > > >   I am not an experienced sailor.  I am
> a
> > > > > Saturday afternoon sailor
> > > > > > > who uses the wind to take him anywhere
> and
> > > > > nowhere in particular.
> > > > > > >   That being said, if the wind is fresh,
> I
> > > > > believe that if scientific
> > > > > > > instruments were used, when I set up for
> the
> > > > > wind, I can point less the
> > > > > 45
> > > > > > > degrees mentioned on this list recently.
>  In
> > > > > fact, when I try, I think
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > I can get closer to 35 degrees.
> > > > > > >   However, that is just a wild-eyed
> guess
> > > based
> > > > > on my Windex.  Last
> > > > > > > Saturday with the wind gusting to knock
> down
> > > > > power, I could not get
> > > > > that,
> > > > > > > but at that point the Genny was outside
> at
> > > about
> > > > > 100% and I was on final
> > > > > > > approach to the Marina.
> > > > > > >   And, if you read the post on this list
> you
> > > > > will learn how to push
> > > > > > > the envelope.
> > > > > > >   Now tell us, does your dog point?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed K
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > >
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> > > On
> > > > > Behalf Of
> > > > > > > SVGravityLeak at aol.com
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004
> 11:46 AM
> > > > > > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Fred's
> pointing
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I thought the diamond board was better
> > > because
> > > > > of the more forward
> > > > > weight
> > > > > > > distribution.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fred
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In a message dated 9/21/04 5:53:51 PM
> > > Eastern
> > > > > Daylight Time,
> > > > > > > ekroposki at charter.net writes:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list]Fred's
> Hunter
> > > IMF
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Fred:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Is it a secret?  Because I think that
> R22's
> > > > > with a centerboard like
> > > > > mine
> > > > > > > >point better than those with a diamond
> > > board.
> > > > > But so far this just a
> > > > > > > guess
> > > > > > > >or opinion.  Now answer the question,
> > > pretty
> > > > > please.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Ed K
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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