[Rhodes22-list] Q & A (was Stans Lament 2)
Todd Tavares
sprocket80 at mail.com
Sun Aug 28 22:56:59 EDT 2005
> > So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> > people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> > ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template.
This is really a non-discussion, because no person here is advocating
going out and manufacturing and selling replacement parts or accessories for
the R22. This new question, and Stan's original supposition upon which is it based, suggests doing something that goes against the grain of the American way (paying Stan anytime someone sells their boat after-market or fabricates a replacement part for their boat).
Stan lamented because he spends too much time talking to people on the phone, mailing out information trying to get sales, and going to boat shows only to
find out that the prospective buyer he sent here or found the now removed link on his website, bought a boat from one of us. Stan wanted to find a way to get paid for referring these used buyers to the list. He got several suggestions to increase his profits. As far as getting paid for referring people to the list, he did the only logical thing by removing the link from his website. Stan obviously understands capitalism and how to run a business. I think he was partly just introducing a topic...a sure to be controversial topic...to see what shook out. Now we have started to see the extremes.
> If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his time
> and trouble?
> Of course, this is all on the honor system. Stan never patented or
> copyrighted his work. But we are honorable people. Is this the right
> thing to do?
It is inferred; but under the guise of being just an innocent question, that if we fix it, re-build it or make it ourselves, Stan should get a royalty. And if we don't send Stan a check......since it would all be "on the honor system", anyone who does not agree and/or send a check to Edenton is less that honorable. There are some of us here who, for our own reasons, choose to buy used and fix it up. Is it the concensus of the list, that anyone who bought used, or makes their own parts should pay Stan or be considered honorless? This whole concept and thread is (expletive deleted). Geez, no wonder why Roger unsubscibed.
> I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's. If you
> make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and error,
> I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
> I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> Stan's cushions as a template.
Cockpit cushions? Come on fella' it's not rocket science.
> You may think I'm a crackpot.
> Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others think.
You really wouldn't.
Todd (Tavares)
P.S. Riddle me this Boatman....
What about the two boats that I did the leg work trying to buy, only to mention it
on the list and have GB buy the boats out from me? I am not holding my breath, but where is my percentage of the profits that GB made on the recycles?
See how ridiculous this whole question/debate has become?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:31:31 -0400
>
> Wally,
>
> This entire extended thread works off Stan's Lament posted previously.
>
> As I understood what Stan said, he was lamenting the fact that it hurts
> him, both psychologically and materially, when people pick his brains
> and then work around him to buy his product from someone else without
> ever compensating him for all the time and effort he has put into the deal.
>
> Stan put forth the idea of paying him a commission for boat resales,
> even if he had no direct part in the deal. Many people said they
> thought that was a good idea, but none of the people who thought it was
> a good idea were actually selling a boat. Everyone thought it was a
> good idea for someone else to send Stan money for doing nothing.
>
> Then someone had an idea of writing a book, and instead of making money
> on the book, letting Stan get the money because the book was about
> Stan's boat.
>
> Brad suggested that maybe we could outsource some of Stan's
> non-essential parts to China so Stan could sell more of these
> accessories, have less direct responsibility for their manufacture, and
> make the same amount on every item sold.
>
> So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template. Should Stan get a
> royalty on these things? Your Boom Room is not a copy of Stan's Boom
> Room. It performs the same function. It works for you. You and Roger
> spent time working it out. If I copy your idea, should I send you
> something for your time and trouble? Would you have had the idea for a
> Boom Room if you never saw Stan's?
>
> If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his time
> and trouble?
>
> Of course, this is all on the honor system. Stan never patented or
> copyrighted his work. But we are honorable people. Is this the right
> thing to do?
>
> The guy who patented the intermittent windshield wiper died a multi
> millionaire after suing virtually every automobile maker in world for
> infringing on his patent by developing and deploying their own
> intermittent windshield wipers.
>
> I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> Stan's cushions as a template. You are not even thinking of trying
> this. I'm sure Stan didn't come up with the right specs the first time,
> either. Should you pay a royalty for the work you copy? In the
> computer field you are constantly paying royalties to copy things you
> could copy and use for nothing. Why doesn't this extend to boats?
>
> I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's. If you
> make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and error,
> I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
>
> I think this is Stan's lament. It is shared by many creative pioneers,
> and often sinks their businesses. After they figure things out, make
> prototypes, develop manufacturing, finance inventory, etc. somebody else
> comes along and says "I can copy that for less than you are willing to
> sell it to me."
>
> How do we feel about Stan's Lament when it directly impacts our own
> costs? Are we willing to send money to Stan for knocking off his
> designs--even if we are only doing it for our own boat? Did you buy
> your cushions from Stan originally, or did you buy them from someone
> else, and now that they have worn out you want to knock off Stan's
> design and rebuild them yourself?
>
> Apparently everyone takes this question as a personal attack. It is
> meant as a philosophical question. For my part, I am willing to pay
> full price for Stan's boom room and use my boom room to make more booms
> rooms that can be sold at a lower price to other people on this list
> provided that Stan makes at least as much money as he would have otherwise.
>
> I do not always behave this way, but I happen to like this man, and I
> happen to like his product. What do you think? I will not judge you
> depending on how you answer. You may think I'm a crackpot. You may
> think my philosophical question is fine theoretically, but that you need
> to save money and you can do so by copying Stan's design instead of
> buying the cushions from Stan, or asking to buy a set of plans from him.
>
> I can understand these answers to my question. But I think these are
> the questions Stan is asking of the entire list, and I think the
> questions deserve a response. Failing to get that response, I can also
> understand why Stan would decide to pull the plug on our list to make it
> more difficult for people to spread the knowledge Stan has given us for
> nothing to people who think it is OK to use that knowledge to deprive
> Stan of the ability to make money on his own products.
>
> Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others think.
>
> Bill Effros
>
>
>
> Wally Buck wrote:
>
> > Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about? I thought your
> > crazy scheme had Stan selling the Chinese parts? Are you still
> > talking about cushions? Anne and others gave the GB cushions 2
> > thumbs up. I have already gotten pricing from Stan and I am
> > considering purchase verse homemade. Are you suggesting that one
> > should not make their own replacement cushions.....Are you the
> > riddler? :-) Serioulsy Bill you have lost me.
> >
> > Stan and GB have no worries from me. Not much chance i will be
> > making R22 cushions for resale.
> >
> > Wally
> >
> >
> >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:04:30 -0400
> >>
> >> Wally,
> >>
> >> I interpreted Stan's Lament as a plea to get something for his
> >> troubles (read "intellectual property"). When it came to
> >> selling the boat off-list, everyone said sure, they thought
> >> other people should send Stan 5%.
> >>
> >> What about copying his designs? Should Stan get 5% of his list
> >> price when people use his designs as a template and make them
> >> for themselves?
> >>
> >> I think we know each other well enough for you to know I do not
> >> intend this as a personal attack on you. (Nor did I intend to
> >> attack Todd, Lou, Roger, Alan, or any of the other people on
> >> this list who have used Stan's designs as a template and not
> >> compensated Stan.)
> >>
> >> I ask you this question as an honest inquiry to a lament posted
> >> by Stan, and I ask you to think about it.
> >>
> >> This is not an easy questions, and I am not "Mr. Clean" on this
> >> issue. I steal intellectual property from others--just not from
> >> Stan.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bill, Thanks for your response. To clarify. I have cushions in
> >>> cockpit now but they are shot. I do like the folding chairs but
> >>> I would rather put that money toward new cushions.
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering if you added all of these other seating devices
> >>> because the cushions were uncomfortable. Your first description
> >>> of seating arrangements didn't mention comfort of cockpit
> >>> cushions alone. Your solution would have me purchasing 2
> >>> Captains Chairs, 2 bean bag chairs, and 2 folding chairs from
> >>> West along with all new cockpit cushions. That is not an option.
> >>>
> >>> i like an uncluttered cockpit as well as uncluttered cabin.
> >>> Anne says her GB cushions are comfortable so that answered my
> >>> question. :-)
> >>>
> >>> Wally
> >>>
> >>> Lawn is mowed - NOW I am off to lake!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:49:00 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>> Wally,
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess I never even considered sailing without cushions on
> >>>> the fiberglass benches. Even though I frequently sail single
> >>>> handed, and always sail from Captain's Seats, I always put out
> >>>> Stan's cushions--every single time. They are part of the
> >>>> boat, as far as I'm concerned. I think the proportions of
> >>>> everything are better for sailing when the cushions are in
> >>>> place. Also, as noted previously, I don't bang myself up as
> >>>> much with the cushions protecting me from harder surfaces.
> >>>>
> >>>> I only sit on the cushions when hove-to, or at anchor, and I
> >>>> guess they are comfortable, enough. But they are not as
> >>>> comfortable as the cushions with bean bag chairs on top of
> >>>> them, or the cushions with "Elton's" folding seats on top of
> >>>> them. (I never put the bean bag chairs or folding seats
> >>>> directly on the fiberglass benches--that is not as comfortable
> >>>> as Stan's cushions alone.)
> >>>>
> >>>> When guests come aboard my boat they always marvel at how
> >>>> comfortable they all are--not just the person who grabs the
> >>>> other Captain's seat. My boat has 6 comfortable seats while
> >>>> sailing. They are all based on putting Stan's cockpit
> >>>> cushions over the hard benches. Since I sail the boat
> >>>> upright, people do not shift back and forth every time I tack.
> >>>> They find a comfortable seat, and stay in it for the entire
> >>>> ride.
> >>>>
> >>>> My cockpit, with Stan's cushions and my additional seats, is
> >>>> more comfortable for all of the passengers and crew than any
> >>>> other boat I've ever been in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>
> >>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I would be using Stan's cockpit cushions for seating. Are
> >>>>> they confortable?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:37:29 -0400
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have Stan's cockpit cushions. I almost never sit directly
> >>>>>> on them. I generally sit in a captain's chair, with my feet
> >>>>>> on the cushions. I also have 2 folding seats (available
> >>>>>> from West for around $50), and 2 beanbag chairs purchased
> >>>>>> from the beanbag lady at a boat show for around $75 each.
> >>>>>> All 6 seats can be comfortably deployed simultaneously.
> >>>>>> Each seat is more comfortable than any seat that comes
> >>>>>> standard in any sailboat I've ever been on.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stan's cushions fit perfectly, and have proved very durable.
> >>>>>> They are 7 years old and still look brand new. I store
> >>>>>> them (along with all the other seats) on the settee when
> >>>>>> not in use. I put them out immediately every time I go on
> >>>>>> board. This takes around 14 seconds. I like them for
> >>>>>> kneeling when I am pulling in anchors or putting out
> >>>>>> fenders. Every now and again I kneel to do something after
> >>>>>> I have put away the cushions. Boy those seats are hard!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bill, It is hard to guess what I would want to spend. You
> >>>>>>> need to determine production and shipping costs. From there
> >>>>>>> add the desired mark up. That is the price. I am sure GB
> >>>>>>> does not want to carry large cost for inventory. I would
> >>>>>>> suspect that prices could be quoted for different sizes.
> >>>>>>> Get quotes for 5, 10 25, each. I have no idea who to go to
> >>>>>>> for "quotes" in China but it sounds like there might be
> >>>>>>> folks on this list that do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Initially I would want new cockpit cushions with fill in.
> >>>>>>> Also cabin cushions. I am considering doing this myself. I
> >>>>>>> am also getting price locally. One drawbck to doing them
> >>>>>>> myself is the most likely will look like crap. Having them
> >>>>>>> done locally means I can test foam and not pay shipping.
> >>>>>>> Ordering from GB means they will fit right but I don't want
> >>>>>>> standard foam. In the cabin I want to go with 3 inches of
> >>>>>>> foam with 1 inch of memory foam glued on top side. I have
> >>>>>>> seen cushions made this way and they are great for sleeping
> >>>>>>> and sitting. I am still working on best foam for cockpit
> >>>>>>> (with fill in).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:02:44 -0400
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Can you put numbers on your desires? I mean this quite
> >>>>>>>> seriously. I know you use your boat, and I know you want
> >>>>>>>> to be fair to Stan. At what price would you buy various
> >>>>>>>> items from Stan? Which items would you be most interested
> >>>>>>>> in? What would you be willing to pay? You will not be
> >>>>>>>> held to any of this--it is just part of an exercise to see
> >>>>>>>> if what we all want can be done.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If you are asking me if I have a problem purchasing
> >>>>>>>>> Chinese made boat parts from Stan ....If I place my order
> >>>>>>>>> and send payment to Stan the source doesn't concern me
> >>>>>>>>> too much. I would prefer to buy "USA" but I have owned
> >>>>>>>>> many imported cars.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You also asked if price is holding me back from
> >>>>>>>>> purchasing boat goodies from GB. The answer is yes. I
> >>>>>>>>> would love to have new cabin cushions, new cockpit
> >>>>>>>>> cushions, cokcpit fill-in cushions, pop-top enclosure,
> >>>>>>>>> bimini. The boom room really doesn't interest me. We
> >>>>>>>>> overnight quite a bit. If it is stormy we go in cabin. If
> >>>>>>>>> it is nice we like the view from cockpit. We also swim
> >>>>>>>>> and fish. I am trying to decide if I should spend the
> >>>>>>>>> money on my R22 or perhaps sell and use the cash from all
> >>>>>>>>> of those upgrades for .......
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I forgot, add the battened IMF to my wish list as well.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: R22 List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:21:37 -0400
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett emailed me off-list regarding our
> >>>>>>>>>> discussion of boom rooms, etc. which he has been
> >>>>>>>>>> following while vacationing in China.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad asked if anyone would have an interest in his
> >>>>>>>>>> exploring Chinese manufacture of Boom Rooms, Sails,
> >>>>>>>>>> Pop-Top Enclosures, Cockpit and Cabin Cushions, Cockpit
> >>>>>>>>>> Fill in Boards, -- all the little stuff the Chinese can
> >>>>>>>>>> make for a fraction of what it costs to manufacture in
> >>>>>>>>>> the US.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have not asked Stan about this, and I don't think Brad
> >>>>>>>>>> has either, however it goes without saying that if Stan
> >>>>>>>>>> doesn't like the idea, Brad is not going to do it. Stan
> >>>>>>>>>> would make money on every item made in China, and
> >>>>>>>>>> whatever he says is his cut, that's what he'll get.
> >>>>>>>>>> There will be no negotiation on this.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But before he even begins the project, Brad wants to
> >>>>>>>>>> know how the ultimate consumers feel about this idea.
> >>>>>>>>>> If Brad can set up manufacturing in China with Stan's
> >>>>>>>>>> approval, would Rhodes owners buy the Chinese made
> >>>>>>>>>> products?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Stan would have to provide the original patterns and
> >>>>>>>>>> specifications, but that is all Stan would have to do.
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad believes he can set up a reliable manufacturing
> >>>>>>>>>> operation in China that will produce any of these
> >>>>>>>>>> products to Stan's satisfaction at a lower cost than
> >>>>>>>>>> Stan can get them produced in the US.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 5 of us indicated an interest in Boom Rooms. Me, Chris,
> >>>>>>>>>> Dave, Bruce, and maybe Bob. (Did I miss anyone?) I
> >>>>>>>>>> would be willing to be the guinea pig on this. How do
> >>>>>>>>>> the rest of you feel? Bob, if we could bring the price
> >>>>>>>>>> down, at what price would you be a player?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What about people who want Pop Top Enclosures, or
> >>>>>>>>>> Battened IMF sails, or cockpit fill in cushions? Is
> >>>>>>>>>> there a price for these items that would prompt you to
> >>>>>>>>>> take money out of your pocket and put it on the table?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Look at Stan's options prices on his web site
> >>>>>>>>>> (http://www.rhodes22.com/super_options.html). Is there
> >>>>>>>>>> something you would actually buy if the price were
> >>>>>>>>>> lower? If so, what would the price have to be?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brad is returning to the US shortly, and doesn't have
> >>>>>>>>>> much time to see if he can set up something like this.
> >>>>>>>>>> If you think this is a terrible idea, please speak up
> >>>>>>>>>> quickly so we all know where we stand.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I think this is an interesting idea if Brad can actually
> >>>>>>>>>> do it. It is something we can all do to put more money
> >>>>>>>>>> in Stan's pocket right away, while buying parts for our
> >>>>>>>>>> boats at a lower cost. It's a win-win...if Brad can
> >>>>>>>>>> pull it off.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please note. Brad is a commercial airline pilot who no
> >>>>>>>>>> longer owns a Rhodes 22. There is nothing in this deal
> >>>>>>>>>> for him. He will always make more money flying an
> >>>>>>>>>> airplane than getting involved in a crazy sailboat spare
> >>>>>>>>>> parts Chinese manufacturing scheme. He just happens to
> >>>>>>>>>> be in China right now, saw Stan's Lament, and asked if
> >>>>>>>>>> there was anything he could do to help.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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