[Rhodes22-list] Q & A (was Stans Lament 2)

[Wally Buck]

Todd, Thanks. I could not agree more.

Wally


>From: "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80 at mail.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Q & A (was Stans Lament 2)
>Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:56:59 -0500
>
>
>
> > > So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> > > people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> > > ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template.
>
>     This is really a non-discussion, because no person here is advocating
>going out and manufacturing and selling replacement parts or accessories 
>for
>the R22.  This new question, and Stan's original supposition upon which is 
>it based, suggests doing something that goes against the grain of the 
>American way (paying Stan anytime someone sells their boat after-market or 
>fabricates a replacement part for their boat).
>
>   Stan lamented because he spends too much time talking to people on the 
>phone, mailing out information trying to get sales, and going to boat shows 
>only to
>find out that the prospective buyer he sent here or found the now removed 
>link on his website, bought a boat from one of us.  Stan wanted to find a 
>way to get paid for referring these used buyers to the list.  He got 
>several suggestions to increase his profits.  As far as getting paid for 
>referring people to the list, he did the only logical thing by removing the 
>link from his website.  Stan obviously understands capitalism and how to 
>run a business.  I think he was partly just introducing a topic...a sure to 
>be controversial topic...to see what shook out.  Now we have started to see 
>the extremes.
>
>
> > If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his time
> > and trouble?
>
> > Of course, this is all on the honor system.  Stan never patented or
> > copyrighted his work.  But we are honorable people.  Is this the right
> > thing to do?
>
>      It is inferred; but under the guise of being just an innocent 
>question, that if we fix it, re-build it or make it ourselves, Stan should 
>get a royalty.  And if we don't send Stan a check......since it would all 
>be "on the honor system", anyone who does not agree and/or send a check to 
>Edenton is less that honorable.    There are some of us here who, for our 
>own reasons, choose to buy used and fix it up.  Is it the concensus of the 
>list, that anyone who bought used, or makes their own parts should pay Stan 
>or be considered honorless?  This whole concept and thread is (expletive 
>deleted). Geez, no wonder why Roger unsubscibed.
>
> > I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> > perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> > cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's.  If you
> > make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and error,
> > I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> > cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
>
> > I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> > right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> > Stan's cushions as a template.
>
>   Cockpit cushions?  Come on fella' it's not rocket science.
>
> > You may think I'm a crackpot.
>
> > Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others think.
>
>    You really wouldn't.
>
>
>
>Todd (Tavares)
>
>P.S.  Riddle me this Boatman....
>   What about the two boats that I did the leg work trying to buy, only to 
>mention it
>on the list and have GB buy the boats out from me?  I am not holding my 
>breath, but where is my percentage of the profits that GB made on the 
>recycles?
>   See how ridiculous this whole question/debate has become?
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:31:31 -0400
>
> >
> > Wally,
> >
> > This entire extended thread works off Stan's Lament posted previously.
> >
> > As I understood what Stan said, he was lamenting the fact that it hurts
> > him, both psychologically and materially, when people pick his brains
> > and then work around him to buy his product from someone else without
> > ever compensating him for all the time and effort he has put into the 
>deal.
> >
> > Stan put forth the idea of paying him a commission for boat resales,
> > even if he had no direct part in the deal.  Many people said they
> > thought that was a good idea, but none of the people who thought it was
> > a good idea were actually selling a boat.  Everyone thought it was a
> > good idea for someone else to send Stan money for doing nothing.
> >
> > Then someone had an idea of writing a book, and instead of making money
> > on the book, letting Stan get the money because the book was about
> > Stan's boat.
> >
> > Brad suggested that maybe we could outsource some of Stan's
> > non-essential parts to China so Stan could sell more of these
> > accessories, have less direct responsibility for their manufacture, and
> > make the same amount on every item sold.
> >
> > So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> > people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> > ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template.  Should Stan get a
> > royalty on these things?  Your Boom Room is not a copy of Stan's Boom
> > Room.  It performs the same function.  It works for you.  You and Roger
> > spent time working it out.  If I copy your idea, should I send you
> > something for your time and trouble?  Would you have had the idea for a
> > Boom Room if you never saw Stan's?
> >
> > If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his time
> > and trouble?
> >
> > Of course, this is all on the honor system.  Stan never patented or
> > copyrighted his work.  But we are honorable people.  Is this the right
> > thing to do?
> >
> > The guy who patented the intermittent windshield wiper died a multi
> > millionaire after suing virtually every automobile maker in world for
> > infringing on his patent by developing and deploying their own
> > intermittent windshield wipers.
> >
> > I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> > right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> > Stan's cushions as a template.  You are not even thinking of trying
> > this.  I'm sure Stan didn't come up with the right specs the first time,
> > either.  Should you pay a royalty for the work you copy?  In the
> > computer field you are constantly paying royalties to copy things you
> > could copy and use for nothing.  Why doesn't this extend to boats?
> >
> > I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> > perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> > cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's.  If you
> > make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and error,
> > I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> > cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
> >
> > I think this is Stan's lament.  It is shared by many creative pioneers,
> > and often sinks their businesses.  After they figure things out, make
> > prototypes, develop manufacturing, finance inventory, etc. somebody else
> > comes along and says "I can copy that for less than you are willing to
> > sell it to me."
> >
> > How do we feel about Stan's Lament when it directly impacts our own
> > costs?  Are we willing to send money to Stan for knocking off his
> > designs--even if we are only doing it for our own boat?  Did you buy
> > your cushions from Stan originally, or did you buy them from someone
> > else, and now that they have worn out you want to knock off Stan's
> > design and rebuild them yourself?
> >
> > Apparently everyone takes this question as a personal attack.  It is
> > meant as a philosophical question.  For my part, I am willing to pay
> > full price for Stan's boom room and use my boom room to make more booms
> > rooms that can be sold at a lower price to other people on this list
> > provided that Stan makes at least as much money as he would have 
>otherwise.
> >
> > I do not always behave this way, but I happen to like this man, and I
> > happen to like his product.  What do you think?  I will not judge you
> > depending on how you answer.  You may think I'm a crackpot.  You may
> > think my philosophical question is fine theoretically, but that you need
> > to save money and you can do so by copying Stan's design instead of
> > buying the cushions from Stan, or asking to buy a set of plans from him.
> >
> > I can understand these answers to my question.  But I think these are
> > the questions Stan is asking of the entire list, and I think the
> > questions deserve a response.  Failing to get that response, I can also
> > understand why Stan would decide to pull the plug on our list to make it
> > more difficult for people to spread the knowledge Stan has given us for
> > nothing to people who think it is OK to use that knowledge to deprive
> > Stan of the ability to make money on his own products.
> >
> > Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others think.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> >
> >
> > Wally Buck wrote:
> >
> > > Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about? I thought your
> > > crazy scheme had Stan selling the Chinese parts? Are you still
> > > talking about cushions? Anne and others gave the GB cushions 2
> > > thumbs up. I have already gotten pricing from Stan and I am
> > > considering purchase verse homemade. Are you suggesting that one
> > > should not make their own replacement cushions.....Are you the
> > > riddler? :-)  Serioulsy Bill you have lost me.
> > >
> > > Stan and GB have no worries from me. Not much chance i will be
> > > making R22 cushions for resale.
> > >
> > > Wally
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:04:30 -0400
> > >>
> > >> Wally,
> > >>
> > >> I interpreted Stan's Lament as a plea to get something for his
> > >> troubles (read "intellectual property").  When it came to
> > >> selling the boat off-list, everyone said sure, they thought
> > >> other people should send Stan 5%.
> > >>
> > >> What about copying his designs?  Should Stan get 5% of his list
> > >> price when people use his designs as a template and make them
> > >> for themselves?
> > >>
> > >> I think we know each other well enough for you to know I do not
> > >> intend this as a personal attack on you.  (Nor did I intend to
> > >> attack Todd, Lou, Roger, Alan, or any of the other people on
> > >> this list who have used Stan's designs as a template and not
> > >> compensated Stan.)
> > >>
> > >> I ask you this question as an honest inquiry to a lament posted
> > >> by Stan, and I ask you to think about it.
> > >>
> > >> This is not an easy questions, and I am not "Mr. Clean" on this
> > >> issue.  I steal intellectual property from others--just not from
> > >> Stan.
> > >>
> > >> Bill Effros
> > >>
> > >> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Bill, Thanks for your response. To clarify. I have cushions in
> > >>> cockpit now but they are shot. I do like the folding chairs but
> > >>> I would rather put that money toward new cushions.
> > >>>
> > >>> I was wondering if you added all of these other seating devices
> > >>> because the cushions were uncomfortable. Your first description
> > >>> of seating arrangements didn't mention comfort of cockpit
> > >>> cushions alone. Your solution would have me purchasing 2
> > >>> Captains Chairs, 2 bean bag chairs, and 2 folding chairs from
> > >>> West along with all new cockpit cushions. That is not an option.
> > >>>
> > >>> i like an uncluttered cockpit as well as uncluttered cabin.
> > >>> Anne says her GB cushions are comfortable so that answered my
> > >>> question. :-)
> > >>>
> > >>> Wally
> > >>>
> > >>> Lawn is mowed - NOW I am off to lake!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:49:00 -0400
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wally,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess I never even considered sailing without cushions on
> > >>>> the fiberglass benches.  Even though I frequently sail single
> > >>>> handed, and always sail from Captain's Seats, I always put out
> > >>>> Stan's cushions--every single time.  They are part of the
> > >>>> boat, as far as I'm concerned.  I think the proportions of
> > >>>> everything are better for sailing when the cushions are in
> > >>>> place.  Also, as noted previously, I don't bang myself up as
> > >>>> much with the cushions protecting me from harder surfaces.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I only sit on the cushions when hove-to, or at anchor, and I
> > >>>> guess they are comfortable, enough.  But they are not as
> > >>>> comfortable as the cushions with bean bag chairs on top of
> > >>>> them, or the cushions with "Elton's" folding seats on top of
> > >>>> them.  (I never put the bean bag chairs or folding seats
> > >>>> directly on the fiberglass benches--that is not as comfortable
> > >>>> as Stan's cushions alone.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When guests come aboard my boat they always marvel at how
> > >>>> comfortable they all are--not just the person who grabs the
> > >>>> other Captain's seat.  My boat has 6 comfortable seats while
> > >>>> sailing.  They are all based on putting Stan's cockpit
> > >>>> cushions over the hard benches.  Since I sail the boat
> > >>>> upright, people do not shift back and forth every time I tack.
> > >>>>  They find a comfortable seat, and stay in it for the entire
> > >>>> ride.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My cockpit, with Stan's cushions and my additional seats, is
> > >>>> more comfortable for all of the passengers and crew than any
> > >>>> other boat I've ever been in.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I would be using Stan's cockpit cushions for seating. Are
> > >>>>> they confortable?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > >>>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:37:29 -0400
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Wally,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have Stan's cockpit cushions.  I almost never sit directly
> > >>>>>> on them.  I generally sit in a captain's chair, with my feet
> > >>>>>> on the cushions.  I also have 2 folding seats (available
> > >>>>>> from West for around $50), and 2 beanbag chairs purchased
> > >>>>>> from the beanbag lady at a boat show for around $75 each.
> > >>>>>> All 6 seats can be comfortably deployed simultaneously.
> > >>>>>> Each seat is more comfortable than any seat that comes
> > >>>>>> standard in any sailboat I've ever been on.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Stan's cushions fit perfectly, and have proved very durable.
> > >>>>>>  They are 7 years old and still look brand new.  I store
> > >>>>>> them  (along with all the other seats) on the settee when
> > >>>>>> not in use.  I put them out immediately every time I go on
> > >>>>>> board.  This takes around 14 seconds.  I like them for
> > >>>>>> kneeling when I am pulling in anchors or putting out
> > >>>>>> fenders.  Every now and again I kneel to do something after
> > >>>>>> I have put away the cushions.  Boy those seats are hard!
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Bill, It is hard to guess what I would want to spend. You
> > >>>>>>> need to determine production and shipping costs. From there
> > >>>>>>> add the desired mark up. That is the price. I am sure GB
> > >>>>>>> does not want to carry large cost for inventory. I would
> > >>>>>>> suspect that prices could be quoted for different sizes.
> > >>>>>>> Get quotes for 5, 10 25, each.  I have no idea who to go to
> > >>>>>>> for "quotes" in China but it sounds like there might be
> > >>>>>>> folks on this list that do.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Initially I would want new cockpit cushions with fill in.
> > >>>>>>> Also cabin cushions. I am considering doing this myself. I
> > >>>>>>> am also getting price locally. One drawbck to doing them
> > >>>>>>> myself is the most likely will look like crap. Having them
> > >>>>>>> done locally means I can test foam and not pay shipping.
> > >>>>>>> Ordering from GB means they will fit right but I don't want
> > >>>>>>> standard foam. In the cabin I want to go with 3 inches of
> > >>>>>>> foam with 1 inch of memory foam glued on top side. I have
> > >>>>>>> seen cushions made this way and they are great for sleeping
> > >>>>>>> and sitting. I am still working on best foam for cockpit
> > >>>>>>> (with fill in).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> > >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:02:44 -0400
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wally,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Can you put numbers on your desires?  I mean this quite
> > >>>>>>>> seriously.  I know you use your boat, and I know you want
> > >>>>>>>> to be fair to Stan.  At what price would you buy various
> > >>>>>>>> items from Stan?  Which items would you be most interested
> > >>>>>>>> in?  What would you be willing to pay?  You will not be
> > >>>>>>>> held to any of this--it is just part of an exercise to see
> > >>>>>>>> if what we all want can be done.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> If you are asking me if I have a problem purchasing
> > >>>>>>>>> Chinese made boat parts from Stan ....If I place my order
> > >>>>>>>>> and send payment to Stan the source doesn't concern me
> > >>>>>>>>> too much. I would prefer to buy "USA" but I have owned
> > >>>>>>>>> many imported cars.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> You also asked if price is holding me back from
> > >>>>>>>>> purchasing boat goodies from GB. The answer is yes. I
> > >>>>>>>>> would love to have new cabin cushions, new cockpit
> > >>>>>>>>> cushions, cokcpit fill-in cushions, pop-top enclosure,
> > >>>>>>>>> bimini. The boom room really doesn't interest me. We
> > >>>>>>>>> overnight quite a bit. If it is stormy we go in cabin. If
> > >>>>>>>>> it is nice we like the view from cockpit. We also swim
> > >>>>>>>>> and fish.  I am trying to decide if I should spend the
> > >>>>>>>>> money on my R22 or perhaps sell and use the cash from all
> > >>>>>>>>> of those upgrades for .......
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I forgot, add the battened IMF to my wish  list as well.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list 
><rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> To: R22 List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:21:37 -0400
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett emailed me off-list regarding our
> > >>>>>>>>>> discussion of boom rooms, etc. which he has been
> > >>>>>>>>>> following while vacationing in China.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad asked if anyone would have an interest in his
> > >>>>>>>>>> exploring Chinese manufacture of Boom Rooms, Sails,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Pop-Top Enclosures, Cockpit and Cabin Cushions, Cockpit
> > >>>>>>>>>> Fill in Boards, -- all the little stuff the Chinese can
> > >>>>>>>>>> make for a fraction of what it costs to manufacture in
> > >>>>>>>>>> the US.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I have not asked Stan about this, and I don't think Brad
> > >>>>>>>>>> has either, however it goes without saying that if Stan
> > >>>>>>>>>> doesn't like the idea, Brad is not going to do it.  Stan
> > >>>>>>>>>> would make money on every item made in China, and
> > >>>>>>>>>> whatever he says is his cut, that's what he'll get.
> > >>>>>>>>>> There will be no negotiation on this.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> But before he even begins the project, Brad wants to
> > >>>>>>>>>> know how the ultimate consumers feel about this idea.
> > >>>>>>>>>> If Brad can set up manufacturing in China with Stan's
> > >>>>>>>>>> approval, would Rhodes owners buy the Chinese made
> > >>>>>>>>>> products?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Stan would have to provide the original patterns and
> > >>>>>>>>>> specifications, but that is all Stan would have to do.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad believes he can set up a reliable manufacturing
> > >>>>>>>>>> operation in China that will produce any of these
> > >>>>>>>>>> products to Stan's satisfaction at a lower cost than
> > >>>>>>>>>> Stan can get them produced in the US.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> 5 of us indicated an interest in Boom Rooms.  Me, Chris,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Dave, Bruce, and maybe Bob.  (Did I miss anyone?)  I
> > >>>>>>>>>> would be willing to be the guinea pig on this. How do
> > >>>>>>>>>> the rest of you feel?  Bob, if we could bring the price
> > >>>>>>>>>> down, at what price would you be a player?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> What about people who want Pop Top Enclosures, or
> > >>>>>>>>>> Battened IMF sails, or cockpit fill in cushions?  Is
> > >>>>>>>>>> there a price for these items that would prompt you to
> > >>>>>>>>>> take money out of your pocket and put it on the table?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Look at Stan's options prices on his web site
> > >>>>>>>>>> (http://www.rhodes22.com/super_options.html).  Is there
> > >>>>>>>>>> something you would actually buy if the price were
> > >>>>>>>>>> lower?  If so, what would the price have to be?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Brad is returning to the US shortly, and doesn't have
> > >>>>>>>>>> much time to see if he can set up something like this.
> > >>>>>>>>>> If you think this is a terrible idea, please speak up
> > >>>>>>>>>> quickly so we all know where we stand.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I think this is an interesting idea if Brad can actually
> > >>>>>>>>>> do it.  It is something we can all do to put more money
> > >>>>>>>>>> in Stan's pocket right away, while buying parts for our
> > >>>>>>>>>> boats at a lower cost.  It's a win-win...if Brad can
> > >>>>>>>>>> pull it off.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Please note.  Brad is a commercial airline pilot who no
> > >>>>>>>>>> longer owns a Rhodes 22.  There is nothing in this deal
> > >>>>>>>>>> for him.  He will always make more money flying an
> > >>>>>>>>>> airplane than getting involved in a crazy sailboat spare
> > >>>>>>>>>> parts Chinese manufacturing scheme.  He just happens to
> > >>>>>>>>>> be in China right now, saw Stan's Lament, and asked if
> > >>>>>>>>>> there was anything he could do to help.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> __________________________________________________
> > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> __________________________________________________
> > >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>
> > >> __________________________________________________
> > >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>
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