[Rhodes22-list] Spam Filter

Bill Effros bill at effros.com
Sat Jan 8 13:06:00 EST 2005


Roger,

My spam filter is identifying your hydrogen economy email as spam and 
throwing it out as junk.  No one else's on this topic.  No one else on 
this list.  Not you on other topics.

I mention it only because spam filters can throw out stuff people might 
want to see, and things senders think they may have.  I don't know what 
factors conspired to trigger the filter, I just thought you should know.

Bill Effros

Roger Pihlaja wrote:

>Lou,
>
>Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe.  A typical star, like
>the sun, consumes about 600E6 metric tons of hydrogen/sec in fusion nuclear
>reactions just to keep itself lit up.  But, hydrogen is so reactive, it
>doesn't exist as free hydrogen gas anywhere on earth.  Instead, it's always
>combined with other elements like oxygen to make water or carbon, nitrogen,
>and oxygen to make any of millions of organic compounds.  So, you need to
>think of hydrogen as an energy carrier, not an energy source.  Some other
>source of energy must be used to produce hydrogen from a resource like water
>or one of the fossil fuels (i.e. coal, crude oil, or natural gas).  Then,
>the hydrogen can be transported and stored and the energy can be released
>later, just like a battery.  The trouble is, when you burn fossil fuels to
>make electricity and then use that electricity to make hydrogen from water,
>every step in the process adds some inefficiency and produces greenhouse
>gases like carbon dioxide.  The same is true if you catalytically reform
>fossil fuels to make hydrogen directly.  The process is not completely
>efficient and the carbon atoms in the fossil fuels do not simply disappear.
>Instead, they turn into greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and you end up
>polluting just as much as if you had simply burned the fossil fuel in your
>car.  So, even though the exhaust pipe in your futuristic fuel cell car
>emits nothing but water vapor, when you draw the box around the whole
>process, hydrogen is a net bad deal.  There are a lot of other equally
>thorny technical, safety, logistical, storage, and political issues
>associated with the hydrogen economy that some of the literature articles
>discuss.  I recommend you read some of those articles.
>
>You can catalytically reform alcohols like ethanol to make hydrogen; but,
>you also make some byproduct carbon dioxide.  Most alcohols today are
>produced from crude oil.  Actually, ethanol is one of the easiest organic
>compounds to catalytically reform to make hydrogen.  But, unless you make
>the ethanol from some renewable resource like corn or other biomass, you
>still end up using more fossil fuels and generating more greenhouse gas
>emissions than if you simply burnt the fossil fuel in your car in the 1st
>place.
>
>Roger Pihlaja
>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:37 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] The Hydrogen Economy
>
>
>  
>
>>    
>>
>>> Roger,
>>>      
>>>
>>    Isn t there any advantage to reforming methanol and/or ethanol as
>>fuel for making hydrogen ?  Is the reformation cost in energy
>>prohibitive in terms of profit making for the (oil)
>>companies?
>>   regrettably, I dont comprehend the profitability & conversion
>>issues as they relate to companies, rather I see the need for the
>>change in our "use now, pay later"  energy policies to a more
>>reasonable, approach that embraces new ideas and funds them until one
>>can produce the results the world needs to move ahead.
>>Lou
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Ron,
>>>
>>>Thanks for the article & the encouraging words.
>>>
>>>Given all the formidable technical, logistical, safety, and political
>>>challenges associated with switching to a hydrogen economy, I don't see
>>>      
>>>
>why
>  
>
>>>anyone has any enthusiasm for any programs beyond basic research at the
>>>national labs and certain technical universities.  We still need to be
>>>discussing whether the many hurdles standing in the way of a hydrogen
>>>economy can be surmounted and if they should be.  Any talk of large scale
>>>commercial implementation at this point is way premature.  Yet, that's
>>>what's going on.  If we switch over to hydrogen in a big way without the
>>>technology in place to generate the hydrogen from water using a renewable
>>>power source like biomass, solar, wind, geothermal, or hydroelectric;
>>>      
>>>
>then,
>  
>
>>>our fossil fuel usage and net greenhouse gas emissions will only
>>>      
>>>
>increase.
>  
>
>>>If we start generating hydrogen by catalytically reforming any fossil
>>>      
>>>
>fuel
>  
>
>>>or using fossil-fuel-generated electricity to make hydrogen from water on
>>>      
>>>
>a
>  
>
>>>large scale; then, OPEC will be celebrating our foolishness & the
>>>      
>>>
>planet's
>  
>
>>>ecosystem will be worse off!
>>>
>>>Sometimes, I think we are spending big R&D money on hydrogen because it's
>>>sexy technology and diverts attention away from technologies like
>>>      
>>>
>biofuels,
>  
>
>>>solar, geothermal, wind, and nuclear that are doable right now.  A big
>>>      
>>>
>R&D
>  
>
>>>emphasis on hydrogen guarantees the present stutus quo for big oil & the
>>>      
>>>
>big
>  
>
>>>auto companies will continue indefinitely.  It allows government and
>>>industry to present a "good public steward" image without spending too
>>>      
>>>
>much
>  
>
>>>profit or taxes on a technology that will, very likely, never be
>>>      
>>>
>practical
>  
>
>>>on a large scale.
>>>
>>>Roger Pihlaja
>>>S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Ronald Lipton" <rlipton at earthlink.net>
>>>To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:21 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] My Interview With Broin & Associates, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>> Roger,
>>>>
>>>>    Again, best of luck, I am glad to hear that the ice is breaking.
>>>> There is another interesting hydrogen economy article at:
>>>> http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html
>>>> which discusses some of the detailed technical issues.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:56 AM
>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Interview With Broin & Associates, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I figured you might be curious about my telephone interview for the
>>>> Technical Manager position at the Michigan Ethanol plant in Caro, MI.
>>>>
>>>> Well, there's good news & bad news.  I was on the phone for about 75
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>minutes
>>>      
>>>
>>>> with Jerry Baker from Broin & Associates, Inc. yesterday, which is a
>>>>        
>>>>
>good
>  
>
>>>> long interview.  Jerry started out by apologising regarding no
>>>>        
>>>>
>interview
>  
>
>>>> back in September, 2004.  There was apparently some sort of missed
>>>> communication between the Michigan Ethanol plant in Caro, MI and the
>>>>        
>>>>
>Broin
>  
>
>>>> corporate headquarters in Sioux Falls, SD.  The information packet
>>>>        
>>>>
>about
>  
>
>>>me
>>>      
>>>
>>>> never reached the decision making managers at the corporate
>>>>        
>>>>
>headquarters.
>  
>
>>>> So, it would appear my strategies to send a thank you letter to the
>>>>        
>>>>
>hiring
>  
>
>>>> manager back in October, 2004 as well as send a packet directly to
>>>>        
>>>>
>Sioux
>  
>
>>>> Falls, SD this time around were correct.  I was also able to find out
>>>>        
>>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>> person they hired back in September, 2004 never showed up.  The
>>>>        
>>>>
>Technical
>  
>
>>> > Manager position at the Caro, MI plant has been vacant all this time!
>>>Broin
>>>      
>>>
>>>> sounds like a wonderful company to work for.  To date, they've
>>>>        
>>>>
>engineered
>  
>
>>>> and built 20 corn-to-ethanol plants and they operate 14 of these
>>>>        
>>>>
>plants.
>  
>
>>>> Two more of their ethanol plants will start-up and come on-line in
>>>>        
>>>>
>2005
>  
>
>>>and
>>>      
>>>
>>>> they will start construction of three more this year.  So, business is
>>>> booming for them!  Broin is #2 in their industry, behind Archer
>>>>        
>>>>
>Daniels
>  
>
>>>> Midland.
>>>>
>>>> We discussed my biowaste to energy recovery ideas and my Bio-Energy
>>>>        
>>>>
>Corp.
>  
>
>>>> business plan.  Jerry probed me with some technical questions designed
>>>>        
>>>>
>to
>  
>
>>>> determine my in-depth knowledge of the dry milling route for the
>>>> corn-to-ethanol process.  I think I handled those pretty well.  I
>>>>        
>>>>
>asked
>  
>
>>>him
>>>      
>>>
>>>> if Broin was disappointed that the energy bill didn't make it thru
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>congress
>>>      
>>>
>>>> last fall.  He said Broin was sort of glad it hadn't passed despite
>>>>        
>>>>
>all
>  
>
>>>the
>>>      
>>>
>>>> subsidies in it for corn-to-ethanol.  It seems Broin ethanol plants
>>>>        
>>>>
>are
>  
>
>>>> already profitable without the federal subsidies.  The subsidies would
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>just
>>>      
>>>
>>>> keep a lot of inefficient competitors in the game!
>>>>
>>>> Two issues came up that didn't go as well as I would have liked.  For
>>>>        
>>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>> Technical Manager position in Caro, MI; Broin seemed to be looking for
>>>> someone with experience in running and troubleshooting industrial
>>>>        
>>>>
>scale
>  
>
>>>> fermentation reactors.  The Dow Chemical Co. doesn't run any
>>>>        
>>>>
>fermentation
>  
>
>>>> type chemical processes.  At Michigan Tech University, I took a class
>>>>        
>>>>
>in
>  
>
>>>> industrial microbiology, which discussed the theory & practice of
>>>>        
>>>>
>these
>  
>
>>>> types of processes.  I pointed out my formal training; but, I had to
>>>>        
>>>>
>admit
>  
>
>>>> I've never actually run a commercial scale fermentation process.  I
>>>>        
>>>>
>asked
>  
>
>>>> if, as Technical Manager at the Caro plant, would I be able to call on
>>>>        
>>>>
>my
>  
>
>>>> counterparts in the other 14 ethanol plants that Broin operates as
>>>>        
>>>>
>well as
>  
>
>>>> the central engineering dept. at the corporate headquarters for
>>>> troubleshooting assistance with the fermentation section of the
>>>>        
>>>>
>process?
>  
>
>>>Of
>>>      
>>>
>>>> course, those resources would be available to me.  Aren't there also
>>>>        
>>>>
>some
>  
>
>>>> lead operators with years of experience at the Caro plant?  I told
>>>>        
>>>>
>Jerry
>  
>
>>>> that with all the resources available to back me up and my own
>>>>        
>>>>
>expertise
>  
>
>>>in
>>>      
>>>
>>>> process design and troubleshooting, I thought I could come up to speed
>>>>        
>>>>
>on
>  
>
>>>> the fermentation reactors pretty quickly.  Other than the fermentation
>>>> reactors, I've had direct experience with all the other unit
>>>>        
>>>>
>operations in
>  
>
>>>> the plant.
>>>>
>>>> The other issue that came up was my relative lack of management
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>experience,
>>>      
>>>
>>>> despite my long career.  Just as at MRI in Kansas City, MO, I tried to
>>>>        
>>>>
>use
>  
>
>>>> my experience as Chief Engineer at the ceramics market development
>>>>        
>>>>
>plant
>  
>
>>>in
>>>      
>>>
>>>> Russellville, AR as well as my Boy Scout Wood Badge management
>>>>        
>>>>
>training.
>  
>
>>>> The experience in Russellville was from 1987-1990, which is not very
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>recent.
>>>      
>>>
>>>> Jerry didn't seem to react very favorably to the Wood Badge management
>>>> course either.  I e-mailed him some supplemental information on the
>>>>        
>>>>
>Wood
>  
>
>>>> Badge program, which may help.  I used the same strategy at MRI when
>>>>        
>>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>> issue of my management expertise came up & it seemed to work much
>>>>        
>>>>
>better
>  
>
>>>> there.  I don't know, it's much easier to judge reactions and body
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>language
>>>      
>>>
>>>> when you're sitting across a desk from the interviewer vs. over the
>>>>        
>>>>
>phone.
>  
>
>>>> Jerry also told me they were looking to hire some folks for their
>>>>        
>>>>
>central
>  
>
>>>> engineering group in Sioux Falls, SD.  He told me my background made
>>>>        
>>>>
>me
>  
>
>>>> sound like a much better fit for their central engineering group.
>>>>        
>>>>
>But,
>  
>
>>>the
>>>      
>>>
>>>> hiring decision hasn't been made on those positions yet.  Jerry said
>>>>        
>>>>
>he'd
>  
>
>>>be
>>>      
>>>
>>>> contacting the rest of the candidates for the Technical Manager
>>>>        
>>>>
>position
>  
>
>>>in
>>>      
>>>
>>>> Caro, MI this week.  The next steps would be face to face interviews
>>>>        
>>>>
>in
>  
>
>>>> Sioux Falls, SD and Caro, MI.  I should know one way or the other by
>>>>        
>>>>
>next
>  
>
>>>> week.  Naturally, Deb is rooting for the position in Caro, MI and
>>>>        
>>>>
>dislikes
>  
>
>>>> the thought of a move to Sioux Falls, SD even worse than Kansas City,
>>>>        
>>>>
>MO.
>  
>
>>>> But, stay tuned!
>>>>
>>>> FYI, for those of you that follow this subject, the January, 2005
>>>>        
>>>>
>issue of
>  
>
>>> > Popular Science magazine has an interesting article on the hydrogen
>>>economy.
>>>      
>>>
>>>> Roger Pihlaja
>>>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>      
>>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
>  
>


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