[Rhodes22-list] The Hydrogen Economy

[Roger Pihlaja]

Lou,

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe.  A typical star, like
the sun, consumes about 600E6 metric tons of hydrogen/sec in fusion nuclear
reactions just to keep itself lit up.  But, hydrogen is so reactive, it
doesn't exist as free hydrogen gas anywhere on earth.  Instead, it's always
combined with other elements like oxygen to make water or carbon, nitrogen,
and oxygen to make any of millions of organic compounds.  So, you need to
think of hydrogen as an energy carrier, not an energy source.  Some other
source of energy must be used to produce hydrogen from a resource like water
or one of the fossil fuels (i.e. coal, crude oil, or natural gas).  Then,
the hydrogen can be transported and stored and the energy can be released
later, just like a battery.  The trouble is, when you burn fossil fuels to
make electricity and then use that electricity to make hydrogen from water,
every step in the process adds some inefficiency and produces greenhouse
gases like carbon dioxide.  The same is true if you catalytically reform
fossil fuels to make hydrogen directly.  The process is not completely
efficient and the carbon atoms in the fossil fuels do not simply disappear.
Instead, they turn into greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and you end up
polluting just as much as if you had simply burned the fossil fuel in your
car.  So, even though the exhaust pipe in your futuristic fuel cell car
emits nothing but water vapor, when you draw the box around the whole
process, hydrogen is a net bad deal.  There are a lot of other equally
thorny technical, safety, logistical, storage, and political issues
associated with the hydrogen economy that some of the literature articles
discuss.  I recommend you read some of those articles.

You can catalytically reform alcohols like ethanol to make hydrogen; but,
you also make some byproduct carbon dioxide.  Most alcohols today are
produced from crude oil.  Actually, ethanol is one of the easiest organic
compounds to catalytically reform to make hydrogen.  But, unless you make
the ethanol from some renewable resource like corn or other biomass, you
still end up using more fossil fuels and generating more greenhouse gas
emissions than if you simply burnt the fossil fuel in your car in the 1st
place.

Roger Pihlaja
S/V Dynamic Equilibrium

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lou Rosenberg" <lsr3 at MAIL.nyu.edu>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] The Hydrogen Economy


>
>
> >  Roger,
>
>     Isn t there any advantage to reforming methanol and/or ethanol as
> fuel for making hydrogen ?  Is the reformation cost in energy
> prohibitive in terms of profit making for the (oil)
> companies?
>    regrettably, I dont comprehend the profitability & conversion
> issues as they relate to companies, rather I see the need for the
> change in our "use now, pay later"  energy policies to a more
> reasonable, approach that embraces new ideas and funds them until one
> can produce the results the world needs to move ahead.
> Lou
>
> >Ron,
> >
> >Thanks for the article & the encouraging words.
> >
> >Given all the formidable technical, logistical, safety, and political
> >challenges associated with switching to a hydrogen economy, I don't see
why
> >anyone has any enthusiasm for any programs beyond basic research at the
> >national labs and certain technical universities.  We still need to be
> >discussing whether the many hurdles standing in the way of a hydrogen
> >economy can be surmounted and if they should be.  Any talk of large scale
> >commercial implementation at this point is way premature.  Yet, that's
> >what's going on.  If we switch over to hydrogen in a big way without the
> >technology in place to generate the hydrogen from water using a renewable
> >power source like biomass, solar, wind, geothermal, or hydroelectric;
then,
> >our fossil fuel usage and net greenhouse gas emissions will only
increase.
> >If we start generating hydrogen by catalytically reforming any fossil
fuel
> >or using fossil-fuel-generated electricity to make hydrogen from water on
a
> >large scale; then, OPEC will be celebrating our foolishness & the
planet's
> >ecosystem will be worse off!
> >
> >Sometimes, I think we are spending big R&D money on hydrogen because it's
> >sexy technology and diverts attention away from technologies like
biofuels,
> >solar, geothermal, wind, and nuclear that are doable right now.  A big
R&D
> >emphasis on hydrogen guarantees the present stutus quo for big oil & the
big
> >auto companies will continue indefinitely.  It allows government and
> >industry to present a "good public steward" image without spending too
much
> >profit or taxes on a technology that will, very likely, never be
practical
> >on a large scale.
> >
> >Roger Pihlaja
> >S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ronald Lipton" <rlipton at earthlink.net>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:21 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] My Interview With Broin & Associates, Inc.
> >
> >
> >>  Roger,
> >>
> >>     Again, best of luck, I am glad to hear that the ice is breaking.
> >>  There is another interesting hydrogen economy article at:
> >>  http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html
> >>  which discusses some of the detailed technical issues.
> >>
> >>  Ron
> >>
> >>  ----- Original Message -----
> >>  From: "Roger Pihlaja" <cen09402 at centurytel.net>
> >>  To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>  Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:56 AM
> >>  Subject: [Rhodes22-list] My Interview With Broin & Associates, Inc.
> >>
> >>
> >>  Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >>  I figured you might be curious about my telephone interview for the
> >>  Technical Manager position at the Michigan Ethanol plant in Caro, MI.
> >>
> >>  Well, there's good news & bad news.  I was on the phone for about 75
> >minutes
> >>  with Jerry Baker from Broin & Associates, Inc. yesterday, which is a
good
> >>  long interview.  Jerry started out by apologising regarding no
interview
> >>  back in September, 2004.  There was apparently some sort of missed
> >>  communication between the Michigan Ethanol plant in Caro, MI and the
Broin
> >>  corporate headquarters in Sioux Falls, SD.  The information packet
about
> >me
> >>  never reached the decision making managers at the corporate
headquarters.
> >>  So, it would appear my strategies to send a thank you letter to the
hiring
> >>  manager back in October, 2004 as well as send a packet directly to
Sioux
> >>  Falls, SD this time around were correct.  I was also able to find out
the
> >>  person they hired back in September, 2004 never showed up.  The
Technical
> >  > Manager position at the Caro, MI plant has been vacant all this time!
> >Broin
> >>  sounds like a wonderful company to work for.  To date, they've
engineered
> >>  and built 20 corn-to-ethanol plants and they operate 14 of these
plants.
> >>  Two more of their ethanol plants will start-up and come on-line in
2005
> >and
> >>  they will start construction of three more this year.  So, business is
> >>  booming for them!  Broin is #2 in their industry, behind Archer
Daniels
> >>  Midland.
> >>
> >>  We discussed my biowaste to energy recovery ideas and my Bio-Energy
Corp.
> >>  business plan.  Jerry probed me with some technical questions designed
to
> >>  determine my in-depth knowledge of the dry milling route for the
> >>  corn-to-ethanol process.  I think I handled those pretty well.  I
asked
> >him
> >>  if Broin was disappointed that the energy bill didn't make it thru
> >congress
> >>  last fall.  He said Broin was sort of glad it hadn't passed despite
all
> >the
> >>  subsidies in it for corn-to-ethanol.  It seems Broin ethanol plants
are
> >>  already profitable without the federal subsidies.  The subsidies would
> >just
> >>  keep a lot of inefficient competitors in the game!
> >>
> >>  Two issues came up that didn't go as well as I would have liked.  For
the
> >>  Technical Manager position in Caro, MI; Broin seemed to be looking for
> >>  someone with experience in running and troubleshooting industrial
scale
> >>  fermentation reactors.  The Dow Chemical Co. doesn't run any
fermentation
> >>  type chemical processes.  At Michigan Tech University, I took a class
in
> >>  industrial microbiology, which discussed the theory & practice of
these
> >>  types of processes.  I pointed out my formal training; but, I had to
admit
> >>  I've never actually run a commercial scale fermentation process.  I
asked
> >>  if, as Technical Manager at the Caro plant, would I be able to call on
my
> >>  counterparts in the other 14 ethanol plants that Broin operates as
well as
> >>  the central engineering dept. at the corporate headquarters for
> >>  troubleshooting assistance with the fermentation section of the
process?
> >Of
> >>  course, those resources would be available to me.  Aren't there also
some
> >>  lead operators with years of experience at the Caro plant?  I told
Jerry
> >>  that with all the resources available to back me up and my own
expertise
> >in
> >>  process design and troubleshooting, I thought I could come up to speed
on
> >>  the fermentation reactors pretty quickly.  Other than the fermentation
> >>  reactors, I've had direct experience with all the other unit
operations in
> >>  the plant.
> >>
> >>  The other issue that came up was my relative lack of management
> >experience,
> >>  despite my long career.  Just as at MRI in Kansas City, MO, I tried to
use
> >>  my experience as Chief Engineer at the ceramics market development
plant
> >in
> >>  Russellville, AR as well as my Boy Scout Wood Badge management
training.
> >>  The experience in Russellville was from 1987-1990, which is not very
> >recent.
> >>  Jerry didn't seem to react very favorably to the Wood Badge management
> >>  course either.  I e-mailed him some supplemental information on the
Wood
> >>  Badge program, which may help.  I used the same strategy at MRI when
the
> >>  issue of my management expertise came up & it seemed to work much
better
> >>  there.  I don't know, it's much easier to judge reactions and body
> >language
> >>  when you're sitting across a desk from the interviewer vs. over the
phone.
> >>
> >>  Jerry also told me they were looking to hire some folks for their
central
> >>  engineering group in Sioux Falls, SD.  He told me my background made
me
> >>  sound like a much better fit for their central engineering group.
But,
> >the
> >>  hiring decision hasn't been made on those positions yet.  Jerry said
he'd
> >be
> >>  contacting the rest of the candidates for the Technical Manager
position
> >in
> >>  Caro, MI this week.  The next steps would be face to face interviews
in
> >>  Sioux Falls, SD and Caro, MI.  I should know one way or the other by
next
> >>  week.  Naturally, Deb is rooting for the position in Caro, MI and
dislikes
> >>  the thought of a move to Sioux Falls, SD even worse than Kansas City,
MO.
> >>  But, stay tuned!
> >>
> >>  FYI, for those of you that follow this subject, the January, 2005
issue of
> >  > Popular Science magazine has an interesting article on the hydrogen
> >economy.
> >>
> >>  Roger Pihlaja
> >>  S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>  __________________________________________________
> >>  Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >>  __________________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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