[Rhodes22-list] Re: Commitment to war

[stan]

Thanks, but too long for me to tackle in May.    Get back to you on that 
later....

ss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "brad haslett" <flybrad at yahoo.com>
To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re: Commitment to war


> Stan,
>
> It's very rare that I find myself agreeing with
> something published in the San Francisco Chronicle but
> this is just too good, and on subject.
>
> Brad
>
>
>        www.sfgate.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Leaving the left
> I can no longer abide the simpering voices of
> self-styled progressives -- people who once championed
> solidarity
> - Keith Thompson
> Sunday, May 22, 2005
>
>
> Nightfall, Jan. 30. Eight-million Iraqi voters have
> finished risking their lives to endorse freedom and
> defy fascism. Three things happen in rapid succession.
> The right cheers. The left demurs. I walk away from a
> long-term intimate relationship. I'm separating not
> from a person but a cause: the political philosophy
> that for more than three decades has shaped my
> character and consciousness, my sense of self and
> community, even my sense of cosmos.
>
> I'm leaving the left -- more precisely, the American
> cultural left and what it has become during our time
> together.
>
> I choose this day for my departure because I can no
> longer abide the simpering voices of self-styled
> progressives -- people who once championed solidarity
> with oppressed populations everywhere -- reciting all
> the ways Iraq's democratic experiment might yet
> implode.
>
> My estrangement hasn't happened overnight. Out of the
> corner of my eye I watched what was coming for more
> than three decades, yet refused to truly see. Now it's
> all too obvious. Leading voices in America's "peace"
> movement are actually cheering against
> self-determination for a long-suffering Third World
> country because they hate George W. Bush more than
> they love freedom.
>
> Like many others who came of age politically in the
> 1960s, I became adept at not taking the measure of the
> left's mounting incoherence. To face it directly posed
> the danger that I would have to describe it
> accurately, first to myself and then to others. That
> could only give aid and comfort to Jerry Falwell, Pat
> Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and all the
> other Usual Suspects the left so regularly employs to
> keep from seeing its own reflection in the mirror.
>
> Now, I find myself in a swirling metamorphosis. Think
> Kafka, without the bug. Think Kuhnian paradigm shift,
> without the buzz. Every anomaly that didn't fit my
> perceptual set is suddenly back, all the more glaring
> for so long ignored. The insistent inner voice I
> learned to suppress now has my rapt attention.
> "Something strange -- something approaching
> pathological -- something entirely of its own making
> -- has the left in its grip," the voice whispers. "How
> did this happen?" The Iraqi election is my tipping
> point. The time has come to walk in a different
> direction -- just as I did many years before.
>
> I grew up in a northwest Ohio town where conservative
> was a polite term for reactionary. When Martin Luther
> King Jr. spoke of Mississippi "sweltering in the heat
> of oppression," he could have been describing my
> community, where blacks knew to keep their heads down,
> and animosity toward Catholics and Jews was
> unapologetic. Liberal and conservative, like left and
> right, wouldn't be part of my lexicon for a while, but
> when King proclaimed, "I have a dream," I
> instinctively cast my lot with those I later found out
> were liberals (then synonymous with "the left" and
> "progressive thought").
>
> The people on the other side were dedicated to
> preserving my hometown's backward-looking status quo.
> This was all that my 10-year-old psyche needed to
> know. The knowledge carried me for a long time.
> Mythologies are helpful that way.
>
> I began my activist career championing the 1968
> presidential candidacies of Robert Kennedy and Eugene
> McCarthy, because both promised to end America's
> misadventure in Vietnam. I marched for peace and farm
> worker justice, lobbied for women's right to choose
> and environmental protections, signed up with George
> McGovern in 1972 and got elected as the youngest
> delegate ever to a Democratic convention.
>
> Eventually I joined the staff of U.S. Sen. Howard
> Metzenbaum, D-Ohio. In short, I became a card-carrying
> liberal, although I never actually got a card.
> (Bookkeeping has never been the left's strong suit.)
> All my commitments centered on belief in equal
> opportunity, due process, respect for the dignity of
> the individual and solidarity with people in trouble.
> To my mind, Americans who had joined the resistance to
> Franco's fascist dystopia captured the progressive
> spirit at its finest.
>
> A turning point came at a dinner party on the day
> Ronald Reagan famously described the Soviet Union as
> the pre-eminent source of evil in the modern world.
> The general tenor of the evening was that Reagan's use
> of the word "evil" had moved the world closer to
> annihilation. There was a palpable sense that we might
> not make it to dessert.
>
> When I casually offered that the surviving relatives
> of the more than 20 million people murdered on orders
> of Joseph Stalin might not find "evil'" too strong a
> word, the room took on a collective bemused smile of
> the sort you might expect if someone had casually
> mentioned taking up child molestation for sport.
>
> My progressive companions had a point. It was rude to
> bring a word like "gulag" to the dinner table.
>
> I look back on that experience as the beginning of my
> departure from a left already well on its way to
> losing its bearings. Two decades later, I watched with
> astonishment as leading left intellectuals launched a
> telethon- like body count of civilian deaths caused by
> American soldiers in Afghanistan. Their premise was
> straightforward, almost giddily so: When the number of
> civilian Afghani deaths surpassed the carnage of Sept.
> 11, the war would be unjust, irrespective of other
> considerations.
>
> Stated simply: The force wielded by democracies in
> self-defense was declared morally equivalent to the
> nihilistic aggression perpetuated by Muslim fanatics.
>
> Susan Sontag cleared her throat for the "courage" of
> the al Qaeda pilots. Norman Mailer pronounced the dead
> of Sept. 11 comparable to "automobile statistics." The
> events of that day were likely premeditated by the
> White House, Gore Vidal insinuated. Noam Chomsky
> insisted that al Qaeda at its most atrocious generated
> no terror greater than American foreign policy on a
> mediocre day.
>
> All of this came back to me as I watched the left's
> anemic, smirking response to Iraq's election in
> January. Didn't many of these same people stand up in
> the sixties for self-rule for oppressed people and
> against fascism in any guise? Yes, and to their
> lasting credit. But many had since made clear that
> they had also changed their minds about the virtues of
> King's call for equal of opportunity.
>
> These days the postmodern left demands that government
> and private institutions guarantee equality of
> outcomes. Any racial or gender "disparities" are to be
> considered evidence of culpable bias, regardless of
> factors such as personal motivation, training, and
> skill. This goal is neither liberal nor progressive;
> but it is what the left has chosen. In a very real
> sense it may be the last card held by a movement
> increasingly ensnared in resentful questing for
> group-specific rights and the subordination of
> citizenship to group identity. There's a word for
> this: pathetic.
>
> I smile when friends tell me I've "moved right." I
> laugh out loud at what now passes for progressive on
> the main lines of the cultural left.
>
> In the name of "diversity," the University of Arizona
> has forbidden discrimination based on "individual
> style." The University of Connecticut has banned
> "inappropriately directed laughter." Brown University,
> sensing unacceptable gray areas, warns that harassment
> "may be intentional or unintentional and still
> constitute harassment." (Yes, we're talking
> "subconscious harassment" here. We're watching your
> thoughts ...).
>
> Wait, it gets better. When actor Bill Cosby called on
> black parents to explain to their kids why they are
> not likely to get into medical school speaking English
> like "Why you ain't" and "Where you is," Jesse Jackson
> countered that the time was not yet right to "level
> the playing field." Why not? Because "drunk people
> can't do that ... illiterate people can't do that."
>
> When self-styled pragmatic feminist Camille Paglia
> mocked young coeds who believe "I should be able to
> get drunk at a fraternity party and go upstairs to a
> guy's room without anything happening," Susan Estrich
> spoke up for gender- focused feminists who "would
> argue that so long as women are powerless relative to
> men, viewing 'yes' as a sign of true consent is
> misguided."
>
> I'll admit my politics have shifted in recent years,
> as have America's political landscape and cultural
> horizon. Who would have guessed that the U.S. senator
> with today's best voting record on human rights would
> be not Ted Kennedy or Barbara Boxer but Kansas
> Republican Sam Brownback?
>
> He is also by most measures one of the most
> conservative senators. Brownback speaks openly about
> how his horror at the genocide in the Sudan is shaped
> by his Christian faith, as King did when he insisted
> on justice for "all of God's children."
>
> My larger point is rather simple. Just as a body needs
> different medicines at different times for different
> reasons, this also holds for the body politic.
>
> In the sixties, America correctly focused on bringing
> down walls that prevented equal access and due
> process. It was time to walk the Founders' talk -- and
> we did. With barriers to opportunity no longer written
> into law, today the body politic is crying for
> different remedies.
>
> America must now focus on creating healthy,
> self-actualizing individuals committed to taking
> responsibility for their lives, developing their
> talents, honing their skills and intellects, fostering
> emotional and moral intelligence, all in all
> contributing to the advancement of the human
> condition.
>
> At the heart of authentic liberalism lies the
> recognition, in the words of John Gardner, "that the
> ever renewing society will be a free society (whose]
> capacity for renewal depends on the individuals who
> make it up." A continuously renewing society, Gardner
> believed, is one that seeks to "foster innovative,
> versatile, and self-renewing men and women and give
> them room to breathe."
>
> One aspect of my politics hasn't changed a bit. I
> became a liberal in the first place to break from the
> repressive group orthodoxies of my reactionary
> hometown.
>
> This past January, my liberalism was in full throttle
> when I bid the cultural left goodbye to escape a new
> version of that oppressiveness. I departed with new
> clarity about the brilliance of liberal democracy and
> the value system it entails; the quest for freedom as
> an intrinsically human affair; and the dangers of
> demands for conformity and adherence to any point of
> view through silence, fear, or coercion.
>
> True, it took a while to see what was right before my
> eyes. A certain misplaced loyalty kept me from
> grasping that a view of individuals as morally capable
> of and responsible for making the principle decisions
> that shape their lives is decisively at odds with the
> contemporary left's entrance-level view of people as
> passive and helpless victims of powerful external
> forces, hence political wards who require the
> continuous shepherding of caretaker elites.
>
> Leftists who no longer speak of the duties of
> citizens, but only of the rights of clients, cannot be
> expected to grasp the importance (not least to our
> survival) of fostering in the Middle East the crucial
> developmental advances that gave rise to our own
> capacity for pluralism, self-reflection, and equality.
> A left averse to making common cause with competent,
> self- determining individuals -- people who guide
> their lives on the basis of received values, everyday
> moral understandings, traditional wisdom, and plain
> common sense -- is a faction that deserves the
> marginalization it has pursued with such tenacity for
> so many years.
>
> All of which is why I have come to believe, and gladly
> join with others who have discovered for themselves,
> that the single most important thing a genuinely
> liberal person can do now is walk away from the house
> the left has built. The renewal of any tradition that
> deserves the name "progressive" becomes more likely
> with each step in a better direction.
>
> Keith Thompson is a Petaluma writer and the author of
> "Angels and Aliens" and "To Be a Man." His work is at
> www.thompsonatlarge.com. Contact us at
> insight at sfchronicle.com.
>
> Page C - 1
> URL:
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/05/22/INGUNCQHKJ1.DTL
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ©2005 San Francisco Chronicle
>
> --- stan <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> You must be referring to Clinton helping out in
>> Serbia et al when the
>> Republicans were all for not doing anything about
>> the ethnic cleansing and
>> also got pissed off when Clinton refused to do it
>> without NATO and without
>> losing any American lives.  Pretty ugly record.
>>
>> You are right though, as a pinko bleeding heart
>> liberal, I should be sending
>> GB profits to help George out with his unplanned
>> mess but unfortunately GBI
>> also didn't plan ahead and turned out to be a non
>> profit organization.
>>
>> but love hearing from you and getting the broader
>> perspective - even if I am
>> getting too old to change.
>>
>> stan
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Steve" <rhodes2282 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "stan" <stan at rhodes22.com>; "The Rhodes 22 mail
>> list"
>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re: Commitment to war
>>
>>
>> > Stan
>> > Maybe some people just Recognize the need to help
>> > people out when they are being murbered, raped,
>> > sprayed with chemical weapons, etc.
>> >
>> > I support the war & any war that helps make people
>> > free.
>> >
>> > Based on the comment you made about me below,
>> since
>> > you are for the terrorists, why don't YOU just go
>> over
>> > there and fight with the terrorists:-)  See Stan,
>> > comments like this are stupid, they make no sense.
>> > When you are the big dog on the plantet; this
>> country
>> > has to help people that can't help themselves.  I
>> know
>> > liberals only think about themselves and thier
>> welfare
>> > programs; BUT there are more important things to
>> spend
>> > money on than lazy Americans who won't work for a
>> > living.  Now if the liberals really wanted to do
>> > someting for thier fellow man; then they would
>> give up
>> > all earthly possessions to the government:-) Are
>> you
>> > going to donate your business Stan????????????  Do
>> it
>> > for the children!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
>> > Steve
>> >
>> >
>> > --- stan <stan at rhodes22.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> thanks for the rare sharing, Rummy.
>> >>
>> >> Still waiting for Steve and friends to back up
>> their
>> >> bravado with enlisting
>> >> or Bush to let his daughters sign up.  Maybe war
>> is
>> >> exciting and glamorous
>> >> for some who stay home and hire others - but if
>> it
>> >> really, really, really is
>> >> the right thing to do, as several on the List
>> seem
>> >> to think, then it should
>> >> also be the right thing to declare war, have a
>> fair
>> >> draft for those asked to
>> >> serve and rationing for the fully committed home
>> >> front.  I for one would
>> >> never allow my kids to be taken for any half
>> hearted
>> >> venture where the
>> >> politically correct back up is tax cutting and
>> >> magnetic symbols.
>> >>
>> >> stan, WW11
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>> >> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> >> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 4:15 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re: Commitment to
>> war
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Herb and all,
>> >> >
>> >> > Neither the body count or the number in country
>> >> had anything to do  with
>> >> > our
>> >> > commitment or lack thereof in Vietnam. When a
>> >> soldier is being fired  upon
>> >> > and
>> >> > has to radio for permission to return fire,
>> that's
>> >> a lack of  commitment.
>> >> > Remember, we didn't have cell phones in those
>> days
>> >> and military  radio's,
>> >> > as good
>> >> > as they were, often couldn't contact anyone. I
>> was
>> >> with an  armored unit
>> >> > in I
>> >> > Corps (DMZ area) from 1970 to 1971 and saw a
>> lot
>> >> of strange  stuff, but
>> >> > having to ask for permission to return fire is
>> the
>> >> one thing that  really
>> >> > burned my
>> >> > butt. Sometimes we just didn't ask for
>> permission
>> >> and pleaded  no radio
>> >> > contact when questioned after the fact. It was
>> >> easier and saved our  butts
>> >> > on many
>> >> > an occasion.
>> >> > The one thing that concerns me when these
>> >> discussions come up on the list
>> >> > is
>> >> > that I doubt that many people on either side of
>> >> the issue know what
>> >> > happens
>> >> > to the human body when it is hit with a fifty
>> >> caliber round or a grenade.
>> >> > Or,
>> >> > when a RPG hits a tank and burns through the
>> >> armament and blows up inside
>> >> > the
>> >> > tank turning those bodies into chipped beef.
>> War
>> >> isn't pretty people. Part
>> >> > of my  duties while in Vietnam were to identify
>> >> bodies at the morgue when
>> >> > they
>> >> > were  brought in from the field. I still have
>> >> nightmares about my
>> >> > experiences,
>> >> > and  don't talk about them very often. The
>> >> decision to go to war has to be
>> >> > taken very  seriously. People talking about
>> body
>> >> counts like your counting
>> >> > cord
>> >> > wood makes  me sick. Take a walk through a
>> >> veterans hospital sometime and
>> >> > meet
>> >> > some of the  walking dead. Your thoughts on war
>> >> will change, I guarantee
>> >> > it.
>> >> > War isn't good  for any living thing.
>> >> > Time to step off the soap box and mix a drink.
>> >> Coke has a new Diet Coke
>> >> > made
>> >> > with Splenda. No more Nutrasweet poisoning.
>> Yeah!
>> >> >
>> >> > Rummy
>> >> >
>> __________________________________________________
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>> >> www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
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