[Rhodes22-list] stirring the hornet's nest.... (political)

[brad haslett]

Slim,

Where the hell is Bill Effros?  The last I heard they
were headed to Tuscany.  Did they move?  I hate/love
Bill on these issues.  Bill!  Hello!  See!  You just
can't depend on him.

Brad

--- Slim <salm at mn.rr.com> wrote:

> Thank you, Brad.  I like it a lot more when you
> write in your own words
> instead of sending me long and tedious speeches to
> wade through.
> 
> With regard to the tyrants, I'll wear the tag
> "cynical" if the government
> will wear the tag "dastardly" or "hypocrite."  I
> don't know if we're doomed
> to repeat the past, but it seems likely.
> 
> Whether or not our efforts to democratize the region
> have done any actual
> good is totally speculative at best.  Consider the
> price.  The same for any
> would-be decline had we not intervened.  We just
> don't know.  It depends on
> who's doing the talking.  You pays your money and
> you takes your chances.
> 
> On border battles, Poland, Austria, Hungary,
> Czechoslovakia, etc. is hardly
> a fair comparison to Kuwait.  It's not as if Saddam
> was marching across the
> continent.  
> 
> So, you don't like my definition of Fascism and my
> obvious implication?  OK,
> how do you define Fascism and why doesn't it apply
> to mein furor, Bush with
> the no-bid contract to Halliburton, our diminished
> civil rights and all that
> fear-mongering?
> 
> And where the hell is Bill Effros when you need him?
> 
> Slim
> 
> On 11/16/05 8:01 AM, "brad haslett"
> <flybrad at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Wally, Rummy, et al,
> > 
> > What the hell, our Gulfport attorney won't be in
> her
> > office for another hour so why not entertain
> myself
> > with this?
> > 
> > Rummy, you accuse me of chest thumping and then go
> on
> > to beat your own.  I can hear it all the way to
> > Tennessee.  Read the rest of your post and get
> back to
> > me on that issue.  Re-read my disclaimer on
> Buchanan.
> > He is not one of my favorites but that doesn't
> mean he
> > isn't dead on from time to time.  I quote the
> > Clinton's when they are correct on issues, my
> personal
> > distaste for Billy which dates back to long before
> he
> > was President notwithstanting.  Argue the message,
> not
> > the messenger.  I couldn't agree more on the
> fiscal
> > responsibility issues and that is why Bush is in
> such
> > trouble with some elements of GOP - like me.
> > 
> > Wally, I thought I made it clear that I was
> pressed
> > for time and didn't want to engage in a point for
> > point debate with Slim, but this shouldn't take
> long.
> > 
> > "First the tyranny of Saddam. This is no reason to
> > invade a sovereign state.The US has ignored or
> even
> > supported so many tyrants I can't count 'em.  But
> just
> > to name a few, Pinochet, The Shaw of Iran, Kim
> Jong
> > Ill, even Saddam himself was armed by the US.  So
> we
> > say, "He's abusing his own citizens so we better
> go in
> > there and take him down."  Not only is this bad
> > foreign
> > policy, but it's bullshit policy because we don't
> > really care.  We didn't care about the Shaw's
> death
> > squads or Pinochet's.  Why now Saddam?  The whole
> > tyrant argument holds no water at all."
> > 
> > That's a pretty cynical view Slim.  We supported
> > Stalin when he was of use to us, and paid a heavy
> > price.  Past mistakes do not doom us to future
> > inaction. Are you implying that because we were
> > previously on the wrong side of history we are
> damned
> > to tolerate every despot?
> > 
> > "The same goes for the argument about spreading
> > freedom and democracy. What a load of crap!  Don't
> > tell me that our government actually give a rat's
> ass
> > about an Iraqi democracy.  No, I'm not saying
> > democracy itself is crap, but why would we care
> about
> > Iraq when we don't care about the dozens of
> > other non-democratic countries?  Why Iraq?  Why
> not
> > invade Cuba?  Isn't Fidel a tyrant?  Why not North
> > Korea?  We know Kim Jong Ill is a tyrant.  This is
> bad
> > foreign policy."
> > 
> > It is no secret that we have ignored a lot of
> tyrants
> > in the Mid-East because THEY HAVE OIL!  Our
> "friends"
> > the Saudi's are perhaps the worst of the lot.  The
> > leaders of these nations have focussed the
> attention
> > of their citizens on hating the US for their
> miserable
> > conditions instead of their own leaders.  The
> > democratic process in Iraq has all ready spilled
> over
> > into other countries in the region.  Do you have a
> > better idea?  A billion Muslims constitute a large
> > population to ignore.  Are they a threat under
> their
> > current leaders?  Uh, yes.  Can we force them to
> > change?  No, that has to come from within, and it
> is.
> > Kim Jong III?  We have China to help handle that.
> > Fidel?  A lot of Cubans in Miami would love to
> invade
> > Cuba.  Bay of Pigs ring a bell?  He was a threat
> then,
> > not now unless you consider cornering the market
> on
> > 57' Chevys a threat.
> > 
> > "I agreed with Mike Abdullah when he stated we had
> no
> > business in Kuwait in the first place.  We
> shouldn't
> > be fighting other countries' border battles. As
> Mike
> > said, What was Saddam going to do with his oil? 
> Drink
> > it?  He was selling it on the open market and
> black
> > market just like every other Arab state.  That was
> bad
> > foreign policy."
> > 
> > Gee Slim, that sounds familiar.  Poland, Austria,
> > Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc., "peace in our
> time",
> > yada, yada, yada.  Remember what Santayana wrote
> about
> > repeating history.  What did he do with his oil? 
> Buy
> > weapons from the French, Germans and Russians?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > "But whatever, then we had Saddam completely
> contained
> > with the 
> > no-fly-zone and the sanctions.  He was no threat
> to
> > us.  Perhaps he was a "threat" to Israel, but why
> go
> > to war with someone you've already beaten?  This
> is
> > bad foreign policy."
> > 
> > Actually Slim, Saddam used to shoot at us in the
> no
> > fly zone.  I'd be happy to introduce you to some
> of my
> > co-workers who can vouch for that.  Perhaps he was
> a
> > threat to Israel?  Does paying $25,000 to families
> > that provide suicide bombers in Israel constitute
> a
> > threat?
> > 
> > "Did we need to go in and hunt for WMD?  Do we
> need to
> > go into ANY country hunting for WMD?  Again, why
> not
> > North Korea?  This is bad foreign policy."
> > 
> > Read above about China and North Korea.
> 
=== message truncated ===



	
		
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