[Rhodes22-list] Right-of-Way

[Bill Effros]

Wally,

I don't have time for this spat right now, but I will get back to it 
next week.

Let's be clear about just a few things:

"COLREGS" is an international standardized set of instructions designed 
to avoid collisions. 

"Inland Navigations Rules" are used only in the United States, and 
differ slightly from COLREGS.

Most of the people on this list have read neither.

Some skippers on this list are sailing on enclosed recreational bodies 
of water where they never encounter a variety of commercial vessels.

Others take their brand new boats onto commercial waterways where they 
immediately encounter situations that can quickly lead to collisions if 
not handled properly.

Most new skippers honestly believe "Sailboats always have the right of 
way."  This concept kills, and it is the duty of experienced sailors on 
this list to make sure newcomers understand that they should never 
operate their boats under this misconception.

The COLREGS rules cited by Herb do not apply to us in 99.9999999% of all 
encounters with other boats on waterways except to the extent that they 
clearly state that any boat involved in a collision is partly to blame 
because one of your primary responsibilities as a skipper is to ensure 
that you do not hit anything else.  It's not like racing around buoys 
and yelling at other skippers that you've got the right of way.

When our boats are under sail we are traveling at a maximum of 6.25 
knots, and generally far more slowly than that.  Here on Long Island 
Sound we can easily see large commercial boats 2 miles away traveling 4 
to 5 times faster than we are traveling.  It is almost impossible to 
collide with that boat while maintaining a consistent course--you must 
constantly turn into it's path, which is a violation of COLREGS. 

The whole point of COLREGS is to create a consistent set of rules so all 
skippers will know what every other skipper is going to do in a 
potential collision scenario.  It is very important for sailboat 
skippers to understand that big boats cannot and will not swerve around 
every nut on a sailboat who gets in the way.

The Law of Tonnage is far more important than COLREGS if you get hit by 
another boat.  Dead captains never get to point out their scores on book 
tests.

Bill Effros





TN Rhodey wrote:
> Herb,
>
> Thanks, I don't have the license but I knew that what Bill was posting 
> did not folkow the regs. As he said a lot of people get the rules 
> wrong....including Bill!
>
> Wally
>
>
>> From: "Herb Parsons" <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Right-of-Way
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:05:10 -0500
>>
>> Bill,
>>
>> Just to be sure we're clear.
>>
>> There are specific meanings to all of those terms. A person cannot 
>> use "common sense" to define things like "vessel restricted in its 
>> abilityt o maneuver" and "vessel not under command".
>>
>> Those definitions are also in the colregs.
>>
>> For instance, your example : A Cigarette boat, traveling at 90 miles 
>> an hour, is restricted in its ability to maneuver.  Sailboats must 
>> give way -- early!" is simply incorrect. A cigarette boat, traveling 
>> at 90 miles an hour, in open water in CG regulated area, that hit a 
>> sailboat would almost definitely be found to be at fault.
>>
>>
>>
>> And, again, talking about rules rather than common sense, some of 
>> your assertions are simply incorrect, your list of boats that have 
>> "right of way", you included "emergency vessels".
>>
>> Simply incorrect Bill. I know 100% sure, because that very question 
>> was on my USCG Master's exam. Not the exact wording, but the concept 
>> of the message was:
>> You are on your 60 foot vessel, and a motor vessel with blue lights 
>> flashing appears to be on a collision course approaching to 
>> starboard. You should:
>>
>> And here it gave four choices. One of those choices was to alter 
>> course to avoid the vessel, and the other was to maintain course and 
>> speed as the stand-on vessel. That was the answer I gave, and got the 
>> question right (I got all of the questions right on that portion, but 
>> they were a little lax, they only required 90%).
>>
>> Please, nothing wrong AT ALL with using common sense, and if I saw 
>> the real life situation listed above, I'd slow down and the let the 
>> Game Warden/Sheriff/CG Vessel/Whatever pass in front of me. However, 
>> the test was NOT testing my use of common sense, it was testing my 
>> knowledge of the colregs.
>>
>> Herb Parsons
>>
>> S/V O'Jure
>> 1976 O'Day 25
>> Lake Grapevine, N TX
>>
>> S/V Reve de Papa
>> 1971 Coronado 35
>> Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>>
>> >>> bill at effros.com 7/27/2006 8:44:56 am >>>
>> Tom, Herb,
>>
>> Most people get this wrong.
>>
>> Here's the pecking order:
>>
>> (Summary of Coast Guard rules courtesy of the state of Tennessee)
>>
>> Responsibilities Between Vessels:
>>
>> If operating a power driven vessel you must give way to:
>>
>> o Any vessel not under command, such as an anchored or disabled vessel.
>> o Any vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver, such as a vessel
>> towing, laying cable, or picking up navigation markers, or a vessel
>> constrained by its draft such as a large ship in a channel.
>> o A vessel engaged in commercial fishing
>> o A sailing vessel (sail only) unless it is overtaking
>>
>> If operating a sailing vessel (sail only), you must give way to:
>> o Any vessel not under command
>> o Any vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver
>> o A vessel engaged in commercial fishing
>>
>> Michael and I sail in waters where we see all kinds of vessels
>> (including submarines) all the time.  Every summer we read about a
>> novice sailor getting killed while yelling "I've got the right of way!"
>> -- when in fact he doesn't.
>>
>> All military vessels have right-of-way over all other vessels.  Next
>> comes the Coast Guard.  Next comes emergency vessels.  Next comes 
>> tugboats.
>>
>> Then comes vessels engaged in commercial fishing.
>>
>> But way up at the top are vessels not under command, and just below is
>> any vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver.
>>
>> As a practical matter try to think of a commercial vessel that is not
>> restricted in its ability to maneuver.  We already know that if you try
>> to turn a cruise ship too fast it can tip over.  A Cigarette boat,
>> traveling at 90 miles an hour, is restricted in its ability to
>> maneuver.  Sailboats must give way -- early!
>>
>> Some of these big commercial boats have 40 foot drafts.
>>
>> I can't think of a commercial boat that wouldn't have right of way over
>> a sail boat under sail--can you?
>>
>> Experienced sailors always follow "The Law of Tonnage": if something
>> bigger than you is bearing down on you -- get out of its way!
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> PS -- Anchored vessels must be in designated anchorages -- you can't
>> anchor in the middle of a busy waterway and think for one second that
>> you've got the right of way.  And if you're disabled, but the other boat
>> can't maneuver, and can't give way...don't get disabled in front of big
>> boats--it won't turn out well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>> > I'm curious too. Commercial fishing vessels are stand on over sail 
>> boats, when they're engaged in fishing. ANY boat (commercial or 
>> other) limited in their ability to manuever and in a channel is stand 
>> on over a sailing boat as well. But I believe that the blanket 
>> statement that all commercial vessels have the right-of-way over any 
>> sailing vessel is incorrect.
>> >
>> > Herb Parsons
>> >
>> > S/V O'Jure
>> > 1976 O'Day 25
>> > Lake Grapevine, N TX
>> >
>> > S/V Reve de Papa
>> > 1971 Coronado 35
>> > Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>> >
>> >
>> >>>> Tatflies at cs.com 7/26/2006 10:29:26 pm >>>
>> >>>>
>> > Bill,
>> >
>> > Why do commercial vessels have the right-of-way over any sailing 
>> vessel
>> > (unless limited in their ability to manuever)?
>> >
>> > Tom T.
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