[Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for David
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Mon Jun 26 10:48:06 EDT 2006
Wally,
What sailing issues do we disagree on?
The Loos gauge has a lot of numbers on it. Does the "150" or "200"
refer to pounds? I just don't know.
I put 150 to 200 pounds of weight on my towing hitch. I can't lift it.
Yet I can deflect my stays with 2 fingers.
How many pounds of pressure are on guitar strings?
It seems to me that people are allowing mechanical gauges to trump
common sense.
I don't put sleeves around my turnbuckles so I can get to them all the
time. I use cable ties to secure them, so I can quickly readjust any
time I'm not satisfied with my rig tuning. I tune my rig to adjust the
angle of the mast relative to the wind, not to achieve equal stay
pressure when there is no wind at all. I do most of my tuning
dynamically on the water, adjusting the leeward stays while they have no
pressure on them at all--this obviates the need for pliers or a wrench,
and ensures the least potential for damage to the stays or rigging.
I tune the length of my stays, not the pressure on them. I avoid over
tightening by strumming -- if I can't hear a note, they are too tight.
There is no safety issue regarding too slack stays. If they are all
hand tight at rest, they won't be over tight in use.
It is impossible to know everything about the boat when you first get
it. Highly technical procedures for simple tasks are easily
misinterpreted. KISS.
Bill Effros
TN Rhodey wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Well we both agree that we tune by ear and we don't know how to use a
> loos gauge. We also agree that you should not tighten something so
> much it breaks. We both agree that neither Stan, you, or I have
> trouble pointing. All of the above is fairly obvious to me so I am not
> sure why you even bring up.
>
> I am sure you have noted the two posts stating that hand tight is
> around 150#.
>
> Regarding Roger; generally on sailing issues I took his side. Non
> sailing subjects we often disagreed. I will count out board motors as
> non sailing. :-) As for fellow list member Bill E......we generally
> agree on non sailing and I must admit we often disagree on sailing
> issues. I do think you are wearing clothes though. :-)
> Wally
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for
>> David
>> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:17:24 -0400
>>
>> Wally,
>>
>> I also tune rigging by eye and ear.
>>
>> As noted by Rummy, much of what Roger said made absolutely no sense.
>> It was an "emperor has no clothes on" thing. I think he left the
>> list because people were starting to call him on it.
>>
>> I've never seen Loos instructions, and would love to have someone
>> post them to list. (If it's OK with Rose.)
>>
>> Roger recommends 200 pounds. But Herb is looking at the instructions
>> and he says 15%. Does the thing measure in pounds or in percentages?
>>
>> The man who makes the boat tells you he tunes the boat by eye and
>> ear. He has no trouble sailing into the wind, and I don't either.
>>
>> The point of wire stay rigging is that it doesn't move much once
>> set. If you have 200 pounds of force in each of 9 different
>> directions, how do your stays get slack to leeward?
>>
>> I never put tools on my stays. It looks to me like a Loos gauge has
>> the potential to damage the stay.
>>
>> There is no reason to put so much pressure on mounting hardware that
>> you damage the structure of your boat.
>>
>> If your stays are not exactly the same length, you will have to put
>> different pressure on different stays to keep the sail where you want
>> it relative to your boat and the wind. Making the pressure on all
>> stays equal is silly and counterproductive.
>>
>> Sometimes I really miss Roger. I'd love to see what he has to say
>> about all this.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> Tunig your rig is in no way like slamming a single car door. Your
>>> car doors are independent. It would be like slamming all 4 car doors
>>> using equal force.
>>>
>>> Did you read Roger's post in the FAQ. He goes through his process
>>> and answers most of your questions. I have no idea if he is right.
>>>
>>> Many on this list complain they can't point high into the wind. I am
>>> of the opinion that most of these people have boats way out of tune.
>>> I also think the GB furler doesn't allow you to tighten jib luff
>>> properly compounding the situation.
>>>
>>> You know I like to keep it simple but if you don't have experience
>>> having a way to measure is helpful. Brad uses an example of
>>> experienced mechanic not using torque wrench. I wonder if he would
>>> wants all the guys to go through training never using a torque
>>> wrench. If you don't have a point of reference (experience helps!)
>>> you are just maKing a wild guess.
>>>
>>> Wally
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer
>>>> for David
>>>> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:10:34 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Oh, please...
>>>>
>>>> This is like a discussion of how hard to slam a car door. You only
>>>> have to slam it hard enough to close. The car can take a harder
>>>> slam, but you are not accomplishing anything good for the car by
>>>> slamming the door harder.
>>>>
>>>> We should banish Loos gauges from this list. They are supposed to
>>>> be calibrated for the type and size of stay they are measuring.
>>>> They don't measure in pounds--you interpolate index numbers.
>>>>
>>>> Where the hell did 200 pounds come from, anyhow?
>>>>
>>>> Is that 200 pounds when the other 8 shrouds are slack, or 200
>>>> pounds when the other 8 shrouds also each show 200 pounds? Or is
>>>> it 200 pounds total, divided by 9 shrouds?
>>>>
>>>> The tension on the back stay which holds up the traveler is
>>>> supposed to be the same as the tension on the lower side stays?
>>>>
>>>> If the mast is not perpendicular to the boat, but all the stays
>>>> register 200 pounds--is the rigging ok?
>>>>
>>>> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>
>>>>> Without a gauge it is hard to quantify hand tight. Perhaps someone
>>>>> should tighten hand tight and then measure? What if three people
>>>>> tightned hand tight and measured? I bet you would have 3 different
>>>>> measurements. I must admit that mine are tighter than hand
>>>>> tight....not much. Lee side shrouds still go slack. Sloppy or over
>>>>> tight, either way creates proplems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger knew how tune an R22 and he used a gauge. Did you see his
>>>>> specs? Anyone with IMF actually use a gauge? Someone should know
>>>>> this? I may have to borrow a friend's gauge and measure .....
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for
>>>>>> David
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> I would like to suppliment Captain Rummy's response to you
>>>>>> with where
>>>>>> you find documentation supporting what he is telling you. Stan,
>>>>>> aka,
>>>>>> General Boats, makes an instruction manual for the Rhodes 22.
>>>>>> With Rose's
>>>>>> permission, a copy of which is located in the Document Library of
>>>>>> this web
>>>>>> site. See:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/doclib/Rhodes22-1988-Owners-Raven.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now specifically go to pages 4 and 5, especially about the
>>>>>> guy who
>>>>>> used pliers to tighten the shrouds. So after reading the
>>>>>> instructions
>>>>>> promulgated by Stan you may begin to understand why most of use
>>>>>> just follow
>>>>>> his instuctions. Please understand that while Stan's education is
>>>>>> electrical engineering he is a nautical engineer by advocation.
>>>>>> The point
>>>>>> Rummy made is that the mast is not made to be over tighened.
>>>>>> What Rummy
>>>>>> said is supported by the instructional manual for this boat.
>>>>>> Who ever told you to use 200 pounds of tension told you
>>>>>> very wrong.
>>>>>> That kind of number may be correct for a fifty foot keel stepped
>>>>>> racing
>>>>>> sailboat, but not appropriate for a cabin (deck) stepped mast
>>>>>> without a
>>>>>> compression post from base to keel. It sounds like somebody has
>>>>>> created a
>>>>>> problem in over tensioning the stays. Hopefully the cabin is not
>>>>>> reshaped
>>>>>> permenantly.
>>>>>> Many Cat boats and other modern designs do not even use
>>>>>> stays to keep
>>>>>> the mast upright. Read about the latest model Hunter sail boats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Problem-shrouds.-t1840793.html#a5025664
>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes22 forum at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>
>
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