[Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for David

TN Rhodey tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Mon Jun 26 13:18:18 EDT 2006 

Bill My comment are in-line -

>What sailing issues do we disagree on?

The only one that comes to mind is the 170 vs 155 debate. I sided with 
Roger. You posted you could sail with full 170 and main in high winds 
without excessive healing. I can't remember the details not a big deal. What 
sailing advice of Roger's did you disagree with?
>
>The Loos gauge has a lot of numbers on it.  Does the "150" or "200" refer 
>to pounds?  I just don't know.

Nor do I. Others are posting pounds ....
>
>I put 150 to 200 pounds of weight on my towing hitch.  I can't lift it.  
>Yet I can deflect my stays with 2 fingers.

This sounds like apples and oranges. Also if you can't lift your trailer 
tongue the weight is most likely higher than you think.
>
>How many pounds of pressure are on guitar strings?

I don't play guitar, maybe Slim can help here? :-)


>There is no safety issue regarding too slack stays.  If they are all hand 
>tight at rest, they won't be over tight in use.

Wrong, there is a problem with shrouds to loose. There is not a problem with 
handtight. Shock loads would be increased plus a sloppy rig doesn't perform 
as well.

>
>It is impossible to know everything about the boat when you first get it.  
>Highly technical procedures for simple tasks are easily misinterpreted. 
>KISS.

I think tightening hand tight is about as simple as I can keep things. The 
only thing I wondered was if anyone had quanitfied. As i suspected a couple 
of people have. I also wondered if 200 would cause compression problems.

Wally

>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>
>TN Rhodey wrote:
>>Bill,
>>
>>Well we both agree that we tune by ear and we don't know how to use a loos 
>>gauge. We also agree that you should not tighten something so much it 
>>breaks.  We both agree that neither Stan, you, or I have trouble pointing. 
>>All of the above is fairly obvious to me so I am not sure why you even 
>>bring up.
>>
>>I am sure you have noted the two posts stating that hand tight is around 
>>150#.
>>
>>Regarding Roger; generally on sailing issues I took his side. Non sailing 
>>subjects we often disagreed. I will count out board motors as non sailing. 
>>:-) As for fellow list member Bill E......we generally agree on non 
>>sailing and I must admit we often disagree on sailing issues. I do think 
>>you are wearing clothes though. :-)
>>Wally
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for 
>>>David
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:17:24 -0400
>>>
>>>Wally,
>>>
>>>I also tune rigging by eye and ear.
>>>
>>>As noted by Rummy, much of what Roger said made absolutely no sense.  It 
>>>was an "emperor has no clothes on" thing.  I think he left the list 
>>>because people were starting to call him on it.
>>>
>>>I've never seen Loos instructions, and would love to have someone post 
>>>them to list. (If it's OK with Rose.)
>>>
>>>Roger recommends 200 pounds.  But Herb is looking at the instructions and 
>>>he says 15%.  Does the thing measure in pounds or in percentages?
>>>
>>>The man who makes the boat tells you he tunes the boat by eye and ear.  
>>>He has no trouble sailing into the wind, and I don't either.
>>>
>>>The point of wire stay rigging is that it doesn't move much once set.  If 
>>>you have 200 pounds of force in each of 9 different directions, how do 
>>>your stays get slack to leeward?
>>>
>>>I never put tools on my stays.  It looks to me like a Loos gauge has the 
>>>potential to damage the stay.
>>>
>>>There is no reason to put so much pressure on mounting hardware that you 
>>>damage the structure of your boat.
>>>
>>>If your stays are not exactly the same length, you will have to put 
>>>different pressure on different stays to keep the sail where you want it 
>>>relative to your boat and the wind.  Making the pressure on all stays 
>>>equal is silly and counterproductive.
>>>
>>>Sometimes I really miss Roger.  I'd love to see what he has to say about 
>>>all this.
>>>
>>>Bill Effros
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>Bill,
>>>>
>>>>Tunig your rig is in no way like slamming a single car door. Your car 
>>>>doors are independent. It would be like slamming all 4 car doors using 
>>>>equal force.
>>>>
>>>>Did you read Roger's post in the FAQ. He goes through his process and 
>>>>answers most of your questions. I have no idea if he is right.
>>>>
>>>>Many on this list complain they can't point high into the wind. I am of 
>>>>the opinion that most of these people have boats way out of tune. I also 
>>>>think the GB furler doesn't allow you to tighten jib luff properly 
>>>>compounding the situation.
>>>>
>>>>You know I like to keep it simple but if you don't have experience 
>>>>having a way to measure is helpful. Brad uses an example of experienced 
>>>>mechanic not using torque wrench. I wonder if he would wants all the 
>>>>guys to go through training never using a torque wrench. If you don't 
>>>>have a point of reference (experience helps!) you are just maKing a wild 
>>>>guess.
>>>>
>>>>Wally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for 
>>>>>David
>>>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:10:34 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh, please...
>>>>>
>>>>>This is like a discussion of how hard to slam a car door.  You only 
>>>>>have to slam it hard enough to close.  The car can take a harder slam, 
>>>>>but you are not accomplishing anything good for the car by slamming the 
>>>>>door harder.
>>>>>
>>>>>We should banish Loos gauges from this list.  They are supposed to be 
>>>>>calibrated for the type and size of stay they are measuring.  They 
>>>>>don't measure in pounds--you interpolate index numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Where the hell did 200 pounds come from, anyhow?
>>>>>
>>>>>Is that 200 pounds when the other 8 shrouds are slack, or 200 pounds 
>>>>>when the other 8 shrouds also each show 200 pounds?  Or is it 200 
>>>>>pounds total, divided by 9 shrouds?
>>>>>
>>>>>The tension on the back stay which holds up the traveler is supposed to 
>>>>>be the same as the tension on the lower side stays?
>>>>>
>>>>>If the mast is not perpendicular to the boat, but all the stays 
>>>>>register 200 pounds--is the rigging ok?
>>>>>
>>>>>A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill Effros
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>Ed,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Without a gauge it is hard to quantify hand tight. Perhaps someone 
>>>>>>should tighten hand tight and then measure? What if three people 
>>>>>>tightned hand tight and measured? I bet you would have 3 different 
>>>>>>measurements. I must admit that mine are tighter than hand 
>>>>>>tight....not much. Lee side shrouds still go slack. Sloppy or over 
>>>>>>tight, either way creates proplems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Roger knew how tune an R22 and he used a gauge. Did you see his specs? 
>>>>>>Anyone with IMF actually use a gauge? Someone should know this? I may 
>>>>>>have to borrow a friend's gauge and measure .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wally
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for 
>>>>>>>David
>>>>>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>David:
>>>>>>>      I would like to suppliment Captain Rummy's response to you with 
>>>>>>>where
>>>>>>>you find documentation supporting what he is telling you.  Stan, aka,
>>>>>>>General Boats, makes an instruction manual for the Rhodes 22.  With 
>>>>>>>Rose's
>>>>>>>permission, a copy of which is located in the Document Library of 
>>>>>>>this web
>>>>>>>site. See:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.rhodes22.org/doclib/Rhodes22-1988-Owners-Raven.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Now specifically go to pages 4 and 5, especially about the guy 
>>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>used pliers to tighten the shrouds.  So after reading the 
>>>>>>>instructions
>>>>>>>promulgated by Stan you may begin to understand why most of use just 
>>>>>>>follow
>>>>>>>his instuctions.  Please understand that while Stan's education is
>>>>>>>electrical engineering he is a nautical engineer by advocation.  The 
>>>>>>>point
>>>>>>>Rummy made is that the mast is not made to be over tighened.  What 
>>>>>>>Rummy
>>>>>>>said is supported by the instructional manual for this boat.
>>>>>>>       Who ever told you to use 200 pounds of tension told you very 
>>>>>>>wrong.
>>>>>>>That kind of number may be correct for a fifty foot keel stepped 
>>>>>>>racing
>>>>>>>sailboat, but not appropriate for a cabin (deck) stepped mast without 
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>compression post from base to keel.   It sounds like somebody has 
>>>>>>>created a
>>>>>>>problem in over tensioning the stays.  Hopefully the cabin is not 
>>>>>>>reshaped
>>>>>>>permenantly.
>>>>>>>        Many Cat boats and other modern designs do not even use stays 
>>>>>>>to keep
>>>>>>>the mast upright.  Read about the latest model Hunter sail boats.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ed K
>>>>>>>Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>View this message in context: 
>>>>>>>http://www.nabble.com/Problem-shrouds.-t1840793.html#a5025664
>>>>>>>Sent from the Rhodes22 forum at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________
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>>
>__________________________________________________
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