[Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer for David
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Mon Jun 26 14:12:47 EDT 2006
Wally,
Stan designed the R22 for the waters I sail on. For those waters the
175 is the best. Every day we get great wind and little wind. This
single sail will take full advantage of both. There is a PHRF racing
penalty for the 175, and most racers don't feel the extra speed and
power they can get out of the 175 is enough to overcome the penalty for
using it. But no one (with the exception of Roger) argues that the 175
is the less capable sail. If it were there would be no penalty for
using it.
Roger made statements about the 175 when he didn't use it, and simply
didn't know what he was talking about. That was my problem.
Similarly, Roger decided the tension on a Loos gauge for an IMF should
be 200, when he didn't have an IMF. It appears that "hand tight" -- 150
-- is the right number, and my guess is it doesn't vary whether you have
an IMF or not. But Roger's advice has newbies cranking shrouds 33%
tighter than they ought to be, and potentially damaging their boats and
rigging.
The difference between picking up a trailer tongue and strumming a
shroud is the rigidity of the thing you are trying to move. While
trailer tongues and shrouds are clearly apples and oranges, wire-rope
shrouds, and 9 strand 3/32 inch all-wire shrouds are also apples and
oranges. Loos gauges measure many types of shrouds, however 200 on one
type may require twice the force of 200 on the other type. Before you
use a Loos gauge you must know whether you are measuring an apple
shroud or an orange shroud. I don't know. I doubt all shrouds on all
Rhodes are the same.
We all come down to the same point. Hand tight at rest is the starting
point for the R22 rig. There may be reasons for making back stays
tighter. Does that make forestays tighter by the same amount? Can't
know. Can't get a loos gauge on the forestay. Should the forward side
stay be tighter than the back side stay if you make the backstays
tighter to tilt the mast backward?
Roger had a knack for providing very precise wrong answers. Because the
wrong answer was derived from an equation, few spoke up to challenge the
underlying logic, and many screwed up trying to emulate Roger's numbers.
This Loos gauge stuff is just another example. I may not know the right
answer, but I can tell you the wrong answer, and the wrong answer is set
all your stays at 200 pounds. Where I come from, this kind of talk is
called "Bafflegab" and it's dangerous on sailboats.
Bill Effros
TN Rhodey wrote:
> Bill My comment are in-line -
>
>> What sailing issues do we disagree on?
>
> The only one that comes to mind is the 170 vs 155 debate. I sided with
> Roger. You posted you could sail with full 170 and main in high winds
> without excessive healing. I can't remember the details not a big
> deal. What sailing advice of Roger's did you disagree with?
>>
>> The Loos gauge has a lot of numbers on it. Does the "150" or "200"
>> refer to pounds? I just don't know.
>
> Nor do I. Others are posting pounds ....
>>
>> I put 150 to 200 pounds of weight on my towing hitch. I can't lift
>> it. Yet I can deflect my stays with 2 fingers.
>
> This sounds like apples and oranges. Also if you can't lift your
> trailer tongue the weight is most likely higher than you think.
>>
>> How many pounds of pressure are on guitar strings?
>
> I don't play guitar, maybe Slim can help here? :-)
>
>
>> There is no safety issue regarding too slack stays. If they are all
>> hand tight at rest, they won't be over tight in use.
>
> Wrong, there is a problem with shrouds to loose. There is not a
> problem with handtight. Shock loads would be increased plus a sloppy
> rig doesn't perform as well.
>
>>
>> It is impossible to know everything about the boat when you first get
>> it. Highly technical procedures for simple tasks are easily
>> misinterpreted. KISS.
>
> I think tightening hand tight is about as simple as I can keep things.
> The only thing I wondered was if anyone had quanitfied. As i suspected
> a couple of people have. I also wondered if 200 would cause
> compression problems.
>
> Wally
>
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>>
>>
>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> Well we both agree that we tune by ear and we don't know how to use
>>> a loos gauge. We also agree that you should not tighten something so
>>> much it breaks. We both agree that neither Stan, you, or I have
>>> trouble pointing. All of the above is fairly obvious to me so I am
>>> not sure why you even bring up.
>>>
>>> I am sure you have noted the two posts stating that hand tight is
>>> around 150#.
>>>
>>> Regarding Roger; generally on sailing issues I took his side. Non
>>> sailing subjects we often disagreed. I will count out board motors
>>> as non sailing. :-) As for fellow list member Bill E......we
>>> generally agree on non sailing and I must admit we often disagree on
>>> sailing issues. I do think you are wearing clothes though. :-)
>>> Wally
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer
>>>> for David
>>>> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:17:24 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Wally,
>>>>
>>>> I also tune rigging by eye and ear.
>>>>
>>>> As noted by Rummy, much of what Roger said made absolutely no
>>>> sense. It was an "emperor has no clothes on" thing. I think he
>>>> left the list because people were starting to call him on it.
>>>>
>>>> I've never seen Loos instructions, and would love to have someone
>>>> post them to list. (If it's OK with Rose.)
>>>>
>>>> Roger recommends 200 pounds. But Herb is looking at the
>>>> instructions and he says 15%. Does the thing measure in pounds or
>>>> in percentages?
>>>>
>>>> The man who makes the boat tells you he tunes the boat by eye and
>>>> ear. He has no trouble sailing into the wind, and I don't either.
>>>>
>>>> The point of wire stay rigging is that it doesn't move much once
>>>> set. If you have 200 pounds of force in each of 9 different
>>>> directions, how do your stays get slack to leeward?
>>>>
>>>> I never put tools on my stays. It looks to me like a Loos gauge
>>>> has the potential to damage the stay.
>>>>
>>>> There is no reason to put so much pressure on mounting hardware
>>>> that you damage the structure of your boat.
>>>>
>>>> If your stays are not exactly the same length, you will have to put
>>>> different pressure on different stays to keep the sail where you
>>>> want it relative to your boat and the wind. Making the pressure on
>>>> all stays equal is silly and counterproductive.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I really miss Roger. I'd love to see what he has to say
>>>> about all this.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tunig your rig is in no way like slamming a single car door. Your
>>>>> car doors are independent. It would be like slamming all 4 car
>>>>> doors using equal force.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you read Roger's post in the FAQ. He goes through his process
>>>>> and answers most of your questions. I have no idea if he is right.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many on this list complain they can't point high into the wind. I
>>>>> am of the opinion that most of these people have boats way out of
>>>>> tune. I also think the GB furler doesn't allow you to tighten jib
>>>>> luff properly compounding the situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know I like to keep it simple but if you don't have experience
>>>>> having a way to measure is helpful. Brad uses an example of
>>>>> experienced mechanic not using torque wrench. I wonder if he would
>>>>> wants all the guys to go through training never using a torque
>>>>> wrench. If you don't have a point of reference (experience helps!)
>>>>> you are just maKing a wild guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer
>>>>>> for David
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:10:34 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, please...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is like a discussion of how hard to slam a car door. You
>>>>>> only have to slam it hard enough to close. The car can take a
>>>>>> harder slam, but you are not accomplishing anything good for the
>>>>>> car by slamming the door harder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We should banish Loos gauges from this list. They are supposed
>>>>>> to be calibrated for the type and size of stay they are
>>>>>> measuring. They don't measure in pounds--you interpolate index
>>>>>> numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where the hell did 200 pounds come from, anyhow?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that 200 pounds when the other 8 shrouds are slack, or 200
>>>>>> pounds when the other 8 shrouds also each show 200 pounds? Or is
>>>>>> it 200 pounds total, divided by 9 shrouds?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tension on the back stay which holds up the traveler is
>>>>>> supposed to be the same as the tension on the lower side stays?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the mast is not perpendicular to the boat, but all the stays
>>>>>> register 200 pounds--is the rigging ok?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without a gauge it is hard to quantify hand tight. Perhaps
>>>>>>> someone should tighten hand tight and then measure? What if
>>>>>>> three people tightned hand tight and measured? I bet you would
>>>>>>> have 3 different measurements. I must admit that mine are
>>>>>>> tighter than hand tight....not much. Lee side shrouds still go
>>>>>>> slack. Sloppy or over tight, either way creates proplems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger knew how tune an R22 and he used a gauge. Did you see his
>>>>>>> specs? Anyone with IMF actually use a gauge? Someone should know
>>>>>>> this? I may have to borrow a friend's gauge and measure .....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wally
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Problem shrouds = location of answer
>>>>>>>> for David
>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David:
>>>>>>>> I would like to suppliment Captain Rummy's response to you
>>>>>>>> with where
>>>>>>>> you find documentation supporting what he is telling you.
>>>>>>>> Stan, aka,
>>>>>>>> General Boats, makes an instruction manual for the Rhodes 22.
>>>>>>>> With Rose's
>>>>>>>> permission, a copy of which is located in the Document Library
>>>>>>>> of this web
>>>>>>>> site. See:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/doclib/Rhodes22-1988-Owners-Raven.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now specifically go to pages 4 and 5, especially about
>>>>>>>> the guy who
>>>>>>>> used pliers to tighten the shrouds. So after reading the
>>>>>>>> instructions
>>>>>>>> promulgated by Stan you may begin to understand why most of use
>>>>>>>> just follow
>>>>>>>> his instuctions. Please understand that while Stan's education is
>>>>>>>> electrical engineering he is a nautical engineer by
>>>>>>>> advocation. The point
>>>>>>>> Rummy made is that the mast is not made to be over tighened.
>>>>>>>> What Rummy
>>>>>>>> said is supported by the instructional manual for this boat.
>>>>>>>> Who ever told you to use 200 pounds of tension told you
>>>>>>>> very wrong.
>>>>>>>> That kind of number may be correct for a fifty foot keel
>>>>>>>> stepped racing
>>>>>>>> sailboat, but not appropriate for a cabin (deck) stepped mast
>>>>>>>> without a
>>>>>>>> compression post from base to keel. It sounds like somebody
>>>>>>>> has created a
>>>>>>>> problem in over tensioning the stays. Hopefully the cabin is
>>>>>>>> not reshaped
>>>>>>>> permenantly.
>>>>>>>> Many Cat boats and other modern designs do not even use
>>>>>>>> stays to keep
>>>>>>>> the mast upright. Read about the latest model Hunter sail boats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Problem-shrouds.-t1840793.html#a5025664
>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes22 forum at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
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