[Rhodes22-list] Bonnie Fuel Pump Problems

Wed Nov 8 21:40:45 EST 2006

Brad,

I was in a P2/P3 squadron too many years ago, the P2V converted from 2 props into 2 props & 2 jets outboard.  With a full load the plane just couldn't perform adequately on take-off, even at sea level.  

We hosted a P2 reserve squadron at Jax on one of their drill weekends and they used the jets for assist, unfortunately loaded to the hilt with Puerto Rican rum.  It climbed about 25' and then settled neatly into the St. John's River.  What a sight!  

Art

-----Original Message-----
>From: Brad Haslett <flybrad at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 8, 2006 8:45 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Bonnie Fuel Pump Problems
>
>Hank,
>
>I used to fly the Swearigen Metroliner (we fondly referred to it as the
>Polish cruise missle), the only civilian aircraft that came from the factory
>with a JATO bottle installed in the tail.  I never got to fire one.  My
>guess is that a JATO on a doctor killer would win you a Darwin Award.  On
>the other hand, flying the "San Antonio Sewer Pipe", otherwise known as a
>Metroliner, should put one in the running for a Darwin by itself.
>
>Brad
>
>PS - I think the discussion on fuel lines may be on the money.  We'll look
>at anything at this point.
>
>
>On 11/8/06, Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Cool!!  JATO bottles on the "Doctor Killer".  Brad, what kink of Rate of
>> Climb do you think you can get with this new mod?
>>
>> Hank
>>
>> On 11/8/06, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > USAF had a similar problem with the B-47.  Do what they did:
>> >
>> > Strap on JATO bottles for take off, fly at 90% power.
>> >
>> > Deploy an "approach chute" for landings.
>> >
>> > Bill Effros
>> >
>> > Michael D. Weisner wrote:
>> > > Hank and Brad,
>> > >
>> > > The situation the you refer to is found in a carb (normally aspirated)
>> > > equipped engine fuel bowl fill problem.  Either the float level is set
>> > too
>> > > low or the bad pump doesn't have enough pressure to open the inlet
>> > valve.  A
>> > > 12 pound output (if the gauge is correct) should be plenty of pressure
>> > to do
>> > > the job.
>> > >
>> > > I still think that the problem is related to the line going to the
>> > pump.  If
>> > > the line is kinked, the pump may have difficulty drawing enough fuel
>> > through
>> > > the high resistance of the line when at low RPM (reduced
>> output).  This
>> > is
>> > > akin to trying to breath through a narrow hose compared to a large
>> bore
>> > hose
>> > > when under water.  It is much harder to suck through the narrow
>> > tubing.  The
>> > > electric pump, which I presume is located near the tank, pushes the
>> fuel
>> > > through the line at full (30 PSI?) pressure, regardless of engine
>> speed.
>> > >
>> > > Is the problem related to both (or several) tanks?  If it is, the
>> > problem
>> > > may be in the tank selector.
>> > >
>> > > Mike
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: "Hank" <hnw555 at gmail.com>
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 12:31 PM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Brad,
>> > >>
>> > >> A slow drip, say 1 drop every 5-10 seconds, is normal even when the
>> > boat
>> > >>
>> > > is
>> > >
>> > >> not running.  The only way to eliminate drips completely is to
>> install
>> > a
>> > >> dripless shaft seal.
>> > >>
>> > >> IRT, your toy, it makes me think of the old joke, Doctor it hurts
>> when
>> > I
>> > >> cough.  So don't Cough!  So don't bring the idle down below
>> 1000!  Easy
>> > >>
>> > > fix,
>> > >
>> > >> next problem?
>> > >>
>> > >> Seriously, I used to have a similar problem on a Chevy Truck, except
>> in
>> > >> reverse.  At idle and slow speeds the engine ran fine, but at highway
>> > >>
>> > > speeds
>> > >
>> > >> the engine would sputter.  The pump was in failing mode and supplied
>> a
>> > >> reduced amount of fuel, which was fine at lower speeds, but not
>> > sufficient
>> > >> at highway speeds.
>> > >>
>> > >> Here is an idea.  In a regular carburetor, the pump sends fuel up to
>> a
>> > >> supply chamber in teh carburetor that is there to react to immediate
>> > >>
>> > > changes
>> > >
>> > >> in throttle settings.  It sounds like your pump quits working below
>> > 1000
>> > >>
>> > > rpm
>> > >
>> > >> and the engine dies once the feed chamber has been emptied.
>> > >>
>> > >> Hank
>> > >>
>> > >> On 11/8/06, Brad Haslett <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Hank & Rummy,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The issue is that the dripping continues when the engine is shut
>> off.
>> > >>>
>> > > In
>> > >
>> > >>> fact, it was dripping when I arrived at the boat after not having
>> been
>> > >>>
>> > > run
>> > >
>> > >>> for a week.  It has always dripped some while running, as it is
>> > supposed
>> > >>> to,
>> > >>> but never that much.  What causes it to drip stationary?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> While you're solving that problem, I just got back from the airport
>> to
>> > >>>
>> > > fly
>> > >
>> > >>> my airplane.  The new engine driven pump works fine at full power
>> all
>> > >>>
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > >>> way down to idle at 1000 rpm.  However, comma, when you pull the
>> idle
>> > >>>
>> > > back
>> > >
>> > >>> to 700, where it is correctly set, the fuel pressure off the engine
>> > pump
>> > >>> stabilizes at 12 pounds, which is fine, then after 30 seconds
>> suddenly
>> > >>> goes
>> > >>> to zero and the engine quits.  If you can flip on the electric pump
>> > fast
>> > >>> enough it comes back to life.  The mystery continues.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Don't you just love toys!
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Brad
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On 11/8/06, Hank < hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Brad,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> All standard stuffing boxes should drip some.  It is required to
>> keep
>> > >>>>
>> > > it
>> > >
>> > >>>> lubricated and cooled.  My Islander 36 always had some water in the
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> bilge
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> and that is normal for a lot of boats.  I didn't worry about it
>> > >>>>
>> > > freezing
>> > >
>> > >>>> as
>> > >>>> it was not "enclosed" such as inside a pipe or engine block and
>> > >>>>
>> > > couldn't
>> > >
>> > >>>> rupture anything.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> That being said, if you find that you do have stuffing box issues,
>> I
>> > >>>> highly
>> > >>>> recommend changing to a dripless system.  After, I switched mine, I
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> never
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> had any water coming in from there.  Check out
>> > >>>> http://www.shaftseal.com/index.html
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Hank
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On 11/8/06, Brad Haslett <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> Hank,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Good question.  I'm thinking the water is getting by the stuffing
>> > >>>>>
>> > > box
>> > >
>> > >>>> and
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> finding the next weakest link.  The sequence is transmission -
>> brass
>> > >>>>> coupling - rubber enclosed shaft? - and I think the stuffing box.
>> > >>>>>
>> > > To
>> > >
>> > >>> be
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> honest, I didn't have time to troubleshoot the problem.  The
>> steady
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>> drip
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> is
>> > >>>>> coming from the brass coupling just downstream from the
>> tranny.  It
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>> has
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> two
>> > >>>>> fittings that tighten against each other but I didn't have the
>> tools
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>> to
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> try
>> > >>>>> it. The water accumulates to the top of the bilge and then vents
>> > >>>>> overboard.
>> > >>>>> I'll need to fix or haul before the first good freeze.  I keep a
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>> heater
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> on
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> at 40 degrees when I'm gone during the winter but yesterday the
>> > >>>>> electricity
>> > >>>>> at the docks was off.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Any more ideas?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Brad
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> On 11/8/06, Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Brad,
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> How could the drive shaft be dripping where it connects to the
>> > >>>>>> transmission?  Where is the water coming in from?  I started to
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>> think
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> stuffing box, but it should be lower than the tranmission
>> > >>>>>>
>> > > coupling,
>> > >
>> > >>> so
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>> that
>> > >>>>>> shouldn't be a possibility.  Is the water coming in from above
>> the
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> engine
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> and then just collecting and dripping off of the shaft?
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Just some ideas.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Hank
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> On 11/8/06, Brad Haslett < flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Finally,  some good news to brighten-up a difficult yesterday.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > We
>> > >
>> > >>>>>> closed
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> on
>> > >>>>>>> the sale of our shop building near the lake and sold our tractor
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> we
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> used
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>>> bushog the place as well. The buyer for the tractor kept me
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> waiting
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> over
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> four hours and then did some last minute haggling over a
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> previously
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>> agreed
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> upon price.  Forunately for him I came unarmed. The bad news is
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> that
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> my
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> boat
>> > >>>>>>> had water in the bilge for the first time ever.  The drive shaft
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> is
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>> steadily
>> > >>>>>>> dripping where it connects to the transmission.  This may be a
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>> result
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> of
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>> grounding last year.  Anyway, the repair will probably require
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > it
>> > >
>> > >>> to
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> be
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> hauled, which  is a good idea anyway to inspect for damage.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > I've
>> > >
>> > >>>> been
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> operating on the theory of "what you don't know can't hurt you"
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> but
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> that
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> game has been played long enough.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> The DC-10 is going away in the next couple of years and I have
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > to
>> > >
>> > >>>> make
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>> the
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> leap into the digital age one way or the other.  I have been
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>> predicting
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> this
>> > >>>>>>> event all along and damned if I wasn't right.  Here is something
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> to
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> look
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> forward to.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Brad
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> --------------------------
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> *Company Cancels A380 Order *
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> MEMPHIS, Tenn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--FedEx Express, a unit of FedEx
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>> Corp.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> (NYSE:
>> > >>>>>>> FDX), announced today an agreement with The Boeing Company
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > (NYSE:
>> > >
>> > >>>> BA)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> to
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> acquire 15 new Boeing 777 Freighter aircraft with options to
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>> purchase
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> an
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> additional 15 aircraft. The decision to purchase the 777F was
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > made
>> > >
>> > >>>>> after
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Airbus announced significant delays in delivery of the A380.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > FedEx
>> > >
>> > >>>>>> Express
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> notified Airbus that it has cancelled its order for 10
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > A380-800Fs.
>> > >
>> > >>>>>>> "Global demand for air cargo and express services continues to
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> grow
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>> rapidly
>> > >>>>>>> and FedEx has made significant investments in our network to
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > meet
>> > >
>> > >>>>>>> customers'needs and fulfill our business objectives. Therefore,
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > it
>> > >
>> > >>>> was
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> necessary and
>> > >>>>>>> prudent for us to acquire the Boeing 777 Freighter." said
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> Frederick
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> W.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Smith, chairman, president and chief executive officer, FedEx
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> Corp.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>> "The
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> availability and delivery timing of this aircraft, coupled with
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> its
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>> attractive payload range and economics, make this choice the
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > best
>> > >
>> > >>>>>> decision
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> for FedEx, its customers, shareowners and employees."
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> FedEx Express continues to be Airbus' largest wide-body airplane
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> customer
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> and will add additional new and used Airbus wide-body aircraft
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > to
>> > >
>> > >>>> its
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> fleet
>> > >>>>>>> in coming years. Six new A300-600 aircraft are scheduled to join
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> the
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>> FedEx
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> fleet in 2007.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> *Boeing 777*
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> The Boeing 777 Freighter is the world's largest twin-engine
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > cargo
>> > >
>> > >>>>>> aircraft
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> with a range of more than 6,100 nautical miles and a revenue
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> payload
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>> capacity of 171,000 pounds. This represents a 2,200 nautical
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > mile
>> > >
>> > >>>>>> increase
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> in range and an additional 8,500 pounds of revenue payload over
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> the
>> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>> MD-11F,
>> > >>>>>>> which is FedEx's primary long-haul aircraft. These advantages
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > will
>> > >
>> > >>>>>> result
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> in
>> > >>>>>>> more non-stop, point-to-point transoceanic routes with shorter
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>> flight
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> times,
>> > >>>>>>> enabling improved service offerings to FedEx customers. FedEx
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>> Express
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> is
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> expected to take delivery of four of the 777 aircraft in
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > calendar
>> > >
>> > >>>> year
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> 2009,
>> > >>>>>>> eight in 2010 and the remaining three in 2011.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> "The Boeing 777F will allow FedEx Express to fly directly
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > > between
>> > >
>> > >>>>> major
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> markets and hubs in Asia, Europe and the U.S. with more freight
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>> and
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> in
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> less
>> > >>>>>>> time than it takes today, improving fuel efficiency and lowering
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>> total
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>> operating costs," said David J. Bronczek, president and chief
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>> executive
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> officer, FedEx Express.
>> > >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> > >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org , Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> __________________________________________________
>> > >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>> __________________________________________________
>> > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>> __________________________________________________
>> > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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>> > >>>>
>> > >>> __________________________________________________
>> > >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org , Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >> __________________________________________________
>> > >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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>> > >
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>> > >
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