[Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175

TN Rhodey tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 18 08:59:15 EST 2007 

Bill, I always get a chuckle when you talk about PHRF ratings and the one 
fastest sail. I guess it comes down to how you define absolute speed. I have 
never seen a post saying the 155 is fastest..... Most of us know that course 
and conditions determine the best/fastest sail for racing. To claim any sail 
is the absolute best is ignorant. Also...Are you talking top end or getting 
around a course?

In the right wind conditions (light) and course (triangle) the 170(5) is 
faster around. In heavier winds and traditional upwind-downwind race my 
money is on the 155 (max), Have you ever used mylar sails? They hold a nice 
foil even in light air. Others on this list have commented about the heavy 
170 in light air not holding shape. I sure would not want to be in a tacking 
battle for the windward mark flying a 170. The same wind would have mylar 
155 sail in nice foil. There is a reason racers use mylar. There is a reason 
most buoy racers don't use IMF, or large heavy genoas, or sails without 
battens, or cunninghams, or downhauls.

There is a higher PHRF hit for spinnaker compared to hit for 170...so 
wouldn't a spinnaker be the fastest sail?  Most serious racers know if they 
fly the kite well the hit is worth it. However the same crew may opt not to 
fly spinnaker on windy day because the PHRF hit is not worth the risk verses 
what can go wrong or break. So yes the 170 under the right conditions and 
course is the fastest sail. But different course and conditons a smaller 
sail would do better.

Your posts about PHRF and racing make it obvious you don't race. It is much 
different than day sailing. The guys I race with love when folks like you 
join in for a day at the races. Before you start eating your lunch join a 
local race fleet....if you keep an open mind you might be surprised at how 
much you learn.

Wally


>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0500
>
>Peter,
>
>Every time newbies come on the list, the racing people tell them a 150 sail 
>is faster than a 175.  They never mention that the reason for saying this 
>is based on the intricacies of PHRF racing which assigns a penalty to the 
>larger sail, and that the way the newbies are likely to use the sail they 
>will probably go faster in absolute terms with a 175. -- At least, that's 
>what the PHRF fleet thinks.
>
>But we don't really know.
>
>I know you can't wait to cream your fleet with your new sail, but...
>
>With the PHRF rating you've got, I think I could cream your fleet.  If you 
>sail a 175 and lose 9 seconds, you should still be highly competitive.  If 
>you start winning and lowering your PHRF rating you can always switch back 
>to the 150 and get the 9 seconds back.
>
>But if you cream the fleet with your 150 sail they will take so many 
>seconds off your rating that you will never be willing to lose another 9 to 
>try the 175.
>
>I'd love to know if a properly made 175 racing sail is more than 9 seconds 
>faster than a properly made 150 racing sail.  I'd be willing to put my 
>money where my mouth is to find out, but I'm not willing to get involved 
>with racing.
>
>Any interest?
>
>I know we spoke of a Rhodes PHRF racing fleet last year which tries to 
>handicap all the different variations of our "one design" boat along with 
>the differing abilities of our captains, and if we can get others to 
>contribute time to the idea, I remain game.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>Peter Thorn wrote:
>>Wally,
>>
>>Of course I am planning to share the info about my new Cruising Direct 
>>sail
>>from with da list.  Dan Calore is working on a graphic image showing the
>>high clew and the "molds" they use to design the sail shape.  I'll pass it
>>on when I get it.
>>
>>Basically, a light air sail needs to be lightweight.  Raven has a 20+ y/o
>>Lee 175 that's 5-6oz and when the wind is really light it just won't fill 
>>-- but it has hard a very, very long useful life at that cloth weight.
>>Granted, I probably race in conditions when most would furl and motor, but
>>with the right sail you can keep going.  The new sail is Dacron on one 
>>side
>>and Mylar on the other.  It's 3.2 oz with a white leech/foot "coating" for
>>UV so it can be left on the CDI.  Dan says the sail is designed to a 
>>little
>>over 30 knots (before it blows apart) and should last about 7 years the 
>>way
>>I sail.  By contrast, their Dacron sail would be about $200 cheaper and
>>weigh about 4.7 oz.  But it won't hold a great shape for as long as the
>>laminated cloth sail will, so I think the laminate actually gives longer
>>"great sail shape" life.
>>
>>The standard GBI issue Doyle 175 is a pretty good compromise for those 
>>with
>>only one headsail.  It's at best in 6-10, needs to be furled much over 
>>that
>>and, as mentioned above, my heavy old Lee 175 won't hold shape in very 
>>light
>>air.   In PHRF racing it would also accrue a 9 point rating penalty and I
>>just didn't want to go there...
>>
>>The sail is built to measurements I took off  Raven's and her CDI.
>>Fortunately, Raven came with a max length CDI, only short by about 5" from
>>the mast crane.
>>
>>As I recall:
>>
>>     38-40% maximum draft forward
>>     enough twist to clear the spreaders, not much more
>>     high clew - about 2' ( I like to see to leeward)
>>     max luff (CDI - 1")
>>     leech is slight concave
>>     foot is roached
>>     optimized to set full at rear of track, car moves forward as furled
>>     max LP = 155 on the money
>>
>>I'll let you know more later.
>>
>>PT
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:42 AM
>>Subject: RE: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>
>>
>>
>>>Doug - Both of the sails that came with my boat had rope luff. I haven't
>>>used a foam luff so I can't compare but the rope luff worked great when
>>>furled.
>>>
>>>PT - I am curious about your new sail. I am ordering a sail this spring
>>>
>>and
>>
>>>half been considering all of the options. I have held off long
>>>
>>enough...well
>>
>>>actually too long. I am leaning towards dacron because I will leave the
>>>
>>sail
>>
>>>on the boat. I am guessing yours is a race sail; is there a sacrificial
>>>strip? Did you bother with window?  My current quantum sail is dacron and
>>>the sacrifical strip is a heavier grade dacron. It holds shape much 
>>>better
>>>than some of the heavier cloths used. The dacron lasted 6 years and is
>>>
>>just
>>
>>>now showiing signs of wear. I am thinging of ordering the same...did you
>>>provide actual measurements or did they have something "on file"? I know
>>>
>>you
>>
>>>will update us when you recieve....oh yeah how long did they say it would
>>>take?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Wally
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>To: "Rhodes 22 List Members" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>CC: Dan Calore <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:11:37 -0500
>>>>
>>>>Doug,
>>>>
>>>>I really don't know, but passed your note to Dan Calore, who just sold 
>>>>me
>>>>
>>a
>>
>>>>PHRF optimized semi-mylar 3.2 oz 155, and got Dan's response below.
>>>>
>>>>Cruising Direct is North's discount high volume outlet.  Sold on the web
>>>>
>>in
>>
>>>>Rhode Island, designed in San Diego (by North guys) and manufactured in
>>>>
>>Sri
>>
>>>>Lanka.  Globalization has hit sails!  The price was excellent, but I
>>>>haven't
>>>>received the sail yet.  They were responsive to my concerns for a max
>>>>
>>luff
>>
>>>>and high clew.  They guaranteed critical measurements (luff and LP) to
>>>>reasonable tolerance, +/- 2" everywhere else.  We'll see...
>>>>
>>>>Good luck with your new sail.
>>>>
>>>>PT
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Dan Calore" <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>To: "'Peter Thorn'" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:53 PM
>>>>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Peter,
>>>>>    We actually use the RopeLuff pad as well.   As far as cost goes the
>>>>>ropeluff is cost more money to manufacture and install then a foam
>>>>>
>>luff.
>>
>>>>>North Sails is using the Ropeluff pads on almost every sail, because
>>>>>
>>>>they
>>>>
>>>>>maintain their shape over the life of the sail better then a foam
>>>>>
>>luff,
>>
>>>>they
>>>>
>>>>>do not absorb water  or mildew as quickly as a foam luff either.
>>>>>
>>>>Another
>>>>
>>>>>advantage is that you can remove the rope from the luff pocket and
>>>>>
>>>>reinstall
>>>>
>>>>>it relatively easily if you so desire.   Having sailed with both the
>>>>>
>>>>foam
>>>>
>>>>>and rope I think that the ropeluff gives you better shape when
>>>>>
>>partially
>>
>>>>>furled and would go with that on my own boat.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter I hope this helps, if you need more detail please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dan Calore
>>>>>Cruising Direct Sails
>>>>>North Sails
>>>>>1-888-424-7328
>>>>>1-401-366-6012
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:43 PM
>>>>>To: Dan Calore
>>>>>Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>
>>>>>Dan,
>>>>>
>>>>>This came in on the Rhodes 22 list-serve today.  I would appreciate
>>>>>
>>your
>>
>>>>>comments.  As I recall you use foam luffs, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>PT
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Gardner, Douglas (LNG-DAY)" <douglas.gardner at lexisnexis.com>
>>>>>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:27 PM
>>>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi everybody,
>>>>>
>>>>>Do any of you have experience with a rope luff pad?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I just received my new 150% Genoa, and had specified a seafoam luff
>>>>>
>>pad.
>>
>>>>>However, it was delivered from Doyle with a rope luff pad.  I know
>>>>>
>>that
>>
>>>>>North is touting the rope luff as the next great thing (doesn't
>>>>>compress, doesn't absorb water, etc.).  But it seems to me that its
>>>>>greatest advantage is that it is easy to install, and that is probably
>>>>>why Doyle is going with it too.  Stan said that all of their larger
>>>>>sails still come with the foam pad, so he doesn't know what is going
>>>>>
>>on.
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Before I send it back to Doyle and tell them to send me what I asked
>>>>>for, I'd like some opinions on whether or not I should be glad I have
>>>>>the rope luff pad instead of the foam pad. My web searches haven't
>>>>>turned up anything but the company propaganda, so I really don't have
>>>>>
>>an
>>
>>>>>objective opinion.  I won't have the opportunity to try it until May,
>>>>>and my guess is that will be a little late to tell them to do it
>>>>>
>>right!
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--Doug Gardner
>>>>>
>>>>>s/v Fretnaught
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>
>>>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>
>>>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>
>>>>__________________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>
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