[Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
Bill Effros
bill at effros.com
Sun Feb 18 12:15:02 EST 2007
Wally,
I once served on a PHRF rating committee, even though I have no interest
in sailing per se.
Our job was to try to keep the races fair. Ideally, under PHRF, every
sailor can win the race on any day. The handicap is supposed to make it
possible for there to be an absolute tie, by handicapping both the
equipment on board, and the ability of the sailor.
I left the committee because the sailors cheat. They do poorly in
unimportant races, and then come out of nowhere to win the big ones.
They switch equipment on board to change their boat's characteristics in
ways that can't be detected. (Blowing out water ballast during a light
wind race is an easy example, hard to prove, except that only one boat
is moving so you know what is happening.)
Again, I reference our newbies. I see many people getting 155s because
others on the list say they are "faster" (Roger used to say that all the
time).
As a cruising boat the 175 is the best sail. In some circumstances, the
155 is a better choice. (Jay never has light wind--a 155 is a much
better sail for him.)
Around here, we chuckle about people who spend all their time sailing in
triangles. There is much to be learned in a short period of time from
racing around buoys, but it all seems to quickly degenerate into winning
at all costs with little more learned in the actual sailing department.
Many of the winners turn out to be better cheats than they are sailors.
I have a hunch that a properly made 175 on an R-22 is more than 9
seconds faster than a 155 under certain conditions, and that if you can
spot those conditions you are more likely to win buoy races with a 175
and a 9 second penalty than you will with a 155 and no penalty.
If I can find someone to test this theory for me, I think Stan can make
a better 175 for all of us.
Until then, I want most newbies who are in the process of configuring
their boats to understand that except for racing (maybe) and certain
bodies of water, the 175 is the sail designed for the boat.
Bill Effros
TN Rhodey wrote:
> Bill, I always get a chuckle when you talk about PHRF ratings and the
> one fastest sail. I guess it comes down to how you define absolute
> speed. I have never seen a post saying the 155 is fastest..... Most of
> us know that course and conditions determine the best/fastest sail for
> racing. To claim any sail is the absolute best is ignorant. Also...Are
> you talking top end or getting around a course?
>
> In the right wind conditions (light) and course (triangle) the 170(5)
> is faster around. In heavier winds and traditional upwind-downwind
> race my money is on the 155 (max), Have you ever used mylar sails?
> They hold a nice foil even in light air. Others on this list have
> commented about the heavy 170 in light air not holding shape. I sure
> would not want to be in a tacking battle for the windward mark flying
> a 170. The same wind would have mylar 155 sail in nice foil. There is
> a reason racers use mylar. There is a reason most buoy racers don't
> use IMF, or large heavy genoas, or sails without battens, or
> cunninghams, or downhauls.
>
> There is a higher PHRF hit for spinnaker compared to hit for 170...so
> wouldn't a spinnaker be the fastest sail? Most serious racers know if
> they fly the kite well the hit is worth it. However the same crew may
> opt not to fly spinnaker on windy day because the PHRF hit is not
> worth the risk verses what can go wrong or break. So yes the 170 under
> the right conditions and course is the fastest sail. But different
> course and conditons a smaller sail would do better.
>
> Your posts about PHRF and racing make it obvious you don't race. It is
> much different than day sailing. The guys I race with love when folks
> like you join in for a day at the races. Before you start eating your
> lunch join a local race fleet....if you keep an open mind you might be
> surprised at how much you learn.
>
> Wally
>
>
>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0500
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> Every time newbies come on the list, the racing people tell them a
>> 150 sail is faster than a 175. They never mention that the reason
>> for saying this is based on the intricacies of PHRF racing which
>> assigns a penalty to the larger sail, and that the way the newbies
>> are likely to use the sail they will probably go faster in absolute
>> terms with a 175. -- At least, that's what the PHRF fleet thinks.
>>
>> But we don't really know.
>>
>> I know you can't wait to cream your fleet with your new sail, but...
>>
>> With the PHRF rating you've got, I think I could cream your fleet.
>> If you sail a 175 and lose 9 seconds, you should still be highly
>> competitive. If you start winning and lowering your PHRF rating you
>> can always switch back to the 150 and get the 9 seconds back.
>>
>> But if you cream the fleet with your 150 sail they will take so many
>> seconds off your rating that you will never be willing to lose
>> another 9 to try the 175.
>>
>> I'd love to know if a properly made 175 racing sail is more than 9
>> seconds faster than a properly made 150 racing sail. I'd be willing
>> to put my money where my mouth is to find out, but I'm not willing to
>> get involved with racing.
>>
>> Any interest?
>>
>> I know we spoke of a Rhodes PHRF racing fleet last year which tries
>> to handicap all the different variations of our "one design" boat
>> along with the differing abilities of our captains, and if we can get
>> others to contribute time to the idea, I remain game.
>>
>> Bill Effros
>>
>> Peter Thorn wrote:
>>> Wally,
>>>
>>> Of course I am planning to share the info about my new Cruising
>>> Direct sail
>>> from with da list. Dan Calore is working on a graphic image showing
>>> the
>>> high clew and the "molds" they use to design the sail shape. I'll
>>> pass it
>>> on when I get it.
>>>
>>> Basically, a light air sail needs to be lightweight. Raven has a
>>> 20+ y/o
>>> Lee 175 that's 5-6oz and when the wind is really light it just won't
>>> fill -- but it has hard a very, very long useful life at that cloth
>>> weight.
>>> Granted, I probably race in conditions when most would furl and
>>> motor, but
>>> with the right sail you can keep going. The new sail is Dacron on
>>> one side
>>> and Mylar on the other. It's 3.2 oz with a white leech/foot
>>> "coating" for
>>> UV so it can be left on the CDI. Dan says the sail is designed to a
>>> little
>>> over 30 knots (before it blows apart) and should last about 7 years
>>> the way
>>> I sail. By contrast, their Dacron sail would be about $200 cheaper and
>>> weigh about 4.7 oz. But it won't hold a great shape for as long as the
>>> laminated cloth sail will, so I think the laminate actually gives
>>> longer
>>> "great sail shape" life.
>>>
>>> The standard GBI issue Doyle 175 is a pretty good compromise for
>>> those with
>>> only one headsail. It's at best in 6-10, needs to be furled much
>>> over that
>>> and, as mentioned above, my heavy old Lee 175 won't hold shape in
>>> very light
>>> air. In PHRF racing it would also accrue a 9 point rating penalty
>>> and I
>>> just didn't want to go there...
>>>
>>> The sail is built to measurements I took off Raven's and her CDI.
>>> Fortunately, Raven came with a max length CDI, only short by about
>>> 5" from
>>> the mast crane.
>>>
>>> As I recall:
>>>
>>> 38-40% maximum draft forward
>>> enough twist to clear the spreaders, not much more
>>> high clew - about 2' ( I like to see to leeward)
>>> max luff (CDI - 1")
>>> leech is slight concave
>>> foot is roached
>>> optimized to set full at rear of track, car moves forward as furled
>>> max LP = 155 on the money
>>>
>>> I'll let you know more later.
>>>
>>> PT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:42 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Doug - Both of the sails that came with my boat had rope luff. I
>>>> haven't
>>>> used a foam luff so I can't compare but the rope luff worked great
>>>> when
>>>> furled.
>>>>
>>>> PT - I am curious about your new sail. I am ordering a sail this
>>>> spring
>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>> half been considering all of the options. I have held off long
>>>>
>>> enough...well
>>>
>>>> actually too long. I am leaning towards dacron because I will leave
>>>> the
>>>>
>>> sail
>>>
>>>> on the boat. I am guessing yours is a race sail; is there a
>>>> sacrificial
>>>> strip? Did you bother with window? My current quantum sail is
>>>> dacron and
>>>> the sacrifical strip is a heavier grade dacron. It holds shape much
>>>> better
>>>> than some of the heavier cloths used. The dacron lasted 6 years and is
>>>>
>>> just
>>>
>>>> now showiing signs of wear. I am thinging of ordering the
>>>> same...did you
>>>> provide actual measurements or did they have something "on file"? I
>>>> know
>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>> will update us when you recieve....oh yeah how long did they say it
>>>> would
>>>> take?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Wally
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> To: "Rhodes 22 List Members" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> CC: Dan Calore <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>> Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:11:37 -0500
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug,
>>>>>
>>>>> I really don't know, but passed your note to Dan Calore, who just
>>>>> sold me
>>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>>> PHRF optimized semi-mylar 3.2 oz 155, and got Dan's response below.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cruising Direct is North's discount high volume outlet. Sold on
>>>>> the web
>>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>> Rhode Island, designed in San Diego (by North guys) and
>>>>> manufactured in
>>>>>
>>> Sri
>>>
>>>>> Lanka. Globalization has hit sails! The price was excellent, but I
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> received the sail yet. They were responsive to my concerns for a max
>>>>>
>>> luff
>>>
>>>>> and high clew. They guaranteed critical measurements (luff and
>>>>> LP) to
>>>>> reasonable tolerance, +/- 2" everywhere else. We'll see...
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck with your new sail.
>>>>>
>>>>> PT
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dan Calore" <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>> To: "'Peter Thorn'" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>> We actually use the RopeLuff pad as well. As far as cost
>>>>>> goes the
>>>>>> ropeluff is cost more money to manufacture and install then a foam
>>>>>>
>>> luff.
>>>
>>>>>> North Sails is using the Ropeluff pads on almost every sail, because
>>>>>>
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>>> maintain their shape over the life of the sail better then a foam
>>>>>>
>>> luff,
>>>
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>>> do not absorb water or mildew as quickly as a foam luff either.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Another
>>>>>
>>>>>> advantage is that you can remove the rope from the luff pocket and
>>>>>>
>>>>> reinstall
>>>>>
>>>>>> it relatively easily if you so desire. Having sailed with both the
>>>>>>
>>>>> foam
>>>>>
>>>>>> and rope I think that the ropeluff gives you better shape when
>>>>>>
>>> partially
>>>
>>>>>> furled and would go with that on my own boat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter I hope this helps, if you need more detail please let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan Calore
>>>>>> Cruising Direct Sails
>>>>>> North Sails
>>>>>> 1-888-424-7328
>>>>>> 1-401-366-6012
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:43 PM
>>>>>> To: Dan Calore
>>>>>> Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This came in on the Rhodes 22 list-serve today. I would appreciate
>>>>>>
>>> your
>>>
>>>>>> comments. As I recall you use foam luffs, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Gardner, Douglas (LNG-DAY)" <douglas.gardner at lexisnexis.com>
>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:27 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do any of you have experience with a rope luff pad?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just received my new 150% Genoa, and had specified a seafoam luff
>>>>>>
>>> pad.
>>>
>>>>>> However, it was delivered from Doyle with a rope luff pad. I know
>>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>>> North is touting the rope luff as the next great thing (doesn't
>>>>>> compress, doesn't absorb water, etc.). But it seems to me that its
>>>>>> greatest advantage is that it is easy to install, and that is
>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> why Doyle is going with it too. Stan said that all of their larger
>>>>>> sails still come with the foam pad, so he doesn't know what is going
>>>>>>
>>> on.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before I send it back to Doyle and tell them to send me what I asked
>>>>>> for, I'd like some opinions on whether or not I should be glad I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> the rope luff pad instead of the foam pad. My web searches haven't
>>>>>> turned up anything but the company propaganda, so I really don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>> an
>>>
>>>>>> objective opinion. I won't have the opportunity to try it until
>>>>>> May,
>>>>>> and my guess is that will be a little late to tell them to do it
>>>>>>
>>> right!
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Doug Gardner
>>>>>>
>>>>>> s/v Fretnaught
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
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