[Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175

TN Rhodey tnrhodey at hotmail.com
Mon Feb 19 08:23:24 EST 2007 

Bill, Finally you get it! As you say the 175 is the best sail for the 
cruiser....and a 155 in some circumstances is better. Too bad your fleet was 
so full of cheaters. I have had more problem with tempers than out right 
cheating. As a kid we raced one design...first sunfishes, than lasers, than 
lidos. The Lidos were actually fleet boats so you knew everyone had pretty 
much the same thing. Very fair racing.

Wally


>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:15:02 -0500
>
>Wally,
>
>I once served on a PHRF rating committee, even though I have no interest in 
>sailing per se.
>
>Our job was to try to keep the races fair.  Ideally, under PHRF, every 
>sailor can win the race on any day.  The handicap is supposed to make it 
>possible for there to be an absolute tie, by handicapping both the 
>equipment on board, and the ability of the sailor.
>
>I left the committee because the sailors cheat.  They do poorly in 
>unimportant races, and then come out of nowhere to win the big ones.  They 
>switch equipment on board to change their boat's characteristics in ways 
>that can't be detected.  (Blowing out water ballast during a light wind 
>race is an easy example, hard to prove, except that only one boat is moving 
>so you know what is happening.)
>
>Again, I reference our newbies.  I see many people getting 155s because 
>others on the list say they are "faster" (Roger used to say that all the 
>time).
>
>As a cruising boat the 175 is the best sail.  In some circumstances, the 
>155 is a better choice.  (Jay never has light wind--a 155 is a much better 
>sail for him.)
>
>Around here, we chuckle about people who spend all their time sailing in 
>triangles.  There is much to be learned in a short period of time from 
>racing around buoys, but it all seems to quickly degenerate into winning at 
>all costs with little more learned in the actual sailing department.  Many 
>of the winners turn out to be better cheats than they are sailors.
>
>I have a hunch that a properly made 175 on an R-22 is more than 9 seconds 
>faster than a 155 under certain conditions, and that if you can spot those 
>conditions you are more likely to win buoy races with a 175 and a 9 second 
>penalty than you will with a 155 and no penalty.
>
>If I can find someone to test this theory for me, I think Stan can make a 
>better 175 for all of us.
>
>Until then, I want most newbies who are in the process of configuring their 
>boats to understand that except for racing (maybe) and certain bodies of 
>water, the 175 is the sail designed for the boat.
>
>Bill Effros
>
>
>
>
>
>TN Rhodey wrote:
>>Bill, I always get a chuckle when you talk about PHRF ratings and the one 
>>fastest sail. I guess it comes down to how you define absolute speed. I 
>>have never seen a post saying the 155 is fastest..... Most of us know that 
>>course and conditions determine the best/fastest sail for racing. To claim 
>>any sail is the absolute best is ignorant. Also...Are you talking top end 
>>or getting around a course?
>>
>>In the right wind conditions (light) and course (triangle) the 170(5) is 
>>faster around. In heavier winds and traditional upwind-downwind race my 
>>money is on the 155 (max), Have you ever used mylar sails? They hold a 
>>nice foil even in light air. Others on this list have commented about the 
>>heavy 170 in light air not holding shape. I sure would not want to be in a 
>>tacking battle for the windward mark flying a 170. The same wind would 
>>have mylar 155 sail in nice foil. There is a reason racers use mylar. 
>>There is a reason most buoy racers don't use IMF, or large heavy genoas, 
>>or sails without battens, or cunninghams, or downhauls.
>>
>>There is a higher PHRF hit for spinnaker compared to hit for 170...so 
>>wouldn't a spinnaker be the fastest sail?  Most serious racers know if 
>>they fly the kite well the hit is worth it. However the same crew may opt 
>>not to fly spinnaker on windy day because the PHRF hit is not worth the 
>>risk verses what can go wrong or break. So yes the 170 under the right 
>>conditions and course is the fastest sail. But different course and 
>>conditons a smaller sail would do better.
>>
>>Your posts about PHRF and racing make it obvious you don't race. It is 
>>much different than day sailing. The guys I race with love when folks like 
>>you join in for a day at the races. Before you start eating your lunch 
>>join a local race fleet....if you keep an open mind you might be surprised 
>>at how much you learn.
>>
>>Wally
>>
>>
>>>From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Campaigning a 175
>>>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:16:04 -0500
>>>
>>>Peter,
>>>
>>>Every time newbies come on the list, the racing people tell them a 150 
>>>sail is faster than a 175.  They never mention that the reason for saying 
>>>this is based on the intricacies of PHRF racing which assigns a penalty 
>>>to the larger sail, and that the way the newbies are likely to use the 
>>>sail they will probably go faster in absolute terms with a 175. -- At 
>>>least, that's what the PHRF fleet thinks.
>>>
>>>But we don't really know.
>>>
>>>I know you can't wait to cream your fleet with your new sail, but...
>>>
>>>With the PHRF rating you've got, I think I could cream your fleet.  If 
>>>you sail a 175 and lose 9 seconds, you should still be highly 
>>>competitive.  If you start winning and lowering your PHRF rating you can 
>>>always switch back to the 150 and get the 9 seconds back.
>>>
>>>But if you cream the fleet with your 150 sail they will take so many 
>>>seconds off your rating that you will never be willing to lose another 9 
>>>to try the 175.
>>>
>>>I'd love to know if a properly made 175 racing sail is more than 9 
>>>seconds faster than a properly made 150 racing sail.  I'd be willing to 
>>>put my money where my mouth is to find out, but I'm not willing to get 
>>>involved with racing.
>>>
>>>Any interest?
>>>
>>>I know we spoke of a Rhodes PHRF racing fleet last year which tries to 
>>>handicap all the different variations of our "one design" boat along with 
>>>the differing abilities of our captains, and if we can get others to 
>>>contribute time to the idea, I remain game.
>>>
>>>Bill Effros
>>>
>>>Peter Thorn wrote:
>>>>Wally,
>>>>
>>>>Of course I am planning to share the info about my new Cruising Direct 
>>>>sail
>>>>from with da list.  Dan Calore is working on a graphic image showing the
>>>>high clew and the "molds" they use to design the sail shape.  I'll pass 
>>>>it
>>>>on when I get it.
>>>>
>>>>Basically, a light air sail needs to be lightweight.  Raven has a 20+ 
>>>>y/o
>>>>Lee 175 that's 5-6oz and when the wind is really light it just won't 
>>>>fill -- but it has hard a very, very long useful life at that cloth 
>>>>weight.
>>>>Granted, I probably race in conditions when most would furl and motor, 
>>>>but
>>>>with the right sail you can keep going.  The new sail is Dacron on one 
>>>>side
>>>>and Mylar on the other.  It's 3.2 oz with a white leech/foot "coating" 
>>>>for
>>>>UV so it can be left on the CDI.  Dan says the sail is designed to a 
>>>>little
>>>>over 30 knots (before it blows apart) and should last about 7 years the 
>>>>way
>>>>I sail.  By contrast, their Dacron sail would be about $200 cheaper and
>>>>weigh about 4.7 oz.  But it won't hold a great shape for as long as the
>>>>laminated cloth sail will, so I think the laminate actually gives longer
>>>>"great sail shape" life.
>>>>
>>>>The standard GBI issue Doyle 175 is a pretty good compromise for those 
>>>>with
>>>>only one headsail.  It's at best in 6-10, needs to be furled much over 
>>>>that
>>>>and, as mentioned above, my heavy old Lee 175 won't hold shape in very 
>>>>light
>>>>air.   In PHRF racing it would also accrue a 9 point rating penalty and 
>>>>I
>>>>just didn't want to go there...
>>>>
>>>>The sail is built to measurements I took off  Raven's and her CDI.
>>>>Fortunately, Raven came with a max length CDI, only short by about 5" 
>>>>from
>>>>the mast crane.
>>>>
>>>>As I recall:
>>>>
>>>>     38-40% maximum draft forward
>>>>     enough twist to clear the spreaders, not much more
>>>>     high clew - about 2' ( I like to see to leeward)
>>>>     max luff (CDI - 1")
>>>>     leech is slight concave
>>>>     foot is roached
>>>>     optimized to set full at rear of track, car moves forward as furled
>>>>     max LP = 155 on the money
>>>>
>>>>I'll let you know more later.
>>>>
>>>>PT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at hotmail.com>
>>>>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:42 AM
>>>>Subject: RE: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Doug - Both of the sails that came with my boat had rope luff. I 
>>>>>haven't
>>>>>used a foam luff so I can't compare but the rope luff worked great when
>>>>>furled.
>>>>>
>>>>>PT - I am curious about your new sail. I am ordering a sail this spring
>>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>>half been considering all of the options. I have held off long
>>>>>
>>>>enough...well
>>>>
>>>>>actually too long. I am leaning towards dacron because I will leave the
>>>>>
>>>>sail
>>>>
>>>>>on the boat. I am guessing yours is a race sail; is there a sacrificial
>>>>>strip? Did you bother with window?  My current quantum sail is dacron 
>>>>>and
>>>>>the sacrifical strip is a heavier grade dacron. It holds shape much 
>>>>>better
>>>>>than some of the heavier cloths used. The dacron lasted 6 years and is
>>>>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>>now showiing signs of wear. I am thinging of ordering the same...did 
>>>>>you
>>>>>provide actual measurements or did they have something "on file"? I 
>>>>>know
>>>>>
>>>>you
>>>>
>>>>>will update us when you recieve....oh yeah how long did they say it 
>>>>>would
>>>>>take?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>Wally
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "Peter Thorn" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>>>Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>To: "Rhodes 22 List Members" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>CC: Dan Calore <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>>>Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:11:37 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Doug,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I really don't know, but passed your note to Dan Calore, who just sold 
>>>>>>me
>>>>>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>>>PHRF optimized semi-mylar 3.2 oz 155, and got Dan's response below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cruising Direct is North's discount high volume outlet.  Sold on the 
>>>>>>web
>>>>>>
>>>>in
>>>>
>>>>>>Rhode Island, designed in San Diego (by North guys) and manufactured 
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>
>>>>Sri
>>>>
>>>>>>Lanka.  Globalization has hit sails!  The price was excellent, but I
>>>>>>haven't
>>>>>>received the sail yet.  They were responsive to my concerns for a max
>>>>>>
>>>>luff
>>>>
>>>>>>and high clew.  They guaranteed critical measurements (luff and LP) to
>>>>>>reasonable tolerance, +/- 2" everywhere else.  We'll see...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck with your new sail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>PT
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Dan Calore" <dan at direct.northsails.com>
>>>>>>To: "'Peter Thorn'" <pthorn at nc.rr.com>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:53 PM
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter,
>>>>>>>    We actually use the RopeLuff pad as well.   As far as cost goes 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>ropeluff is cost more money to manufacture and install then a foam
>>>>>>>
>>>>luff.
>>>>
>>>>>>>North Sails is using the Ropeluff pads on almost every sail, because
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>maintain their shape over the life of the sail better then a foam
>>>>>>>
>>>>luff,
>>>>
>>>>>>they
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>do not absorb water  or mildew as quickly as a foam luff either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Another
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>advantage is that you can remove the rope from the luff pocket and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>reinstall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>it relatively easily if you so desire.   Having sailed with both the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>foam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>and rope I think that the ropeluff gives you better shape when
>>>>>>>
>>>>partially
>>>>
>>>>>>>furled and would go with that on my own boat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter I hope this helps, if you need more detail please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dan Calore
>>>>>>>Cruising Direct Sails
>>>>>>>North Sails
>>>>>>>1-888-424-7328
>>>>>>>1-401-366-6012
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Peter Thorn [mailto:pthorn at nc.rr.com]
>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:43 PM
>>>>>>>To: Dan Calore
>>>>>>>Subject: Fw: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This came in on the Rhodes 22 list-serve today.  I would appreciate
>>>>>>>
>>>>your
>>>>
>>>>>>>comments.  As I recall you use foam luffs, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>PT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Gardner, Douglas (LNG-DAY)" <douglas.gardner at lexisnexis.com>
>>>>>>>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:27 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Rope luff pad question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi everybody,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Do any of you have experience with a rope luff pad?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I just received my new 150% Genoa, and had specified a seafoam luff
>>>>>>>
>>>>pad.
>>>>
>>>>>>>However, it was delivered from Doyle with a rope luff pad.  I know
>>>>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>>>>North is touting the rope luff as the next great thing (doesn't
>>>>>>>compress, doesn't absorb water, etc.).  But it seems to me that its
>>>>>>>greatest advantage is that it is easy to install, and that is 
>>>>>>>probably
>>>>>>>why Doyle is going with it too.  Stan said that all of their larger
>>>>>>>sails still come with the foam pad, so he doesn't know what is going
>>>>>>>
>>>>on.
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Before I send it back to Doyle and tell them to send me what I asked
>>>>>>>for, I'd like some opinions on whether or not I should be glad I have
>>>>>>>the rope luff pad instead of the foam pad. My web searches haven't
>>>>>>>turned up anything but the company propaganda, so I really don't have
>>>>>>>
>>>>an
>>>>
>>>>>>>objective opinion.  I won't have the opportunity to try it until May,
>>>>>>>and my guess is that will be a little late to tell them to do it
>>>>>>>
>>>>right!
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--Doug Gardner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>s/v Fretnaught
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Visit us at http://www.northsails.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
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>>>>>__________________________________________________
>>>>>Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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