[Rhodes22-list] etiquett

Sun Feb 18 10:49:40 EST 2007

Bill Effros,
I am also new to this type of conversation so thanks for any pointers.
I've been trying to fiqure out what BTW is.

    Jb
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"

> Sorry, Jb,
>
> We try to call people by the names they sign unless we are taunting
> them.  I would call you Jb.
>
> The Jay I mentioned was Jay on Long Beach Island, NJ with whom I try to
> spend an hour on the water on Father's Day every year.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> (See how easy it is to get off sailing topics on this list...)
>
> PS -- In terms of computer etiquette I have not changed the subject line
> on this post because I expect it to die quickly, and digest people might
> want to follow.  It's a judgment call, but as a newbie you might wonder
> why everyone just doesn't change the subject line every time they
> realize they have switched subjects.
>
> PPS -- I always sign my full name because there are enough Bills in the
> world so that at any given time there is likely to be more than one on
> the list.  Rummy doesn't have to do that, although many people never
> figure out his given name.
>
>
>
>
>
> JbTek wrote:
> > yes, I follow
> > Jb
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> >
> >
> >
> >> Wally,
> >>
> >> There are a lot of newbies currently on the list trying to figure out
> >> how to configure their boats. Most of them do not seem to possess your
> >> level of sophistication. I know what you mean, but I don't think they
> >> necessarily do.
> >>
> >> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I also sit on the lee side
> >> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is because there is less
> >> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I believe there is also a
> >> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy upright r-22 so your top
> >> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull speed is less when
heeled.
> >> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give me some good wind and I
> >> can plane upright at more than the hull speed of the boat every time.
> >>
> >> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always have enough wind. Father's
> >> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there you can't use your
> >> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat speed--we must use a GPS.
The
> >> boat doesn't have enough power to go through the water at more than
6.25
> >> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
> >>
> >> Bill Effros
> >>
> >> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My original post stated you
> >>> may have to reef sooner with IMF than standard. I wasn't really
> >>> commenting about reefing sail shape or configurations.
> >>>
> >>> One thing you need to consider is the cut of the sails unfurled and/or
> >>> reefed. This is just important as the size. To my eye it looks like
> >>> the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is higher than standard
> >>> main and perhaps a little further aft. With standard main you can
> >>> further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and cunningham controls.
> >>>
> >>> Also my boat likes a little heel and in light air I sit on lee side to
> >>> create heel....and I go faster.
> >>>
> >>> Wally
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> >>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think you must add the optimal heeling angle to your equations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle of heel, none of the
> >>>> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel, whether a standard or an
> >>>> IMF is deployed.
> >>>>
> >>>> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more sail than it needs that it
> >>>> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of wind--the only significant
> >>>> variable is the skill of the captain.
> >>>>
> >>>> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to bring the boat on plane. As
> >>>> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you can make the boat
> >>>> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone doing it while heeled
over.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim Connolly wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> It seems to me that the difference between IMF and conventional from
a
> >>>>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and the weight of the mast
> >>>>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of these are fixed weights
> >>>>> (fixed
> >>>>> height above deck with the mast raised in sailing position) and can
be
> >>>>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint of the mast (i.e.,
> >>>>> center of
> >>>>> gravity or CG).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than conventional, because it is
> >>>>> smaller).
> >>>>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical roller, the CG of the sail
> >>>>> also stays
> >>>>> at the same height above the deck. The center of effort (CE) of the
> >>>>> furling
> >>>>> sail will move down and forward as the sail rolls into the mast.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the center of effort and not the
> >>>>> center
> >>>>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination, while furling the
> >>>>> conventional
> >>>>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of the conventional mast/sail
> >>>>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the sail, which is not likely a
> >>>>> significant part of the whole.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems then to come down to the additional weight of the IMF
> >>>>> assembly with
> >>>>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I don't know this, but I am
> >>>>> sure
> >>>>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the thicker mast extrusion
> >>>>> might be a
> >>>>> factor in some wind conditions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For me, convenience trumps all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim Connolly
> >>>>> s/v Inisheer
> >>>>> '85 recycled '03
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> >>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
> >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs. IMF sails is very hard to
> >>>>> do when
> >>>>> discussing among sailors some of whom have never even seen an IMF.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes in sail size. The IMF is
> >>>>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my sail in increments of 5% of
> >>>>> total
> >>>>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change the size of their sails
> >>>>> instead
> >>>>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it as "reefing" -- it is an
> >>>>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in response to changing
> >>>>> conditions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The extra weight of the mast is insignificant. Remember that your
> >>>>> sail is
> >>>>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the smaller IMF sail. But,
> >>>>> since the
> >>>>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and can easily be trimmed to
> >>>>> sail
> >>>>> upright, the difference in performance due to weight is probably no
> >>>>> greater
> >>>>> in an IMF boat than the difference of carrying an extra bottle of
> >>>>> rum. Or
> >>>>> not.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead of the main sail. Both
are
> >>>>> infinitely adjustable while single handing. When conditions change,
> >>>>> I change
> >>>>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so easily that even a lazy
> >>>>> sailor will
> >>>>> do it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF is how well it works
> >>>>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for each other. There is no
> >>>>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend and retract the sail under
> >>>>> any
> >>>>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very narrow neck, rocks all
> >>>>> over the
> >>>>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6 hours. It is
> >>>>> irresponsible to
> >>>>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor, and most experienced
> >>>>> larger boat
> >>>>> sailors take their sails down just outside the neck, and motor to
> >>>>>
> > their
> >
> >>>>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't even stop while we retract
> >>>>>
> > our
> >
> >>>>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying to control flopping
> >>>>> sails inside
> >>>>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief. When other wives see my
> >>>>> wife
> >>>>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why they don't have sails
> >>>>>
> > like
> >
> >>>>> ours.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it would depend upon how much
> >>>>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight of mast. Way back when
> >>>>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion about this. In my
> >>>>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same you still might need to
> >>>>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on my part and I will admit
> >>>>>> I may be totally wrong.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite sensitive to subtle changes in
> >>>>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a price with IMF in mast
> >>>>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no cunnungham, no battens (except
> >>>>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use all these controls you can
> >>>>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be surprised at the
> >>>>>> difference adding a vang made even with IMF. I could still flatten
> >>>>>> the sail enough to make a big difference ...sailing much flatter,
> >>>>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the pros for IMF are well
> >>>>>> worth any cons.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> >>>>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wally,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef sooner?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bill Effros
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade offs with IMF. The sail is
> >>>>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22 would need to reef sooner
> >>>>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight aloft must have some
> >>>>>>>> effect on balance.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Wally
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima <josef508 at yahoo.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy Jack
> >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800 (PST)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems, some with sail covers so
> >>>>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several replace the slot in the
> >>>>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid could hoist the main, and
> >>>>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe) is the unlimited reef
> >>>>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains protected in the mast during
> >>>>>>>>> transport.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that the IMF mast is thicker,
> >>>>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a little, but like Stan
> >>>>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited easy to set reef points,
> >>>>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the possibility you'd need to
> >>>>>>>>> bring down the main completely because you couldn't depower
> >>>>>>>>>
> > enough.
> >
> >>>>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy Jacks where one of the
> >>>>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the sail, and we had to lower
> >>>>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard a 65 foot Schooner with
> >>>>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble than if it was a Rhodes
> >>>>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the piston powered Hoyt Jib
> >>>>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice feature.
> >>>>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175 gennoa!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was impressed with the ease
> >>>>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the main. He was using a
> >>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation manual at
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At West Marine, the small
> >>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy Jack on an R22 main sail?
> >>>>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement? Does it jam easily?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for it. I still haven't been
> >>>>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF mast & hardware on our
> >>>>>>>>>> R22.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack looked interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
> >>>>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the cockpit, next to the pop-top,
> >>>>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line. Comments?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> >>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the
> >>>>>>>> best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
> >>>>>> Experian.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> > http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOO
> >
> >>>>>> TERAVERAGE
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>
> >>>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list