[Rhodes22-list] etiquett

Sun Feb 18 10:08:07 EST 2007

Jb,

BTW means 'by the way.'

Here is a link for more internet shorthand.

elle

http://www.romulus2.com/articles/guides/shorthand/shorthand.shtml

--- JbTek <j.bulfer at jbtek.com> wrote:

> Bill Effros,
> I am also new to this type of conversation so thanks
> for any pointers.
> I've been trying to fiqure out what BTW is.
> 
>     Jb
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> 
> 
> > Sorry, Jb,
> >
> > We try to call people by the names they sign
> unless we are taunting
> > them.  I would call you Jb.
> >
> > The Jay I mentioned was Jay on Long Beach Island,
> NJ with whom I try to
> > spend an hour on the water on Father's Day every
> year.
> >
> > Bill Effros
> >
> > (See how easy it is to get off sailing topics on
> this list...)
> >
> > PS -- In terms of computer etiquette I have not
> changed the subject line
> > on this post because I expect it to die quickly,
> and digest people might
> > want to follow.  It's a judgment call, but as a
> newbie you might wonder
> > why everyone just doesn't change the subject line
> every time they
> > realize they have switched subjects.
> >
> > PPS -- I always sign my full name because there
> are enough Bills in the
> > world so that at any given time there is likely to
> be more than one on
> > the list.  Rummy doesn't have to do that, although
> many people never
> > figure out his given name.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > JbTek wrote:
> > > yes, I follow
> > > Jb
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Wally,
> > >>
> > >> There are a lot of newbies currently on the
> list trying to figure out
> > >> how to configure their boats. Most of them do
> not seem to possess your
> > >> level of sophistication. I know what you mean,
> but I don't think they
> > >> necessarily do.
> > >>
> > >> In light air, when my wife is not on board, I
> also sit on the lee side
> > >> to create heel and go faster. I believe this is
> because there is less
> > >> wetted surface when you heel an r-22. But I
> believe there is also a
> > >> shorter waterline than there is on a bow-heavy
> upright r-22 so your top
> > >> speed in winds capable of driving you at hull
> speed is less when
> heeled.
> > >> I don't think you can plane when heeled. Give
> me some good wind and I
> > >> can plane upright at more than the hull speed
> of the boat every time.
> > >>
> > >> Jay -- are you paying attention? You always
> have enough wind. Father's
> > >> Day 07? (If you try this out before I get there
> you can't use your
> > >> paddle wheel speedometer to determine boat
> speed--we must use a GPS.
> The
> > >> boat doesn't have enough power to go through
> the water at more than
> 6.25
> > >> kph, but it can go over land at 7-11 kph.
> > >>
> > >> Bill Effros
> > >>
> > >> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Bill, First as you know I do like IMF.... My
> original post stated you
> > >>> may have to reef sooner with IMF than
> standard. I wasn't really
> > >>> commenting about reefing sail shape or
> configurations.
> > >>>
> > >>> One thing you need to consider is the cut of
> the sails unfurled and/or
> > >>> reefed. This is just important as the size. To
> my eye it looks like
> > >>> the belly on most IMF sails (ours included) is
> higher than standard
> > >>> main and perhaps a little further aft. With
> standard main you can
> > >>> further tweak with downhaul, halyard, and
> cunningham controls.
> > >>>
> > >>> Also my boat likes a little heel and in light
> air I sit on lee side to
> > >>> create heel....and I go faster.
> > >>>
> > >>> Wally
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >>>> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:51:09 -0500
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Jim,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think you must add the optimal heeling
> angle to your equations.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Since the R-22 is designed for 0 degree angle
> of heel, none of the
> > >>>> weight aloft matters to the angle of heel,
> whether a standard or an
> > >>>> IMF is deployed.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> With a 175 Genny the boat has so much more
> sail than it needs that it
> > >>>> can always reach hull speed in 10 kts. of
> wind--the only significant
> > >>>> variable is the skill of the captain.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> At 0-5 degrees of heel it is possible to
> bring the boat on plane. As
> > >>>> the heel becomes greater I don't believe you
> can make the boat
> > >>>> plane--at least I've never heard of anyone
> doing it while heeled
> over.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Jim Connolly wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> It seems to me that the difference between
> IMF and conventional from
> a
> > >>>>> weight distribution standpoint is two fold:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1. The furling tube which is negligible and
> the weight of the mast
> > >>>>> extrusion, heavier than standard. Both of
> these are fixed weights
> > >>>>> (fixed
> > >>>>> height above deck with the mast raised in
> sailing position) and can
> be
> > >>>>> approximated by a weight "x" at the midpoint
> of the mast (i.e.,
> > >>>>> center of
> > >>>>> gravity or CG).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 2. The weight of the sail (less than
> conventional, because it is
> > >>>>> smaller).
> > >>>>> Since it reefs and furls on a vertical
> roller, the CG of the sail
> > >>>>> also stays
> > >>>>> at the same height above the deck. The
> center of effort (CE) of the
> > >>>>> furling
> > >>>>> sail will move down and forward as the sail
> rolls into the mast.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Net effect, furling the IMF lowers the
> center of effort and not the
> > >>>>> center
> > >>>>> of gravity of the mast and sail combination,
> while furling the
> > >>>>> conventional
> > >>>>> sail lowers both the CG and CE. The CG of
> the conventional mast/sail
> > >>>>> assembly is lowered by the weight of the
> sail, which is not likely a
> > >>>>> significant part of the whole.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It seems then to come down to the additional
> weight of the IMF
> > >>>>> assembly with
> > >>>>> sail vs. the conventional mast and sail. I
> don't know this, but I am
> > >>>>> sure
> > >>>>> somebody here does. Likely windage of the
> thicker mast extrusion
> > >>>>> might be a
> > >>>>> factor in some wind conditions.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For me, convenience trumps all.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Jim Connolly
> > >>>>> s/v Inisheer
> > >>>>> '85 recycled '03
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > >>>>> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]
> On Behalf Of Bill Effros
> > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:55 AM
> > >>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > >>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] IMF "Reefing"
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Wally,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Comparing "reefing" on standard sails vs.
> IMF sails is very hard to
> > >>>>> do when
> > >>>>> discussing among sailors some of whom have
> never even seen an IMF.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "Reef Points" result in noticeable changes
> in sail size. The IMF is
> > >>>>> infinitely adjustable. I often adjust my
> sail in increments of 5% of
> > >>>>> total
> > >>>>> sail size. I suspect most IMF sailors change
> the size of their sails
> > >>>>> instead
> > >>>>> of using the traveler. We don't think of it
> as "reefing" -- it is an
> > >>>>> adjustment the sailor can quickly make in
> response to changing
> > >>>>> conditions.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The extra weight of the mast is
> insignificant. Remember that your
> > >>>>> sail is
> > >>>>> larger, adding weight aloft compared to the
> smaller IMF sail. But,
> > >>>>> since the
> > >>>>> boat is designed to be sailed upright, and
> can easily be trimmed to
> > >>>>> sail
> > >>>>> upright, the difference in performance due
> to weight is probably no
> > >>>>> greater
> > >>>>> in an IMF boat than the difference of
> carrying an extra bottle of
> > >>>>> rum. Or
> > >>>>> not.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I carry my extra sail on the Genoa instead
> of the main sail. Both
> are
> > >>>>> infinitely adjustable while single handing.
> When conditions change,
> > >>>>> I change
> > >>>>> the set of my sails, all by myself, so
> easily that even a lazy
> > >>>>> sailor will
> > >>>>> do it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I think the biggest surprise about the IMF
> is how well it works
> > >>>>> mechanically. The sail and mast are made for
> each other. There is no
> > >>>>> compromise here, and it is easy to extend
> and retract the sail under
> > >>>>> any
> > >>>>> conditions. My wife enjoys doing it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Our harbor is busy on weekends with a very
> narrow neck, rocks all
> > >>>>> over the
> > >>>>> place, and a 10 foot tidal variation every 6
> hours. It is
> > >>>>> irresponsible to
> > >>>>> sail into the harbor if you've got a motor,
> and most experienced
> > >>>>> larger boat
> > >>>>> sailors take their sails down just outside
> the neck, and motor to
> > >>>>>
> > > their
> > >
> > >>>>> moorings. We turn on the motor and don't
> even stop while we retract
> > >>>>>
> > > our
> > >
> > >>>>> sails. When my wife sees other wives trying
> to control flopping
> > >>>>> sails inside
> > >>>>> lazy jacks she shakes her head in disbelief.
> When other wives see my
> > >>>>> wife
> > >>>>> roll up our sail they ask their husbands why
> they don't have sails
> > >>>>>
> > > like
> > >
> > >>>>> ours.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Bill,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Well I may be wrong here .....I guess it
> would depend upon how much
> > >>>>>> smaller the sail is verses the extra weight
> of mast. Way back when
> > >>>>>> (on the sailnet list) there was discussion
> about this. In my
> > >>>>>> opinion even if the mast weighed the same
> you still might need to
> > >>>>>> reef sooner with IMF. Pure speculation on
> my part and I will admit
> > >>>>>> I may be totally wrong.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The R22 is small enough to be quite
> sensitive to subtle changes in
> > >>>>>> weight and trim adjustments. You pay a
> price with IMF in mast
> > >>>>>> weight, sail cut, no downhaul, no
> cunnungham, no battens (except
> > >>>>>> for the new rev). If you know how to use
> all these controls you can
> > >>>>>> create a much flatter sail. You would be
> surprised at the
> > >>>>>> difference adding a vang made even with
> IMF. I could still flatten
> > >>>>>> the sail enough to make a big difference
> ...sailing much flatter,
> > >>>>>> fast, and higher into the wind.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Everything is a trade off and for me the
> pros for IMF are well
> > >>>>>> worth any cons.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > >>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy
> Jack
> > >>>>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0500
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Wally,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Why would a smaller sail need to reef
> sooner?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> TN Rhodey wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Joe, There are some performance trade
> offs with IMF. The sail is
> > >>>>>>>> smaller and I would think an IMF R22
> would need to reef sooner
> > >>>>>>>> but I am just guessing. That extra weight
> aloft must have some
> > >>>>>>>> effect on balance.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Wally
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> From: Joseph Hadzima
> <josef508 at yahoo.com>
> > >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Harken Lazy
> Jack
> > >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:45:37 -0800
> (PST)
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I've seen some other cool sail systems,
> some with sail covers so
> > >>>>>>>>> you only need to zip it closed. Several
> replace the slot in the
> > >>>>>>>>> main with a track system so even a kid
> could hoist the main, and
> > >>>>>>>>> it drops into right into the sail cover.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> A BIG advantage of the IMF (I believe)
> is the unlimited reef
> > >>>>>>>>> points. Another is that is remains
> protected in the mast during
> > >>>>>>>>> transport.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I've only heard one mild complaint that
> the IMF mast is thicker,
> > >>>>>>>>> and thus hinders pointing performance a
> little, but like Stan
> > >>>>>>>>> says there are trade-offs ... unlimited
> easy to set reef points,
> > >>>>>>>>> or slightly better pointing with the
> possibility you'd need to
> > >>>>>>>>> bring down the main completely because
> you couldn't depower
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > > enough.
> > >
> > >>>>>>>>> And I only had a minor problem with lazy
> Jacks where one of the
> > >>>>>>>>> lines got wrapped around part of the
> sail, and we had to lower
> > >>>>>>>>> and raise it again. But this was aboard
> a 65 foot Schooner with
> > >>>>>>>>> gaft. So it was a little more trouble
> than if it was a Rhodes
> > >>>>>>>>> with lazy jacks :-)
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Speaking of the A28 video ... I like the
> piston powered Hoyt Jib
> > >>>>>>>>> boom for down wind sailing .. very nice
> feature.
> > >>>>>>>>> Notice it's a working Jib and NOT 175
> gennoa!
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --- "Michael D. Weisner"
> <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> While viewing the AE28 video, I was
> impressed with the ease
> > >>>>>>>>>> with which the owner was handling the
> main. He was using a
> > >>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack system (installation
> manual at
> > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.harken.com/pdf/4058.pdf.) At
> West Marine, the small
> > >>>>>>>>>> Harken Lazy Jack is about $200.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Has anyone ever used the Harken Lazy
> Jack on an R22 main sail?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Does it interfere with boom movement?
> Does it jam easily?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I know, with IMF, you have no need for
> it. I still haven't been
> > >>>>>>>>>> able to justify the cost of the new IMF
> mast & hardware on our
> > >>>>>>>>>> R22.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I was just thinking that the Lazy Jack
> looked interesting.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe run the control lines (downhaul &
> > >>>>>>>>>> halyard) back to the front of the
> cockpit, next to the pop-top,
> > >>>>>>>>>> opposite to Genoa furling line.
> Comments?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Mike
> > >>>>>>>>>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> > >>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Find a local pizza place, movie theater,
> and more..then map the
> > >>>>>>>> best route!
> http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > >>>>>> The average US Credit Score is 675. The
> cost to see yours: $0 by
> > >>>>>> Experian.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >
>
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> > >
> > >>>>>> TERAVERAGE
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>>
> > >>>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >>>
> __________________________________________________
> > >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> __________________________________________________
> > >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
> www.rhodes22.org/list
> 

We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.

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