[Rhodes22-list] Question for Brad about Iraq Information (political)

[TN Rhodey]

Herb, I do see your point and I do agree that we have done some good. I
asked some additional questions because I think it is important to consider
the costs and the long term consequences. If i had to limit my response to
"is Iraq better off today"......I would say they are slightly better off in
that less people are being killed.

You say the question is not about the Kurds, Sunnis, or shites,  it is about
the people.These are the people so of course it is about them! It is their
very differences that make this complicated. This is not like the
homogeneous societies in Japan or Germany. They were pretty much united in
war and in defeat. For the most part the people looked alike and had the
same beliefs. This is not the case in Iraq. So yes this is more complicated
than your average war.

I guess my point was I am more concerned with what is good for the US and
what is the best way to fight terror. So you don't want to consider if the
war is worth the cost....well of course that is your choice. I like to look
at the whole equation before coming up with an answer. To not do so seems to
limit objective thinking.

Wally




On 7/11/07, Herb Parsons <HParsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>
> The question is no more complicated than any other question (and answers)
> about war.
>
> Was the United States "better off" after the Civil War? If you were a
> plantation owner in the south, no. If you were a slave in the south,
> probably.
>
> But, "was the plantation owner better off", or "was the slave better off"
> or any other similarities was NOT the question. The question was "was the
> United States better off".
>
> By the same token, the question about Iraq is NOT about the kurds, or the
> Sunni's, it's about the PEOPLE OF IRAQ, and no, it's not a complicated
> answer. Bet I know what most of them would say if you were to pose it to
> them...
>
> And, the question is NOT whether or not it was "worth it". I was
> specifically addressing Rummy's ridiculous assertion that "nothing's been
> accomplished". He didn't say that the accomplishments were at too great a
> cost, he said there were none.
>
> It's simply not true. Either he's delusional or not telling the truth, but
> facts are facts, there WERE positive things accomplished.
>
> Herb Parsons
>
> S/V O'Jure
>   1976 O'Day 25
>   Lake Grapevine, N TX
>
> S/V Reve de Papa
>   1971 Coronado 35
>   Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
>
> >>> "TN Rhodey" <tnrhodey at gmail.com> 7/11/2007 11:56 AM >>>
> Herb,
>
> You ask a fair question and it is a complicated answer. I would say the
> Kurds are better off (for now) and  the rest of the country is a mixed
> bag.
> If we were both to agree Iraq was better of today you would then need to
> consider was the gain worth the cost. And if they are better off today
> what
> will happen when we leave? Will they still be better of....who knows.
>
> I guess I am selfish....to me the question is are we better off. The
> answer
> to that is just as complicated but I would say we are not. A quick check
> of
> the headlines paints a pretty grim picture in the Middle East. Every
> terrorist group out there seems as strong as ever and the Taliban is
> making
> a come back. We have spent billions on a plan that doesn't provide any
> protection for our citizens with no end in sight.. Even though Saddam was
> a
> tyrant he did help keep Iran in check. Now Iran and Iraq seem to be
> unified
> in hating us. I don't see the up-side to this whole thing.
>
> I wish I didn't know anything about the history of the area and the
> culture.
> I would at least think we had a chance.
>
> Wally
> On 7/11/07, Herb Parsons <HParsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
> >
> > Rummy,
> >
> > You don't get to speak to what I believe. I never said that (though I
> > may).
> >
> > I merely pointed out that you said "nothing has been accomplished". You
> > were wrong.
> >
> > You may not LIKE what's been accomplished, but the fact remains that
> > things have been accomplished.
> >
> > I think it's the height of irony (and hypocrisy) when the left decries
> our
> > actions in places like Gitmo, then make statements lauding the
> > "stabilization" that Saddam brought about through mass murder, genocide,
> and
> > torture.
> >
> > So, just to be sure that I don't commit the same wrong as you, that of
> > putting words into your mouth, I want to be sure I understand you.
> >
> > Is it your position is that Iraq was better off under the rule of Saddam
> > than it is now?
> >
> > Herb Parsons
> >
> > S/V O'Jure
> >   1976 O'Day 25
> >   Lake Grapevine, N TX
> >
> > S/V Reve de Papa
> >   1971 Coronado 35
> >   Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana Coast
> >
> > >>> <R22RumRunner at aol.com> 7/11/2007 6:25 AM >>>
> > Herb,
> > Since you still believe that going into Iraq and getting rid of Saddam
> was
> > all worth it, what good has come of it. We have destabilized a country
> > that was
> > held together by a thread in the first place and opened up an entire
> > country
> > for  Al Qaeda to come in and get control over.
> > If you want to talk about the great schools that have been built but are
> > unfinished because contractors can't find anyone to work. Or perhaps the
> > great
> > restoration of basic services like water and sewer and electricity that
> > are
> > barely existent for a few hours each day.
> > Then there's the little thing about the remainder of the globe that
> hates
> > our guts. Yep, all in all I'd say we did one hell of a job.
> >
> > Rummy
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** See what's free at
> > http://www.aol.com.
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