[Rhodes22-list] 21st Century 'Ernie Pyle"

Wed Apr 16 07:16:57 EDT 2008

Robert,

The argument in a nutshell is this:  is Islam and and a democratic style
government compatible?  We have few successful examples to go by with Turkey
being one of the few useful models.  Great Britain is certainly struggling
with their long term democracy and the assimilation of their Muslim
population. This much is certain, radical Islam isn't compatible with any
civilized government.

I'll leave it to the historians to determine if Bush 43 was justified in
invading Iraq, and for that matter, whether his father Bush 41 was correct
in following the wishes of the coalition he assembled to not press on toward
Baghdad.  We can't put that wine back in the bottle.  The question before us
now is what is the end game?

The New York Times called for an immediate pull-out from Iraq over a year
ago in an editorial and frankly admitted it would result in genocide running
into the millions.  Somehow that was morally acceptable to the writers.
What they didn't address was who would fill the vacuum and what the effect
on the degradation of our power and authority on world affairs would be.  We
needn't speculate on who would fill the vacuum, that already happened.  In
the aftermath of the fall of Saddam and the ill planned and poorly executed
follow-up, al Queda filled the void and we have been paying for it with the
blood of our troops ever since. Can we really just extract ourselves from
Iraq, let events play out as they will, and refuse to re-engage our nation
in the region no matter what occurs? To this observer the answer is clearly
no.

I find it somewhat ironic and amusing (in a perverted sense) that the same
voices who have protested our presence in Iraq are now focusing their
attention on China's presence in Tibet and Darfur. Those issues are beyond
the time and attention-span I have available today (and Tibet is poorly
understood by Westerners) but the situation in Darfur begs a question.
China is essentially engaging in the same policy in Darfur (take the
minerals we want and to hell with whatever else happens) that the protesters
of our Iraqi engagement are advocating.  You can't have it both ways.

Whether the experiment of introducing Western style democracy to the Middle
East will be successful or not is yet to be seen.  The results of
terminating the experiment early are almost a certainty.  Our ability to
retreat to an island fortress will be no more successful in the 21st century
than it was in 20th century.  The United States did not seek out super power
status, it was foisted upon us by world events.  While we make disagree on
how softly we tread and how large a stick to carry, we are the world's
policeman and there are few if any nations capable or desirable to fill that
role.

Our planet faces two huge dilemmas, the allocation and use of scarce
resources and the growth of a toxic ideology. The former will be easier to
solve than the latter and whatever solutions we pursue, China will be the
elephant in the room.

Brad

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Robert Skinner <robert at squirrelhaven.com>
wrote:

> Brad - Responses in line.
>
> Brad Haslett wrote:
> > Robert,
> > The last sentence says it all, "There is a recognition that we did not
> > understand the extent to which their culture made it difficult to move
> from
> > an authoritarian government to liberal democracy."
> >
> > Where shall we go now?  The world is a small globe - fast airplanes make
> it
> > smaller.  We as a nation are imperfect, but what nation is better?
>  Where do
> > Chinese dissidents who fear for their lives for their involvement in
> > Tienanmen Square have to run?  In what nation can Islam evolve to the
> more
> > enlightened passages of the Koran?  If we as Americans don't believe in
> the
> > spirit of 1776, what hope do we hold for the rest of the world, most of
> > which envies our lifestyle and freedoms?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Spirit of 1776 was based on 200 years of development
> from barely surviving colony to thriving society quite
> able to take care of itself, largely devoid of internal
> frictions and generally appreciative of diverse sources
> and expressions of knowledge.
>
> Not so Iraq.
>
> Iraq is an artificial compendium of tribal factions
> recently (70 years ago) pasted together to deliver oil to
> the European communities and later to a variety of
> industrial nations.
>
> So long as the oil flow was not tampered with, we had
> little care for the treatment of the quasi-nation's
> peoples.  As OPEC grew in power, it became obvious that
> they could take their marbles and leave the game - a
> power shift not to be accepted.
>
> We propped up Saddam as long as he was singing our tune,
> but then he got too big for his britches, did the Kuwait
> thing, and we started looking for the way to edge him out
> of power.
>
> Bush Sr. figured that if he destroyed Saddam's army and
> credibility as a warrior, sanctions and popular pressure
> would force him out.  Didn't work, of course, as Saddam
> was a canny dictator.
>
> One of our first major mistakes was to see Saddam in
> terms of western mores, and his people as yearning for
> Jeffersonian democracy.
>
> Etc., etc...
>
> The point is that we have persisted in trying to deal
> with Saddam, the Iraqis, and other Mid-east leaders as
> if they were westerners.  It ain't so.
>
> And there are as many ways to express democracy as there
> are individuals.  That is part of what democracy is
> about -- not all, but part.
>
> But this is the part that we are tripping over.
>
> We need to recognize that there is a lot of work to do
> to in preparing for our style of democracy.  Even in
> our own country, there are many who do not understand
> or accept the responsibilities of democracy.
>
> Coercion and/or invasion and/or occupation are not
> effective tools in accomplishing this.  Leadership by
> example -- doing the right thing -- is far more
> effective.  Getting along with -- honoring the
> independence of -- our neighbors beats, "If you aren't
> with us, you are against us."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I'm all for realism, including the 'meat' of the article you referenced.
> > But, "where do we go now?"
> >
> > It's easy to focus on the Bush 43 failures and the difficulties of the
> Iraq
> > invasion.  That's one small part of a larger problem.  Solutions?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do the right thing.  Lead by example.  Support emerging
> countries by helping them grow straight.  Build consensus
> among the community of nations rather than saying, "I am
> the decider" to the rest of the world.  Live smaller so
> we do not need to give away out treasure and finest to
> reap resources from the rest of the world.
>
> You have heard this before.  I am required to minimize
> my footprint.  My contribution.
>
> And when dealing with vandals (AKA terrorists) shoot
> straight and fast.  No religion or politic that advocates
> murder of innocents has any validity.  This ain't PC, it's
> basic to our survival.
>
> /Robert
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Robert Skinner <
> robert at squirrelhaven.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > I am also pleased and proud of what our forces have
> > > accomplished, and moreover, how they have done so.
> > > We have put our finest in harms way, and they have
> > > conducted themselves like ladies and gentlemen.  The
> > > lapses from the highest standards of behavior that
> > > we could ask for are all the more noteable for their
> > > scarcity.  Yon's work is promising.
> > >
> > > I have had no argument with the boots on the ground,
> > > unless they have Blackwater insignia.
> > >
> > > That said, I have had and continue to have
> > > reservations about the floating definitions of the
> > > mission(s) that our armed forces have been tasked
> > > with.
> > >
> > > I firmly believe that the form of democracy that
> > > grew in the United States requires a couple of
> > > centuries of substrate civilization and tolerance
> > > to grow and find its full expression.
> > >
> > > The way in which the free Iraqi codify their use of
> > > that freedom will inevitably be different than the US
> > > Constitution.  For example, it is perfectly
> > > reasonable for them to decide to break up what was an
> > > artificial joining of disparate ethologies.  In any
> > > case, it is their country, and they must be free to
> > > evolve or reshape it as necessary.
> > >
> > > The following article, despite its origin on the left
> > > coast, has some meat, as it shows an evolving realism
> > > among the military leaders as they negotiate their
> > > way through the minefield of manifold mission
> > > statements from Bush 43.
> > >
> > > It is short, and not so much political as an
> > > interesting glimpse of the current military thinking
> > > about the situation in Iraq.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-petraeus13apr13,1,6444719.story
> > >
> > > /Robert
> > > -----------------------------------------------------
> > > Brad Haslett wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Michael Yon is at 17 on the list at Amazon today and rising fast (up
> 250
> > > in
> > > > one week and it hasn't been released yet!).  Trust me, this is not
> > > > propaganda.  Whatever you think of 43 or the war in Iraq, you at
> least
> > > > should read about the experience and professionalism of our troops
> and
> > > > especially the Marines.  The photo on the book cover still brings
> tears
> > > to
> > > > my eyes every time I see it (the story behind the photo is sad). Yon
> was
> > > > banned for awhile by the military for 'calling the shots as he saw
> them'
> > > and
> > > > is as impartial a witness as one can find for this national
> experience.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0980076323?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0980076323
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > > --
> > > Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven"
> > > Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
> > > s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
> --
> Robert Skinner  "Squirrel Haven"
> Gorham, Maine         04038-1331
> s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
> __________________________________________________
> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>