[Rhodes22-list] 21st Century 'Ernie Pyle" - Brad come on now... +Herb... +Pete...
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Wed Apr 16 13:59:02 EDT 2008
I'm no big fan of McCain either; however, national events have zeroed in
on one of the things that will turn me into one - a choice between
McCain and Clinton, or a choice between McCain and Obama.
The single most pressing issue in this country today (in my opinion) is
the war in Iraq. McCain's stand on that allows me to be a supporter
(though not an enthusiastic one).
Tootle wrote:
> Brad,
>
> All I get is a web site that requires sign in code...
>
> Herb,
>
> Your response to Pete draws a attention to the question of where should we
> go. War haters, Bush haters, use the issues as cover to advocate a Marxist
> slick talking candidate. Pete asked the question of why McCain.
>
> I am by no means a McCain supporter. Unfortunately, of the current three
> national candidates left, my answer to Pete is that he is the least of three
> evils. Hillary is a liar, dishonest. We can expect integrity of a
> candidate for President.
>
> Obama is shown to be a Marxist, and if he is not he is also a liar. He has
> shown little understanding of economics, world politics and as an unknown,
> told very little of what he would like to accomplish other than Marxist
> ideas.
>
> McCain is a maverick, unfortunately, picks as his favorite directions those
> issues which Washington insiders support. So far he has intimated that he
> will be independent of the past. The one issue that Bush haters take issue
> with is McCain’s support for victory in Iraq.
>
> War and Bush haters allege that it is a civil war. It more correctly can be
> termed a religious pogrom by Islamist extremist. Why should the USA be
> involved in combating a Islamist extremist in a foreign place? There is
> more than one good reason. Start with the Twin Towers in NYC.
>
> If you live in Maine, Seattle or Key Largo, far from ground zero, what valid
> reason for the USA to fight Islamic extremists, ‘because no one else will’.
> Just like Communism, Islamic extremist want to compel all to follow them.
> No room for other opinion. Terrorism is their tool for world domination.
>
> And then we have the fifth column in the USA, supporters of socialism, the
> Marxist dogma of world domination. The fellow travelers of Marxism openly
> attack Bush for attempting to fight another world domination political
> philosophy.
>
> Again, it is important to understand what Rev. Martin Niemöller was trying
> to say:
>
> In Germany they first came for the Communists
> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
> Then they came for the Jews,
> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
> Then they came for the trade unionists
> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
> Then they came for the Catholics
> and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
> Then they came for me
> and by that time no one was left to speak up.
>
> --The Reverend Martin Niemöller, a pastor in the German Confessing Church
> who spent seven years in a concentration camp.
>
> Now it could be said that the above is also reason to criticize Bush and his
> policies. It is also fair to ask those critics for ‘good reason’ and not
> just emotional diatribe. Freedom for humankind is a frail concept. The
> Islamists want to take it away. The Socialist want to take it away. The
> American national news media wants to take it away.
>
> Pete the answer to your question is support freedom.
>
> Ed K
> Greenville, SC, USA
>
>
>
>
>
> Brad Haslett-2 wrote:
>
>> Robert,
>>
>> This just popped-up on my radar screen and is timely for our discussion.
>>
>> http://austinbay.thearenausa.com/insight/home.jsp
>>
>> I'll digest it tonight and begin anew tomorrow. I'm about a third of the
>> way
>> through Steven Coll's new book on the Bin Laden family (Coll is the
>> author
>> of "Ghost Wars" which is a better account of Afghanistan than
>> "Wilson")
>> and so far his rendition of Middle Eastern history is in line with
>> every
>> other account I've read (and yours).
>>
>> Good night and good reading!
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Robert Skinner <robert at squirrelhaven.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Brad - Responses in line.
>>>
>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert,
>>>> The last sentence says it all, "There is a recognition that we did not
>>>> understand the extent to which their culture made it difficult to move
>>>>
>>> from
>>>
>>>> an authoritarian government to liberal democracy."
>>>>
>>>> Where shall we go now? The world is a small globe - fast airplanes
>>>>
>>> make
>>> it
>>>
>>>> smaller. We as a nation are imperfect, but what nation is better?
>>>>
>>> Where do
>>>
>>>> Chinese dissidents who fear for their lives for their involvement in
>>>> Tienanmen Square have to run? In what nation can Islam evolve to the
>>>>
>>> more
>>>
>>>> enlightened passages of the Koran? If we as Americans don't believe in
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> spirit of 1776, what hope do we hold for the rest of the world, most of
>>>> which envies our lifestyle and freedoms?
>>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The Spirit of 1776 was based on 200 years of development
>>> from barely surviving colony to thriving society quite
>>> able to take care of itself, largely devoid of internal
>>> frictions and generally appreciative of diverse sources
>>> and expressions of knowledge.
>>>
>>> Not so Iraq.
>>>
>>> Iraq is an artificial compendium of tribal factions
>>> recently (70 years ago) pasted together to deliver oil to
>>> the European communities and later to a variety of
>>> industrial nations.
>>>
>>> So long as the oil flow was not tampered with, we had
>>> little care for the treatment of the quasi-nation's
>>> peoples. As OPEC grew in power, it became obvious that
>>> they could take their marbles and leave the game - a
>>> power shift not to be accepted.
>>>
>>> We propped up Saddam as long as he was singing our tune,
>>> but then he got too big for his britches, did the Kuwait
>>> thing, and we started looking for the way to edge him out
>>> of power.
>>>
>>> Bush Sr. figured that if he destroyed Saddam's army and
>>> credibility as a warrior, sanctions and popular pressure
>>> would force him out. Didn't work, of course, as Saddam
>>> was a canny dictator.
>>>
>>> One of our first major mistakes was to see Saddam in
>>> terms of western mores, and his people as yearning for
>>> Jeffersonian democracy.
>>>
>>> Etc., etc...
>>>
>>> The point is that we have persisted in trying to deal
>>> with Saddam, the Iraqis, and other Mid-east leaders as
>>> if they were westerners. It ain't so.
>>>
>>> And there are as many ways to express democracy as there
>>> are individuals. That is part of what democracy is
>>> about -- not all, but part.
>>>
>>> But this is the part that we are tripping over.
>>>
>>> We need to recognize that there is a lot of work to do
>>> to in preparing for our style of democracy. Even in
>>> our own country, there are many who do not understand
>>> or accept the responsibilities of democracy.
>>>
>>> Coercion and/or invasion and/or occupation are not
>>> effective tools in accomplishing this. Leadership by
>>> example -- doing the right thing -- is far more
>>> effective. Getting along with -- honoring the
>>> independence of -- our neighbors beats, "If you aren't
>>> with us, you are against us."
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm all for realism, including the 'meat' of the article you
>>>>
>>> referenced.
>>>
>>>> But, "where do we go now?"
>>>>
>>>> It's easy to focus on the Bush 43 failures and the difficulties of the
>>>>
>>> Iraq
>>>
>>>> invasion. That's one small part of a larger problem. Solutions?
>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Do the right thing. Lead by example. Support emerging
>>> countries by helping them grow straight. Build consensus
>>> among the community of nations rather than saying, "I am
>>> the decider" to the rest of the world. Live smaller so
>>> we do not need to give away out treasure and finest to
>>> reap resources from the rest of the world.
>>>
>>> You have heard this before. I am required to minimize
>>> my footprint. My contribution.
>>>
>>> And when dealing with vandals (AKA terrorists) shoot
>>> straight and fast. No religion or politic that advocates
>>> murder of innocents has any validity. This ain't PC, it's
>>> basic to our survival.
>>>
>>> /Robert
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Robert Skinner <
>>>>
>>> robert at squirrelhaven.com>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Brad,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also pleased and proud of what our forces have
>>>>> accomplished, and moreover, how they have done so.
>>>>> We have put our finest in harms way, and they have
>>>>> conducted themselves like ladies and gentlemen. The
>>>>> lapses from the highest standards of behavior that
>>>>> we could ask for are all the more noteable for their
>>>>> scarcity. Yon's work is promising.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had no argument with the boots on the ground,
>>>>> unless they have Blackwater insignia.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, I have had and continue to have
>>>>> reservations about the floating definitions of the
>>>>> mission(s) that our armed forces have been tasked
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>> I firmly believe that the form of democracy that
>>>>> grew in the United States requires a couple of
>>>>> centuries of substrate civilization and tolerance
>>>>> to grow and find its full expression.
>>>>>
>>>>> The way in which the free Iraqi codify their use of
>>>>> that freedom will inevitably be different than the US
>>>>> Constitution. For example, it is perfectly
>>>>> reasonable for them to decide to break up what was an
>>>>> artificial joining of disparate ethologies. In any
>>>>> case, it is their country, and they must be free to
>>>>> evolve or reshape it as necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> The following article, despite its origin on the left
>>>>> coast, has some meat, as it shows an evolving realism
>>>>> among the military leaders as they negotiate their
>>>>> way through the minefield of manifold mission
>>>>> statements from Bush 43.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is short, and not so much political as an
>>>>> interesting glimpse of the current military thinking
>>>>> about the situation in Iraq.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-petraeus13apr13,1,6444719.story
>>>
>>>>> /Robert
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Yon is at 17 on the list at Amazon today and rising fast
>>>>>>
>>> (up
>>> 250
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>> one week and it hasn't been released yet!). Trust me, this is not
>>>>>> propaganda. Whatever you think of 43 or the war in Iraq, you at
>>>>>>
>>> least
>>>
>>>>>> should read about the experience and professionalism of our troops
>>>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>>>> especially the Marines. The photo on the book cover still brings
>>>>>>
>>> tears
>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> my eyes every time I see it (the story behind the photo is sad).
>>>>>>
>>> Yon
>>> was
>>>
>>>>>> banned for awhile by the military for 'calling the shots as he saw
>>>>>>
>>> them'
>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> is as impartial a witness as one can find for this national
>>>>>>
>>> experience.
>>>
>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0980076323?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0980076323
>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Robert Skinner "Squirrel Haven"
>>>>> Gorham, Maine 04038-1331
>>>>> s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Skinner "Squirrel Haven"
>>> Gorham, Maine 04038-1331
>>> s/v "Little Dipper" & "Edith P."
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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