[Rhodes22-list] Is A Towing capacity of 4, 500 pounds enough for a R22 and trailer? (Northern Virginia-MD Area)
Mary Lou Troy
mtroy at atlanticbb.net
Mon Jul 14 21:49:16 EDT 2008
Dave,
We towed ours for a while with a Chevy Blazer 5000 lbs and then with
another Blazer 5500 lbs. It was much better with the second one. We
didn't tow much with either one but always felt that if we had a lot
of hills to contend with we might have wanted something with more
oomph. I'd guess your Pilot is really on the edge.
Mary Lou
1991 R22 Fretless
Rock Hall, MD
At 09:40 PM 7/14/2008, you wrote:
>Ed:
>
>Thanks - let me try this:
>
>Is A Towing capacity of 4,500 pounds (Honda Pilot) enough for a R22 and
>trailer? (Northern Virginia-MD Area)
>
>
>Dave
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
>rhodes22-list-request at rhodes22.org
>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:01 PM
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Subject: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1555, Issue 1
>
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1554, Issue 1 (Eugene D McGee)
> 2. Eugene D McGee and R22 Towing Around Virginia, Maryland and
> North Carolina (Tootle)
> 3. Re: The Silence is Deafening... reply to Bob Keller ...
> Political? (Brad Haslett)
> 4. What Gives? (Steven Alm)
> 5. Re: Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister
> (Melvyn Rothbard)
> 6. Welcome Melvyn Rothbard (Tootle)
> 7. progress (Tom Hogarty)
> 8. Re: Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister (jsail)
> 9. Re: political : marines in iraq...big al delete political
> (Herb Parsons)
> 10. Re: progress (Arthur H. Czerwonky)
> 11. Re: Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister (jimjim02)
> 12. Re: What Gives? (John Lock)
> 13. Re: What Gives? (R22RumRunner at aol.com)
> 14. Re: 1986 R22 Zephyrus is for Sale (Lowe, Rob)
> 15. Re: What Gives? (Steven Alm)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:28:38 -0400
>From: "Eugene D McGee" <edavemcgee at cox.net>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1554, Issue 1
>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>, <ekroposki at charter.net>
>Message-ID: <001c01c8e505$81b948e0$6901a8c0 at D4GNX321>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Ed K:
>
>I would be towing around in Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina.
>
>Dave
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 04:45:21 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Eugene D McGee and R22 Towing Weights
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18428540.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>Eugene D McGee you posted a question, but never told us where you are towing
>to...
>
>Ed K
>Greenville, SC, USA
>attachment:
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18428540/Do%2BWords%2Bhave%2BMeaning.gif
>Do+Words+have+Meaning.gif
>
>
>Steven Alm wrote:
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > Mine is about 4300. Boat, motor, full water/gas tanks, provisions and
> > duel
> > axle trailer.
> >
> > Slim
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Eugene D McGee <edavemcgee at cox.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello:
> >>
> >> I was wondering what are the typical actual towing weights of the R22
> >> with
> >> trailer?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18428540/Do%2BWords%2Bhave%2BMeaning.gif
>Do+Words+have+Meaning.gif
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/R22-Towing-Weights-tp18415491p18428540.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:28:37 -0400
>From: Bob Keller <r22yankeeclipper at hotmail.com>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] The Silence is Deafening...
>To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID: <BAY127-W51598DF414A418260B4288D1920 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>Remember that wargoing on in Iraq? Can't remember the last time I heard
>anything about it. Here's why:
>
>http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=300324023809577
>_________________________________________________________________
>Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
>http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL
>_messenger_072008
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis
> Leister
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18430391.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
>Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister:
>
>I visited your Long Beach Island on July 2, 2008. I stayed overnight
>visiting at Beach Haven, 143 St. Way too much traffic! Water is way too
>cold. You need to try coming south to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. You
>can stay in water more than 30 seconds. Be the first to sail from Long
>Beach Island, New Jersey to Myrtle. Ask Captain Rummy why his wife makes
>him take her to Myrtle.
>
>BTW, I looked around and never saw any Rhodes 22?s. I did see some
>Precisions and other sailboats. Are there really any Rhodes 22's near Long
>Beach Island, New Jersey?
>
>Curtis, you need to put proper subject in subject line for people to read...
>
>Ed K
>Greenville, SC, USA
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430391/Obama%2Band%2Bchange.gif
>Obama+and+change.gif
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Jay-Friedland%2C-Robert-Baldi%2C-and-Curtis-Leister-tp
>18430391p18430391.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] The Silence is Deafening... reply to Bob
> Keller ... Political?
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18430486.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>Bob:
>
>Brad thought that nobody read his posts. He has apparently sailed off on
>us. You now have to be the one who keeps us informed henceforth. Can you
>take the flack from David Bradley, Bill Effros, and all the other flaming
>liberals on this forum? So you noticed their silence?
>
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430486/This%2Bone%2Bis%2Bfor%2BBrad.bmp
>This+one+is+for+Brad.bmp
>
>Ed K
>Greenville, SC, USA
>Words are power, words are to persuade, convert, compel. (paraphrase of
>Ralph Waldo Emerson)
>
>
>Bob Keller wrote:
> >
> >
> > Remember that wargoing on in Iraq? Can't remember the last time I heard
> > anything about it. Here's why:
> >
> > http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=300324023809577
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
> >
>http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL
>_messenger_072008
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430486/This%2Bone%2Bis%2Bfor%2BBrad.bmp
>This+one+is+for+Brad.bmp
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/The-Silence-is-Deafening...-tp18429913p18430486.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rhodes22-list mailing list
>Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>
>End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1554, Issue 1
>**********************************************
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Eugene D McGee and R22 Towing Around
> Virginia, Maryland and North Carolina
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18431147.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>Dave:
>
>Did you notice how I changed the subject line? Many people read only posts
>to this forum that interest them and use the subject line to weed out
>anything that might not interest them. By stating clearly in the subject
>line what the post is about, you get readers, replies and comments by those
>interested in your post.
>
>For example, there are many Rhodies in the area you discribe. In fact there
>may even be a Rhodes 22 owner within a couple of miles. Most Rhodies are
>quite friendly and helpful to each other. Sometimes they even sail
>together. Imagine that? Two sail boats means a race?
>
>Have a beverage and loosen up and tell us more...
>
>Attachment:
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18431147/Toast%2Bto%2BAl%2BGore.gif
>Toast+to+Al+Gore.gif
>
>Ed K
>Greenville, SC, USA
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Eugene-D-McGee-and-R22-Towing-Around-Virginia%2C-Maryl
>and-and-North-Carolina-tp18431147p18431147.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:11:35 -0500
>From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] The Silence is Deafening... reply to Bob
> Keller ... Political?
>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID:
> <400985d70807131011v6bf806b0t23dc854cc31c7ef2 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>Ed,
>
>Just got back from a quick trip to the MS Gulf Coast to handle some
>'bidness' issues. Thanks for the cartoon - pretty much the way I see the
>election coming down. McCain isn't going to win over conservatives and the
>far left is starting to figure out that "The Chosen One" isn't so special
>after-all. Not only is he a "garden variety" politician, but a typical
>Chicago one with a really arrogant streak. This is fun to watch!
>
>Attached is another update on Iraq. The progress made there in the last
>year has been amazing but it's not over yet. The Maliki government is doing
>some of their own political posturing (they do sincerely want us out and
>he's making statements to that effect publicly, but doesn't want us to leave
>prematurely). Obambi's painted himself in a corner - if he sticks to his
>campaign pledge after re-visiting Iraq he'll look like a fool, and if he
>doesn't he'll piss the far left off even more.
>
>What was it B. Shakespeare had to say about deception?
>
>Brad
>
>-----------------------
>
>July 13, 2008 An Army That Learns *By* *David
>Ignatius*<http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/author/david_ignatius/>
>
>WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Army has done something remarkable in its new history
>of the disastrous first 18 months of the American occupation of Iraq: It has
>conducted a rigorous self-critique of how bad decisions were made, so that
>the Army won't make them again.
>
>Civilian leaders are still mostly engaged in a blame game about Iraq,
>pointing fingers to explain what went wrong and to justify their own
>actions. That's certainly the tone of recent memoirs by Douglas Feith, the
>former undersecretary of defense, and L. Paul Bremer, the one-time head of
>the Coalition Provisional Authority. These were the people making policy,
>yet they treat the key mistakes as other people's fault. Feith criticizes
>Bremer and the CIA, while Bremer chides former Defense Secretary Donald
>Rumsfeld and the military for ignoring his advice that the U.S. didn't have
>enough troops.
>
>The Army can't afford this sort of retroactive self-justification. Its
>commanders and soldiers are the ones who got stuck with the situation in
>Iraq and had to make it work as best they could. And this internal history,
>published last month under the title "On Point II," testifies to the Army's
>strength as a learning organization. (This study covers May 2003 to January
>2005. An earlier volume, "On Point," chronicled the initial assault on
>Baghdad.)
>
>The study is blunt about how unprepared the Army was for the postwar
>challenges: "The DOD and the Army lacked a coherent plan to translate the
>rapid, narrow-front attack (on Baghdad) ... into strategic success. Soldiers
>and commanders at nearly every level did not know what was expected of them
>once Saddam Hussein was deposed and his military forces destroyed." The
>situation in spring 2003 "evoked the aphorism, 'if you don't know where you
>are going, any road will get you there.'"
>
>Why was the Army so unready for the insurgency and chaos that followed the
>toppling of Saddam? The study rejects the easy (if largely correct) answer
>that it was the fault of poor civilian leadership, and focuses instead on
>the Army's own shortcomings. The overall commander, Gen. Tommy Franks, "did
>not see postwar Iraq as his long-term responsibility," the study says.
>"Franks' message to the DOD and the Joint Chiefs was, 'You pay attention to
>the day after, and I'll pay attention to the day of.'"
>
>But it turned out that nobody was preparing for the day after. The Army's
>chief of staff, Gen. Eric Shinseki, argued that more troops would be needed,
>but the Joint Chiefs supported Franks' under-resourced war plan. The chiefs
>assumed that a reconstituted Iraqi army would help secure the country after
>the war, little realizing that Bremer would disband it in May 2003. At that
>time, the military still was assuming that most American troops would be
>gone by September
>
>The U.S. had a force for "regime removal" but not "regime change," write the
>authors, Donald P. Wright and Col. Timothy R. Reese. When the Army began to
>understand that it faced a well-organized insurgency, "the transition to a
>new campaign was not well thought out." The Army wasn't ready to train Iraqi
>security forces, or to handle the thousands of Iraqi prisoners detained in
>places such as Abu Ghraib.
>
>But the Army learned from its mistakes. Rather than sulking about the Iraq
>mess, commanders made necessary changes. The Army developed a new doctrine
>for fighting a counterinsurgency; it learned how to work with Iraqi tribal
>leaders; it pursued al-Qaeda into every village of Iraq; it experimented
>with soft power, by working closely with Provincial Reconstruction Teams.
>"One could easily state that the U.S. Army essentially reinvented itself
>during this 18-month period," the historians write.
>
>This study illustrates what's most admirable about the Army. It has
>maintained a tradition of intellectual rigor and self-criticism. That's
>nurtured in the Army's unique program of midcareer education. It's not an
>accident, but part of the Army tradition, that the current commander in
>Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, took a doctorate in international relations at
>Princeton, or that the former Centcom commander, Gen. John Abizaid, had a
>stint as commandant of West Point. This tradition is exemplified, too, in
>the decision of Gen. George Casey, the current chief of staff, to publish
>this sometimes searing critique of his own service.
>
>Politicians repeat, ad nauseum, philosopher George Santayana's maxim that
>"those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." The U.S. Army
>is that rare institution in American life that is actually putting this
>precept into practice.
> davidignatius at washpost.com <%20davidignatius at washpost.com>
>
>
>On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Bob:
> >
> > Brad thought that nobody read his posts. He has apparently sailed off on
> > us. You now have to be the one who keeps us informed henceforth. Can you
> > take the flack from David Bradley, Bill Effros, and all the other flaming
> > liberals on this forum? So you noticed their silence?
> >
> > http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430486/This%2Bone%2Bis%2Bfor%2BBrad.bmp
> > This+one+is+for+Brad.bmp
> >
> > Ed K
> > Greenville, SC, USA
> > Words are power, words are to persuade, convert, compel. (paraphrase of
> > Ralph Waldo Emerson)
> >
> >
> > Bob Keller wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Remember that wargoing on in Iraq? Can't remember the last time I heard
> > > anything about it. Here's why:
> > >
> > > http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=300324023809577
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
> > >
> >
>http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL
>_messenger_072008
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > __________________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430486/This%2Bone%2Bis%2Bfor%2BBrad.bmp
> > This+one+is+for+Brad.bmp
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/The-Silence-is-Deafening...-tp18429913p18430486.html
> > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:59:48 -0500
>From: "Steven Alm" <stevenalm at gmail.com>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] What Gives?
>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID:
> <7ff0cdf80807131759j84ca77ajd06768bce3a2d9f2 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>testing 1, 2, 3... is this thing on?
>
>I've only gotten 6 posts in 3 days. I posted two messages two days ago that
>never showed up.
>
>Slim
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Melvyn Rothbard <melrothbard at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis
> Leister
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID: <858905.30638.qm at web44816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>Dear Ed:
>There are at least 3 R22's on the north end of the Island and probably at
>leat a half dozen on the south and that is only the ones that I have seen
>sailing my Boat, The Paper Clipper( 1996 & just refurb at Edenton this
>winter). The water is great, the bay is wide and the two inlets at either
>end are navigable. You should try sailing north again. I was sailing with
>Jay & Rob earlier this spring on Jays Boat and as usual we had a great time.
>
>Mel Rothbard
>
>Melvyn H. Rothbard
>Attorney at Law
>Suite 3C
>23 South 23rd Street
>Philadelphia, PA 19103
>215 901 2258
>Fax: 215 656 0993
>melrothbard at yahoo.com
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
>
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>in error, please delete this message and immediately notify us by replying
>to this e mail or telephoning us at 215 901 2258.
>
>
>--- On Sun, 7/13/08, Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister
> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 11:23 AM
> > Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister:
> >
> > I visited your Long Beach Island on July 2, 2008. I stayed
> > overnight
> > visiting at Beach Haven, 143 St. Way too much traffic!
> > Water is way too
> > cold. You need to try coming south to Myrtle Beach, South
> > Carolina. You
> > can stay in water more than 30 seconds. Be the first to
> > sail from Long
> > Beach Island, New Jersey to Myrtle. Ask Captain Rummy why
> > his wife makes
> > him take her to Myrtle.
> >
> > BTW, I looked around and never saw any Rhodes 22?s. I
> > did see some
> > Precisions and other sailboats. Are there really any Rhodes
> > 22's near Long
> > Beach Island, New Jersey?
> >
> > Curtis, you need to put proper subject in subject line for
> > people to read...
> >
> > Ed K
> > Greenville, SC, USA
> > http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430391/Obama%2Band%2Bchange.gif
> > Obama+and+change.gif
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
>http://www.nabble.com/Jay-Friedland%2C-Robert-Baldi%2C-and-Curtis-Leister-tp
>18430391p18430391.html
> > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> > list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Welcome Melvyn Rothbard
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18436000.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
>Welcome Melvyn!
>
>When you go fishing, you never know what you will catch. I landed a newbie!
>
>Wow!
>
>So who are these other non participants of this forum on the south end? If
>you know that you are going sailing and might be interested in taking a
>guest [who has never sailed], let me know. I will see if I can get my host
>from my visit to go for a sail. He is recently retired and needs an outdoor
>hobby. He is a resident of Bucks county, Pa., and has a place on 143rd st.
>south. Like so many of you northerners, I cannot get him to visit the
>south, where the waters are warm, the zephers gentle and peaches in season.
>
>Ed K
>Greenville, SC, USA
>Attachment: http://www.nabble.com/file/p18436000/Tricksters.jpg
>Tricksters.jpg
>
>
>
>
>Melvyn Rothbard wrote:
> >
> > Dear Ed:
> > There are at least 3 R22's on the north end of the Island and probably at
> > leat a half dozen on the south and that is only the ones that I have seen
> > sailing my Boat, The Paper Clipper( 1996 & just refurb at Edenton this
> > winter). The water is great, the bay is wide and the two inlets at either
> > end are navigable. You should try sailing north again. I was sailing
> > with Jay & Rob earlier this spring on Jays Boat and as usual we had a
> > great time.
> >
> > Mel Rothbard
> >
> > Melvyn H. Rothbard
> > Attorney at Law
> > Suite 3C
> > 23 South 23rd Street
> > Philadelphia, PA 19103
> > 215 901 2258
> > Fax: 215 656 0993
> > melrothbard at yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> >
> > The information and/or documents included in or accompanying this
> > transmission contain(s) confidential information belonging to the sender
> > which is legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use
> > of the individual or entity to whom it was sent as indicated above. If
> > you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> > disclosure, copying, distribution or taking of any action in reliance on
> > the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have
> > received this e mail in error, please delete this message and immediately
> > notify us by replying to this e mail or telephoning us at 215 901 2258.
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
> >> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister
> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 11:23 AM
> >> Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister:
> >>
> >> I visited your Long Beach Island on July 2, 2008. I stayed
> >> overnight
> >> visiting at Beach Haven, 143 St. Way too much traffic!
> >> Water is way too
> >> cold. You need to try coming south to Myrtle Beach, South
> >> Carolina. You
> >> can stay in water more than 30 seconds. Be the first to
> >> sail from Long
> >> Beach Island, New Jersey to Myrtle. Ask Captain Rummy why
> >> his wife makes
> >> him take her to Myrtle.
> >>
> >> BTW, I looked around and never saw any Rhodes 22?s. I
> >> did see some
> >> Precisions and other sailboats. Are there really any Rhodes
> >> 22's near Long
> >> Beach Island, New Jersey?
> >>
> >> Curtis, you need to put proper subject in subject line for
> >> people to read...
> >>
> >> Ed K
> >> Greenville, SC, USA
> >> http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430391/Obama%2Band%2Bchange.gif
> >> Obama+and+change.gif
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >>
>http://www.nabble.com/Jay-Friedland%2C-Robert-Baldi%2C-and-Curtis-Leister-tp
>18430391p18430391.html
> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >> list go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p18436000/Tricksters.jpg Tricksters.jpg
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Jay-Friedland%2C-Robert-Baldi%2C-and-Curtis-Leister-tp
>18430391p18436000.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:33:42 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Tom Hogarty <tjhogarty at gmail.com>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] progress
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18436119.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>Mast went up on our newly named "acorn" this afternoon. Yoke and mast winch
>worked great as did the help from the documentation by former owner, Bob
>Dobson, this wonderful forum, and Stan's great engineering. Easy as pie!
>Skiptress Alice cranked it all by herself. I had thought we would need to
>host a barn raising party, but we did it all by ourselfs. It did take much,
>much longer than 20 minutes, but we learned so much about our boat in the
>process. Acorn is still trailered at Holiday Hill on the Rhodes River south
>of Annapolis and has a mess of details to go before launch. I pulled the
>pin to lower the pop top mast attachment and the boom came down as well. Is
>there a separate control pin for the boom? The pin for the pop top
>attachment is on the starboard side of the mast. None on the port side
>where I might expect on for the boom. My archive search was not as yet
>helpful.
>Thanks,
>Tom Hogarty
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/progress-tp18436119p18436119.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
>From: jsail <jsail1 at verizon.net>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis
> Leister
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18436780.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
>Ed-
>Why not pick the busiest weekend possible to judge traffic? This week the
>ocean temp is high 60's-low 70's, but no jellyfish or sea nettles around
>ocean or bay. Some of us now work during the week, and sail late afternoon
>to evening. I sail from Sportman's Marina, 20th St., N. Beach Haven, right
>near where 143rd could be (numbers stop at 133rd, restart at 34th St.). Rob
>is at Brant Beach Yacht Club, 59th St. Would have gladly invited you if I
>knew you were around-still having trouble getting most list e-mails with
>Verizon DSL, not sure why. Next time try September-November to have the
>island to yourself.
>
>Curtis, Donna, & I are tentatively scheduled for Thursday PM, so we'll see
>how we transition from powerboating.
>
>Jay
>
>
>Tootle wrote:
> >
> > Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister:
> >
> > I visited your Long Beach Island on July 2, 2008. I stayed overnight
> > visiting at Beach Haven, 143 St. Way too much traffic! Water is way too
> > cold. You need to try coming south to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. You
> > can stay in water more than 30 seconds. Be the first to sail from Long
> > Beach Island, New Jersey to Myrtle. Ask Captain Rummy why his wife makes
> > him take her to Myrtle.
> >
> > BTW, I looked around and never saw any Rhodes 22?s. I did see some
> > Precisions and other sailboats. Are there really any Rhodes 22's near Long
> > Beach Island, New Jersey?
> >
> > Curtis, you need to put proper subject in subject line for people to
> > read...
> >
> > Ed K
> > Greenville, SC, USA
> > http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430391/Obama%2Band%2Bchange.gif
> > Obama+and+change.gif
> >
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Jay-Friedland%2C-Robert-Baldi%2C-and-Curtis-Leister-tp
>18430391p18436780.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:58:08 -0500
>From: Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] political : marines in iraq...big al
> delete political
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID: <487ACED0.1050300 at parsonsys.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Um Steven,
>
>Pay attention. We were debating that very issue. You can't use their
>decision as justification for their decision. Didn't you pay attention
>in debate class?
>
>Steven Alm wrote:
> > Herb,
> >
> > You said: "Find the me the document that says we CAN'T arrest, hold
>without
> > trial, for as long as we want, etc etc."
> >
> > Hello? That's the very ruling that the Supreme Court just handed down.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Steve,
> >>
> >> You won't find that language, because it's the language you're
> >> dictating. Much like the constitution, the GC's list the RESTRICTIONS on
> >> the government. It doesn't say what we can do, it says what we agree NOT
> >> to do (and in all reality, it only affects those that have agreed),
> >>
> >> You've throw in the crap about "anyone body we want" for "as long as we
> >> want", and that's what it is, crap. No one has proposed that. You throw
> >> it in to obfuscate the issue, and it makes further discussion pointless.
> >>
> >> However, I'll play along.
> >>
> >> Let's go another route.
> >>
> >> Find the me the document that says we CAN'T arrest, hold without trial,
> >> for as long as we want, etc etc.
> >>
> >> The US Constitution specifically says:
> >>
> >> We the People of the United States ... provide for the common defense
> >> ... promote the general Welfare ... the Blessings of Liberty to
> >> OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY
> >>
> >> (my emphasis)
> >>
> >> And then goes on to tell how the federal government is restricted.
> >>
> >> Those restrictions on against our government, on our soil.
> >>
> >> FWIW, you are the one that stated or implied that the actions you
> >> mentioned were in violation of the GC's. They aren't.
> >>
> >>
> >> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>
> >>> First, sorry, I didn''t mean to duck out of this conversation "But I
>just
> >>> had to go sailing" for a couple days. Felt great! Still sizing up a
> >>> Mississippi trip maybe next month.
> >>>
> >>> Herb, I looked at your link and I scanned the section on POW's and
>you're
> >>> right--it's very lengthy. I didn't find what I was looking for. Please
> >>> point me to the place where it says we have the right and reason to
> >>>
> >> arrest
> >>
> >>> and hold anybody we want, for as long as we want, without proof or
> >>>
> >> evidence,
> >>
> >>> denying them counsel, denying a trial or even a hearing, allowed to
> >>>
> >> suppress
> >>
> >>> evidence...
> >>>
> >>> In other words, point me to place in the GV or anything else for that
> >>>
> >> matter
> >>
> >>> that the Supreme Court ruled was unconstitutional--that you disagree
> >>>
> >> with.
> >>
> >>> I doubt there's any language written into law that settles this matter.
> >>> Like always, it's open for interpretation. This time, I think I'm in
> >>>
> >> good
> >>
> >>> company. You, Scalia, Roberts, Thomas and Alito have lost this one.
> >>>
> >>> Slim
> >>>
> >>> Slim
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I know you're going to think this is nuts, but it's just the way my
> >>>> brain runs sometimes (and please, feel free to take that as a clear
> >>>> indication that I AM indeed, nuts.)
> >>>>
> >>>> Travel back with me, if you will, to 1978. Harrison Ford is just
> >>>> beginning to ride the wave of success from Star Wars, and plays one of
> >>>> the heroes in this sequel (17 years coming) to The Guns of Navarone -
> >>>> Force 10 From Navarone.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry to spoil it for those of you that haven't seen it, but it HAS
>been
> >>>> 30 years....
> >>>>
> >>>> Our heroes have to destroy a bridge. Unfortunately, their munitions
> >>>> expert tells them it can't be done. Not with the explosives they have.
> >>>> So, they come up with a new idea, blow the dam upriver from the bridge,
> >>>> and let the water take it out. And it works. In a fun, and amazing, and
> >>>> spectacular fashion, it works!
> >>>>
> >>>> One problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's clearly a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
> >>>>
> >>>> No Supreme Court intervention needed, it's just a flagrant violation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now, I know it didn't really happen, but this is Hollywood making
>Heroes
> >>>> out of people that flaunt the Geneva Conventions!!! Wow, who'dathunkit?
> >>>>
> >>>> Seriously though, the treaties have a lot less to do with how we treat
> >>>> POW's or enemy combatants, and are much more concerned with other
> >>>> matters, but you'd never know that, because most people's "knowledge"
>of
> >>>> it is what they heard on MSNBC or read in Newsweek..
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Herb,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No reason to read it! I'm taking the opposition position, "if yer fer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> it,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm agin it"! The Obambi child will see the reality on day one after
> >>>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>>> parades and the parties are over. He really pisses me off for playing
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> race card and sane and rational people like Ron Lipton really, really,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> piss
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> me off for playing the same card in a back-handed way that even they
>as
> >>>>> "sane and rational people" don't recognize.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm joking about not reading the material -I read everything. Gawd
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> forbid I
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> kick anyone "in the stomach" and they can't kick back.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I try to keep my comments above the line but that last response and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> comment
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> by Lipton was about as chickenshit as they come. CHICKENSHIT! I know
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> deep down my vocabulary will find a more descriptive term but that
>term
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> will
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> do for now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> CHICKENSHIT!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brad
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:02 AM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Prepare for a long night of reading. I'd read it before (kind of
>silly
> >>>>>> to argue that something is or isn't "against the Geneva Convention"
>if
> >>>>>> you haven't read it, wouldn't you agree), so I had a rough idea where
> >>>>>>
> >> it
> >>
> >>>>>> was. It's harder to understand than the constitution.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/CONVPRES?OpenView
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> gotta link?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 3:19 AM, Herb Parsons <
> >>>>>>>
> >> hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> >>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Slim, of course it's our right. We're at war. The Geneva convention
> >>>>>>>> doesn't apply here. You do understand that the GC is a treaty
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> (actually,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> several treaties), and only applies to those that signed it? What's
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> point of signing a treaty if the "other side" is going to give the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> same
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> "benefits" to those that DON'T sign it?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Even though in this case the "other side" hasn't signed on to the
> >>>>>>>> treaties, I'll address your question about the GC.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are four treaties. The third and fourth are applicable to
>your
> >>>>>>>> question. There is debate about whether or not those in Gitmo are
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> POW's,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> so I'll include both, but that's easy, because this requirement is
> >>>>>>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>>>>>> same for both POW's and civilians. They are to be released at the
> >>>>>>>>
> >> end
> >>
> >>>> of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> the conflict.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "We hold them until the war is over."
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Is that our right? Do we have license to hold people without
> >>>>>>>>>
> >> Habeus
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Corpus
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> indefinitely? I'm no military expert and you seem to be so clue
>me
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> here--does the Geneva Convention allow for this? Or are all bets
> >>>>>>>>>
> >> off
> >>
> >>>>>>>>> because they're not in uniform and not necessarily nationals?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 2:33 AM, Herb Parsons <
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> hparsons at parsonsys.com>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry Slim, it's not. It's treating them as prisoners of war. In
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> which
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> war have we tried POWs during the war? We don't. We hold them
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> until
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> war is over.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> We don't put them to work. We don't sell them. We don't trade
>them
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> other property. We hold them. Thats the nature of war. While your
> >>>>>>>>>> description might be accurate, your conclusion is totally off
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> base.
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> way we treat them is far form that of what people would do to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "property".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Herb,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It was these two statements that jumped out at me:
> >>>>>>>>>>> "We don't try enemy combatants in time of war." and
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Actually, I don't even care about a
> >>>>>>>>>>> trial. When the fighting's over, send 'em back home."
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's treating them as if we own them.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Slim
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Steven Alm <stevenalm at gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey, it's only a quarter to two. Bet I can stay up later than
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> you
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> argue this all night. 8-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Herb Parsons <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> hparsons at parsonsys.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It wasn't the use of the word, per se. It was you claim that I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> think
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have no more obligation that to treat them as such.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. I don't even know which form you mean the word,
>but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> none
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> apply. I definitely don't think our obligation is limited to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> treating
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> them as property or slaves. Most of the other definitions are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> pretty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> obscure, but none of them fit what I think our obligations
>are.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe a better approach would be for you to point out in my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> comments
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what lead you to believe that of me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Or, would asking you to back up your comments be too
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> "argumentative"?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gosh, Herb, I know few people as argumentative as you. No, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything and your assessment of me is wrong. If you think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "chattel"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the wrong word, then what? Speak up. I know you will.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slim
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Herb Parsons <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> hparsons at parsonsys.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Slim, you may think you know everything, but if you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> really
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, you're fooling yourself. You either don't know the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> meaning
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "chattel", don't know what I think, or are simply lying. You
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> choose
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself, I don't know your mind.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad and Herb,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You two are clearly on the same page that because this is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> war
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these guys are idealists rather than nationalists, we have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> no
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> obligation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treat them any better than chattel. No sirs, I haven't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> missed
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the article, I just don't like it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad, because they treat our boys badly is no reason to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> same.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember, the world is watching. Odds are that some of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> detainees
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> innocent. Herb seems to think that's a small price to pay
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> we'll
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let 'em go when the war is over. Maybe that's right if the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> war
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> over
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like yesterday but It's going to drag on and on--you know
>it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> will.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And c'mon, Brad--let God sort it out? That's not the Brad
>I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> know.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> LOL
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slim, your friendly neighborhood communist
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Herb Parsons <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> hparsons at parsonsys.com
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steven Alm wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are so many things wrong with that WSJ article, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> hardly
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start. Let's see:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The writ of habeas corpus, a bulwark of domestic
>liberty,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> has
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extended
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to foreign nationals whose only connection to the U.S. is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capture
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our military."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Their only connection is that they're in our custody.
>How
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> are
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> going
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treat them? In accordance with our values or not? Any
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> person,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> citizen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not, on US soil is afforded ALL the rights of any other
>US
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> citizen.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact that the detainees are not on US soil is too
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> subversive
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> me
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smell a rat. The military is trying to find a loophole
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> circumvent
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> American-style justice. The Supremes are saying "No."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are POW's in "our custody"? Is it your assertion that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> writ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> habeas
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corpus be extended to POWs? BTW, this isn't a case of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> military
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to "find a loophole", this loophole was "found",
>and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> USED,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the SC's blessing, years ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> places
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roadblocks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the path of a conviction for a crime, and for the loss
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> liberty,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even life, that may follow."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roadblocks? Since when is getting a fair trial a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> roadblock?
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We don't try enemy combatants during time of war.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Our motto remains: Let 100 guilty men go free before one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> innocent
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> man
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convicted."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. Our motto is "innocent until proven guilty."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Umm.... we have LOTS of motto's. Do a little research,
>that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> one
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around a long time, and it's NEVER applied in times of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> side". Some times, as in the case of FDR and the Japanese
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Americans,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't even apply to THIS side.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In fighting an enemy, there is no reason for the
>judicial
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> branch
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "check"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the political branches."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So is it better to let the military/admin go unchecked?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> What
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's where "your side" just doesn't get it. The military
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> has
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> NEVER
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gone "unchecked". You folks just don't happen to like
>their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> checks
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balances. And no, they're not perfect, but then, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> civilian
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> checks
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balances aren't either.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The judiciary is not competent to make judgments about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> who
> >>
> >>>> is
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enemy combatant or, more generally, a threat to the U.S."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The court is not making that judgement. They're just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> saying
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adhere to reasonable standards when/if the prisoners are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> tried.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guess we all have different definitions of "reasonable".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> "Your
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> side"
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about to get a reality lesson on "reasonable".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The imposition of the civilian criminal justice model on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> decisions
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding potentially hostile aliens raises a host of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> questions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Court does not even attempt to answer in Boumediene."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such as--what? Don't detainees have a right to a fair
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> trial?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Uh, Steve, he listed a lot of them. But yeah, the
>detainees
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right to a fair trial, while the war is still going on. Do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> you
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> precedent where we try the enemy during war time?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Must military personnel take notes in the field
>regarding
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> location,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dress, and comportment of captives for later use in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> "trials"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mandated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Supreme Court?"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course. Evidence is evidence. Or should the
>detainees
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> be
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> subjected
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mere hearsay? "Um...I think he's an enemy so don't ask
>me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> for
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> any
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> details."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the silliness that this is going to bring. I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> want
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soldiers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to take notes on evidence. Actually, I don't even
>care
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trial. When the fighting's over, send 'em back home.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Can a detainee file a writ for habeas corpus immediately
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> upon
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> arriving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. military base like Guantanamo Bay?"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? Any other low-life crack dealer in the US is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> afforded
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He's said "why not". You've just decided it's all bunk
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> before
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> began
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In fact, judgments regarding the detention or trial of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> enemies
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> require
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training, experience, access to and understanding of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> intelligence."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Who has this training, experience and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> understanding?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught him and just thinks he's an enemy? Doesn't he
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> deserve
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> council?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is America! Try the sons of bitches and let's see! The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> military's
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closed-door approach stinks. It's fascist. It's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> secretive
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazi.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are we afraid of? The truth?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, THIS is America, that ISN'T. Why the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> name-calling
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though? NOT trying combatants has nothing more to do with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Facism
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naziism than your tripe has to do with communism. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "They cannot be reduced to a particular standard of proof
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> in
> >>
> >>>> a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> courtroom
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> setting. "
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh my god. Did he really say that? Do we need no proof?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Particular standard, hard to read the details when you're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> foaming
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouth though, huh?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "God help us if the judiciary makes such a mistake and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> releases
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mohammad Atta into our midst."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the whole point of a fair trial. To prove it one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> way
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this guy's a criminal. Sure, mistakes are sometimes made
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> trials
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes tainted. Criminals sometimes get released on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technicalities.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is no reason to throw out our judicial system and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> lock
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> guys
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> up
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throw away the key unless they're found to be enemies in
>a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> legitimate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> court
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trial.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No Slim, that is NOT the purpose of a trial, at least not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> in
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> our
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> country, and that's the whole issue here, and you miss the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> point.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> our
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilian system, a trial absolutely does NOT "prove it one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> way
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another". There is no burden on the accused to prove
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> anything.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> Many
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criminals are set free because the system could not prove
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> they
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> were
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guilty, within the scope of "the rules" (keep in mind,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> those
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> include things like mirandizing them, having a search
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> warrant,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> etc).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are designed to err on the side of the accused. War
>is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> not
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same. That's the whole point of this article, and you, not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> surprisingly,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have we learned nothing from the past? Did we really
>need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> detain
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single Japanese-American in the camps during WWII? What
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> nonsense.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no comparison to this and the rounding up of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japanese-Americans. We didn't round these people up on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> American
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> soil.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or others) captured them up in the theater of war.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> They're
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xxxxx-Americans. BTW, you need to check your history
>books,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> we
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> didn't
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detain "every single Japanese-American in the camps during
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> WWII";
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then, I suspect a little hyperbole is necessary to support
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> arguments
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This whole Gitmo thing is completely unamerican. I'd bet
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detainees are in fact guilty of being enemies but we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> can't,
> >>
> >>>> in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> good
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conscience cattle-call them all to their graves without a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> shred
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proof
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trial. The Supremes got it right.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, more hyperbole. None of these folks are being
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> executed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> None
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WERE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be executed without a trail. Of course, why bother
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> introducing
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> facts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the equation? You're on a rant, and that's what this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> decision
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
>mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> go
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> go
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> list
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> list
> >>
> >>>> go
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> go
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> go
> >>
> >>>> to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list
>go
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> to
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>>>>>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
> >>>>>>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>to
> >>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>>> __________________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >>>
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >>
> >>> __________________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:19:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] progress
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID:
>
><17039993.1216034356707.JavaMail.root at elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>Tom,
>Re. the boom dropping - yes, there is a separate pin latch for each of the
>two 'cars' that travel up and down the mast. Be aware that on the IMF mast,
>when you adjust the upper car, the IMF sail and its furling tube ride up or
>down the mast also, so additional weight is involved. I believe the pin for
>the upper car will be 28 1/2 " above the base of the mast.
>Happy sailing on a spectacular boat!
>Art
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Hogarty <tjhogarty at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 9:33 PM
> >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >Subject: [Rhodes22-list] progress
> >
> >
> >Mast went up on our newly named "acorn" this afternoon. Yoke and mast
>winch
> >worked great as did the help from the documentation by former owner, Bob
> >Dobson, this wonderful forum, and Stan's great engineering. Easy as pie!
> >Skiptress Alice cranked it all by herself. I had thought we would need to
> >host a barn raising party, but we did it all by ourselfs. It did take
>much,
> >much longer than 20 minutes, but we learned so much about our boat in the
> >process. Acorn is still trailered at Holiday Hill on the Rhodes River
>south
> >of Annapolis and has a mess of details to go before launch. I pulled the
> >pin to lower the pop top mast attachment and the boom came down as well.
>Is
> >there a separate control pin for the boom? The pin for the pop top
> >attachment is on the starboard side of the mast. None on the port side
> >where I might expect on for the boom. My archive search was not as yet
> >helpful.
> >Thanks,
> >Tom Hogarty
> >--
> >View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/progress-tp18436119p18436119.html
> >Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 05:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
>From: jimjim02 <jamesldickson at aol.com>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis
> Leister
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <18442775.post at talk.nabble.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
>Hi Jay,
>I'm a new Rhodes Owner out of Quakertown PA - boat moored in Nockamixon Lake
>near by. Our family rents a house every summer the last week in July down on
>LBI - 35th Street - Brant Beach.
>
>I've been thinking about taking the boat down next year while we are at the
>shore. Can you suggest a marina near 35th Street Brant Beach that will rent
>out for the week and also allow you to keep your trailer there as well?
>
>
>Thanks Jim
>2008 - recycled '91 Rhodes
>Quakertown PA
>
>
>
>
>jsail wrote:
> >
> > Ed-
> > Why not pick the busiest weekend possible to judge traffic? This week the
> > ocean temp is high 60's-low 70's, but no jellyfish or sea nettles around
> > ocean or bay. Some of us now work during the week, and sail late afternoon
> > to evening. I sail from Sportman's Marina, 20th St., N. Beach Haven, right
> > near where 143rd could be (numbers stop at 133rd, restart at 34th St.).
> > Rob is at Brant Beach Yacht Club, 59th St. Would have gladly invited you
> > if I knew you were around-still having trouble getting most list e-mails
> > with Verizon DSL, not sure why. Next time try September-November to have
> > the island to yourself.
> >
> > Curtis, Donna, & I are tentatively scheduled for Thursday PM, so we'll see
> > how we transition from powerboating.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >
> > Tootle wrote:
> >>
> >> Jay Friedland, Robert Baldi, and Curtis Leister:
> >>
> >> I visited your Long Beach Island on July 2, 2008. I stayed overnight
> >> visiting at Beach Haven, 143 St. Way too much traffic! Water is way too
> >> cold. You need to try coming south to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. You
> >> can stay in water more than 30 seconds. Be the first to sail from Long
> >> Beach Island, New Jersey to Myrtle. Ask Captain Rummy why his wife makes
> >> him take her to Myrtle.
> >>
> >> BTW, I looked around and never saw any Rhodes 22?s. I did see some
> >> Precisions and other sailboats. Are there really any Rhodes 22's near
> >> Long Beach Island, New Jersey?
> >>
> >> Curtis, you need to put proper subject in subject line for people to
> >> read...
> >>
> >> Ed K
> >> Greenville, SC, USA
> >> http://www.nabble.com/file/p18430391/Obama%2Band%2Bchange.gif
> >> Obama+and+change.gif
> >>
> >
> >
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Jay-Friedland%2C-Robert-Baldi%2C-and-Curtis-Leister-tp
>18430391p18442775.html
>Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:45:26 -0400
>From: John Lock <jlock at relevantarts.com>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What Gives?
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID: <200807141245.m6ECje8r068927 at raeid23.raenet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
> x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7943335B
>
>At 07:59 PM 7/13/2008 -0500, Steven Alm wrote:
>
> >testing 1, 2, 3... is this thing on?
> >
> >I've only gotten 6 posts in 3 days. I posted two messages two days ago
>that
> >never showed up.
>
>The list appears to be working OK. If you only seem to get
>intermittent e-mails, the first thing to check is any spam filters
>that may be in place on your computer or your ISP or e-mail
>service. Check the junk boxes. If you have your filters set to
>delete caught spam, you'll never know what you're missing.
>
>If you are still missing e-mails, contact me directly and give me
>some details like approx. date and time of messages you sent and how
>you sent them. There is always the possibility that some IP blocks
>are in place somewhere and I'll need the technical details to track that
>down.
>
>Cheers!
>
>John Lock
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>Lake Sinclair, GA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:46:12 EDT
>From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What Gives?
>To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>Message-ID: <bb8.3151673a.35acb2a4 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>John,
>Slims problem is that he's using one of those Apple computers.
>
>Rummy
>
>
>In a message dated 7/14/2008 8:46:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>jlock at relevantarts.com writes:
>
>At 07:59 PM 7/13/2008 -0500, Steven Alm wrote:
>
> >testing 1, 2, 3... is this thing on?
> >
> >I've only gotten 6 posts in 3 days. I posted two messages two days ago
>that
> >never showed up.
>
>The list appears to be working OK. If you only seem to get
>intermittent e-mails, the first thing to check is any spam filters
>that may be in place on your computer or your ISP or e-mail
>service. Check the junk boxes. If you have your filters set to
>delete caught spam, you'll never know what you're missing.
>
>If you are still missing e-mails, contact me directly and give me
>some details like approx. date and time of messages you sent and how
>you sent them. There is always the possibility that some IP blocks
>are in place somewhere and I'll need the technical details to track that
>down.
>
>Cheers!
>
>John Lock
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>Lake Sinclair, GA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
>
>scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
>(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 14
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:59:27 -0400
>From: "Lowe, Rob" <rlowe at vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] 1986 R22 Zephyrus is for Sale
>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID:
> <F6526E681958C24EBBEDCDCBF367FE59010A5FA9 at elessar.cc.w2k.vt.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Todd,
>Just curious, why the new sails and why Mack sails? Also, I don't see a
>bimini on Zephyrus, I'm assuming there is not one? - rob
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Todd Zumach
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:56 PM
>To: Rhodes List
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] 1986 R22 Zephyrus is for Sale
>
>With great regret I have decided to sell my 1986 R22. I love the boat,
>but
>we don't use it enough to justify keeping it. The dream of a trailer
>sailor
>that was
>big enough to use on Lake Superior and on our favorite local lake didn't
>live up to the
>the reality of our occasional day sail use. We are located in northern
>Wisconsin,
>70 miles south of Ashland. The boat is available for a test sail on a
>local
>lake.
>
>She is in very good condition (normal nicks and dings) and loaded with
>features:
>IMF, Mack Mainsail 2005, Mack 150 Genoa 2002, whisker pole, plus the old
>sails,
>compass, depth/fish finder 2006, knot meter, tiller tamer, tiller
>extension, electric start Yamaha 9.9, rebuilt motor lift 2002, Triad
>single axle trailer in good condition, new tires and wiring in 2003,
>dual battery system, 32 watt solar charging system 2004, 2-way radio,
>new
>antennae (not installed), Alpine AM/FM/CD w/Infinity 6x9 speakers,
>porta-potty, pop top enclosure, new interior upholstery 2003, sink
>with pump & 15 gallon tank, propane single burner stove, bilge pump,
>ice box, Nicro solar powered vents, seat cushions for cockpit,
>transom mounted swim ladder, GB mast raising system 2003 new design
>(plus old design mast raising system)
>anchor, rode, dock lines, fenders, etc. $9000.
>
>See attached photo.
>
>Todd Zumach
>Phillips, WI
>715-339-4486 (please leave a message)
>-------------- next part --------------
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>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 15
>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:08:46 -0500
>From: "Steven Alm" <stevenalm at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] What Gives?
>To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Message-ID:
> <7ff0cdf80807140808s34eddce3gd336dc7efcc77862 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>Heading out this morning for a 5-day trip down the Mississippi River. Maybe
>my Mac will feel better after I get back. Bye for now.
>Slim
>
>On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:46 AM, <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > John,
> > Slims problem is that he's using one of those Apple computers.
> >
> > Rummy
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 7/14/2008 8:46:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > jlock at relevantarts.com writes:
> >
> > At 07:59 PM 7/13/2008 -0500, Steven Alm wrote:
> >
> > >testing 1, 2, 3... is this thing on?
> > >
> > >I've only gotten 6 posts in 3 days. I posted two messages two days ago
> > that
> > >never showed up.
> >
> > The list appears to be working OK. If you only seem to get
> > intermittent e-mails, the first thing to check is any spam filters
> > that may be in place on your computer or your ISP or e-mail
> > service. Check the junk boxes. If you have your filters set to
> > delete caught spam, you'll never know what you're missing.
> >
> > If you are still missing e-mails, contact me directly and give me
> > some details like approx. date and time of messages you sent and how
> > you sent them. There is always the possibility that some IP blocks
> > are in place somewhere and I'll need the technical details to track that
> > down.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > John Lock
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
> > Lake Sinclair, GA
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
> > music
> > scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
> > (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
> > __________________________________________________
> > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
> > http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > __________________________________________________
> >
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rhodes22-list mailing list
>Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>
>End of Rhodes22-list Digest, Vol 1555, Issue 1
>**********************************************
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go
>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________
>
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