[Rhodes22-list] Information gathering
David Bradley
dwbrad at gmail.com
Wed Jul 23 16:31:32 EDT 2008
When I first started hanging out at this bar I had a similar early
impression that the intense political debates and name calling were
doing a disservice to GBI. I soon realized that Stan is the best
marketer among us and if the list weren't helping him he would find a
way to influence it.
One suggestion I will offer...
Somewhere along the line I heard the argument that the non-sailing
topics keep the "regulars" engaged so they are around to answer
sailiboat questions. Makes good sense to me. We might consider
telling that to the newbies who want to save us from ourselves before
we tell them to f-off.
Or maybe not.
Dave
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:07 PM, elle <watermusic38 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> You got it, Rummy.
>
> Now let's see if we can put up or shut up...and what about the one who attacks the peacemakers???
>
> I'll take sasparilla.
>
> elle
>
> We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.
>
> 1992 Rhodes 22 Recyc '06 "WaterMusic" (Lady in Red)
>
>
> --- On Wed, 7/23/08, R22RumRunner at aol.com <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Information gathering
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 11:26 AM
>> Elle,
>> This list is not my sandbox. I'm just trying to get you
>> to understand that
>> we all are responsible for the content of the list. If
>> something is out of line
>> or objectionable or inflammatory, it's up to ALL of us
>> to correct the
>> behavior or leave it alone. Pressure from list members is
>> going to have more of an
>> effect than one person leaving the list because they
>> didn't like something
>> someone said.
>> Belly up to the bar boys and girls, the drinks are on me.
>>
>> Rummy
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 7/23/2008 11:22:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight
>> Time,
>> watermusic38 at yahoo.com writes:
>>
>> OK, Mr. Rummmmmmmy ;^), I did just that..just in case i
>> was forgetting or
>> unremembering something...
>>
>> Some (what I thought) were more pertinent points...and I
>> quote:
>>
>> 1. * The level of discussion does not have to be fit for
>> a child, but
>> some good taste is expected. (Hmmmm..kinda lost that for
>> a while....)
>>
>> 2. Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be
>> considerate of other
>> readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are
>> *not*
>> appreciated; but we are sailors....... (yea...but
>> we're not down at the
>> level of powerboaters. Not a slur..just an observation
>> based on working for three
>> years at a very busy marina)
>>
>> 3. There is a high level of chitchat on the list, and what
>> you might think
>> is insulting to a group or region might only be people
>> kidding each other
>> after knowing them for years. (if we can't tell
>> kidding from nasty & insult
>> then it must be nasty & insult.)
>>
>> 3. As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion
>> can lead to heated
>> augments and bar fights. These might be best avoided.
>>
>> Again, Rummy, I know this is your sandbox & i'm
>> just a guest....I'm not
>> trying to run things or be a schoolmarm trying to stifle
>> free speech...more like
>> a mom who feels bad whenher kids re fighting 7 can't
>> get'em to stop.
>>
>> Again, what do 'nasty , overbearing and crude'
>> add to any discussiion? We
>> know you're guys...;^)
>>
>> elle
>>
>>
>>
>> We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can
>> adjust our sails.
>>
>> 1992 Rhodes 22 Recyc '06 "WaterMusic"
>> (Lady in Red)
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 7/23/08, R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Information gathering
>> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 10:50 AM
>> > Elle,
>> > You are correct, communities change. People come and
>> people
>> > go, but this
>> > list has a charter. It's kinda like the
>> constitution.
>> > It's what we live by on da
>> > list. If you find someone's actions or posts
>> offensive,
>> > do something about
>> > it. Contact them directly, off the list and deal with
>> the
>> > problem, don't try to
>> > fix what ain't broken. Reread the charter so
>> that you
>> > understand what it
>> > says and what was meant when it was adopted many,
>> many
>> > years ago. The founding
>> > fathers were brilliant people.
>> >
>> > Rummy
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 7/23/2008 8:36:18 A.M. Eastern
>> Daylight
>> > Time,
>> > watermusic38 at yahoo.com writes:
>> >
>> > Rummy,
>> >
>> > Communities change and grow in directions influenced
>> by
>> > their deinzens.
>> >
>> > The tone of 'da list' has become quite more
>> > abrasive and bullying than it
>> > was before I joined...& i lurked for quite a long
>> time
>> > before my first posting.
>> >
>> > Yahoo has an integrated address book w/in its mail
>> > program...I occasionally
>> > go thru it & delete duplicate addresses...I did
>> this
>> > address the other
>> > day....and was really surprised at the number of
>> names
>> > that were frequent posters
>> > back when I was lurking but haven't been heard of
>> for
>> > quite a while.
>> >
>> > If this list doesn't grow, it will collapse
>> under the
>> > weight of the bully
>> > rhetoric. It is my opinion that the tone has changed
>> > BECAUSE there is very
>> > little new input...the newbies don't stick
>> around for
>> > civility to take over.
>> > They have no idea that it is any different than the
>> > snapshot they see.
>> >
>> > There will be no fresh ideas w/o fresh faces.....and
>> once
>> > you guys finish
>> > beating up on each other...what will be left? Wait
>> for
>> > another election to
>> > start over again? That'll get old for you guys,
>> too.
>> >
>> > The list does sit dormant now for a day or
>> so...often
>> > after an acrimonious
>> > beating......
>> >
>> > The founding fellas of 'da list' are 'way
>> past
>> > the need for sailing advice
>> > other than the "Hey, wouldja lookit this"
>> type
>> > posting.....it's the newbies
>> > that keep you rethinking technique and methods
>> w/their
>> > questions....
>> >
>> > So either 'da list' will become a closed
>> > community of a few who beat up on
>> > each other for sport, or it will be an
>> > 'interesting' place to hang around for
>> > info on sailing & whatever floats by.
>> >
>> > Whatever....
>> >
>> > elle
>> >
>> >
>> > We can't change the angle of the wind....but we
>> can
>> > adjust our sails.
>> >
>> > 1992 Rhodes 22 Recyc '06
>> "WaterMusic"
>> > (Lady in Red)
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> > <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> > <R22RumRunner at aol.com>
>> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Information
>> gathering
>> > > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 7:59 AM
>> > > Arthur,
>> > > As has been stated previously, this list was
>> started
>> > > because we wanted to be
>> > > able to post pictures and not have to worry
>> about a
>> > sailnet
>> > > moderator
>> > > stepping in to control our conversations. With
>> all
>> > due
>> > > respect, you are very new to
>> > > all of us and I don't believe that you are
>> in a
>> > > position to decide where the
>> > > list should go or how it should be run. This is
>> a
>> > > community. We have a
>> > > charter and when someone steps over the bounds
>> of
>> > the
>> > > charter, we police ourselves.
>> > > Yes, I am concerned that a poll from 268 non
>> > participating
>> > > people would lead
>> > > us in a direction the original founders and
>> > participating
>> > > members of this
>> > > list don't want it to go in. We have lost
>> a few
>> > people
>> > > over the years, but the
>> > > list is still strong with a large knowledge
>> base and
>> > we
>> > > will continue this
>> > > way for many years. Read the charter.
>> Understand it
>> > and if
>> > > you think someone
>> > > has stepped over the line, call them on it,
>> but
>> > leave this
>> > > site the way it is.
>> > >
>> > > Rummy said that.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In a message dated 7/22/2008 9:54:41 P.M.
>> Eastern
>> > Daylight
>> > > Time,
>> > > czerwonky at earthlink.net writes:
>> > >
>> > > John,
>> > >
>> > > I have no objection to having a poll. Rummy,
>> are you
>> >
>> > > worried what results
>> > > will show? Stan has sent potential skippers to
>> the
>> > list
>> > > as a promotional
>> > > witness, I have some doubts about whether it
>> helps
>> > his
>> > > efforts. I think the
>> > > prime objective for those subscribing to the
>> list is
>> > > building their sailing
>> > > knowledge and cohesion in the fleet. The often
>>
>> > exagerated
>> > > and pointless emotion
>> > > and language may provide a momentary email
>> thrill,
>> > but
>> > > face it folks, there
>> > > are better ways to get the points across.
>> > >
>> > > A poll could have distorted for sure, but not
>> only
>> > because
>> > > of the votes of
>> > > new skippers who are sick of political
>> posturing, but
>> > due
>> > > to the loss over
>> > > time of excellent former members who were sick
>> of the
>> >
>> > > bickering and were labeled
>> > > as internet police and the like, just for
>> expressing
>> > their
>> > > feelings
>> > > honestly. Numerous newbies and veterans have
>> been
>> > treated
>> > > in this way.
>> > >
>> > > It has been suggested that the Rhodes 22
>> sailing
>> > advocates
>> > > post their
>> > > messages on Sailnet or some other forum instead
>> of
>> > this
>> > > one. I suggest that
>> > > Rhodes22.org is by definition a Rhodes22
>> sailing
>> > site, and
>> > > that if someone really
>> > > wants to post political swill, they should
>> have no
>> > right
>> > > to soil the Rhodes22
>> > > skipper list or the Rhodes 22 name. Maybe a
>> more
>> > > appropriate site should be
>> > > their destination when they lose control.
>> > >
>> > > Nothing wrong with meaningful political
>> insights,
>> > but in
>> > > the tone and manner
>> > > I have seen, it is just way overdone.
>> > >
>> > > I refer back to sometimes comments about an
>> unnamed
>> > member
>> > > of our fleet -
>> > > those who cannot get their point across in a
>> civil way
>> > are
>> > > demonstrating their
>> > > 'mounting problems' to everyone now or
>> later
>> > who
>> > > reads about our Rhodes 22
>> > > boat and fleet. Some legacy we help provide to
>>
>> > Stan. As
>> > > he has gotten into
>> > > some of the dialogue, I have not seen a need by
>> him
>> > to be
>> > > foul in doing so.
>> > > Maybe we could follow his example...
>> > >
>> > > Art
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> > > >Sent: Jul 22, 2008 7:04 PM
>> > > >To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Information
>> > gathering
>> > > >
>> > > >John,
>> > > >Taking a poll is a lousy idea. You are
>> giving
>> > people
>> > > that have never and
>> > > >probably will never add anything to the
>> list
>> > decide
>> > > what direction we go
>> > > in. I
>> > > >think if anyone wanted to, they could
>> certainly
>> > > express their opinions
>> > > freely
>> > > >on da list. I think the majority of the
>> people
>> > like it
>> > > just fine. Everyone
>> > > >knows how to use the delete button. There
>> are
>> > times
>> > > when I don't have the
>> > > time
>> > > >to read all posts, but will sift through
>> the
>> > ones
>> > > that are sailing related.
>> > > >
>> > > >Rummy
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >In a message dated 7/22/2008 4:58:17 P.M.
>> Eastern
>> > > Daylight Time,
>> > > >jlock at relevantarts.com writes:
>> > > >
>> > > >At 04:25 PM 7/22/2008 -0400, Michael D.
>> Weisner
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >>I wonder if we can try to solve the
>> problem
>> > a bit
>> > > differently than
>> > > chasing
>> > > >>otherwise good folks off the list.
>> Maybe
>> > John
>> > > can set up a third
>> > > >>distribution mode in addition to
>> > > "Non-digested" and
>> "Digested",
>> > > something
>> > > >>called "Sailing limited"
>> which
>> > would
>> > > only receive items of sailing
>> > > interest.
>> > > >>Maybe we could use a prefixed subject
>> line
>> > > modifier such as "Sailing:" to
>> > > >>direct these posts to the limited list
>> as
>> > well as
>> > > the general list.
>> > > >>Forgetting to add the subject line
>> modifier
>> > will
>> > > only affect those who do
>> > > >>not wish to be on "da list",
>> not
>> > the
>> > > rest of us. John, is such a thing
>> > > >>doable?
>> > > >
>> > > >Doable, but probably not practical.
>> Besides
>> > the
>> > > programing involved,
>> > > >it depends on the poster remembering to
>> place the
>> >
>> > > magic word in the
>> > > >subject line. We all know how well THAT
>> works!
>> > > >
>> > > >Seriously... before we can discuss making
>> any
>> > changes,
>> > > we need more
>> > > >information. Right now we have no sense of
>> what
>> > the
>> > > majority
>> > > >wants. We've heard from the usual
>> suspects
>> > on
>> > > what they want, but
>> > > >there are 268 list members; most of whom
>> have
>> > not
>> > > stated a preference.
>> > > >
>> > > >We might assume that everything is
>> hunky-dory,
>> > since
>> > > we don't have
>> > > >268 complaints. But that may be because
>> no good
>> >
>> > > alternatives have
>> > > >been proposed.
>> > > >
>> > > >I'd like to suggest a simple poll. I
>> can
>> > whip
>> > > one up in a few
>> > > >minutes and post the URL to the list.
>> > We'll run
>> > > it for a couple
>> > > >weeks and see what kind of stats come out.
>>
>> > Might be
>> > > interesting to
>> > > >have some facts to kick around... yes?
>> > > >
>> > > >Cheers!
>> > > >
>> > > >John Lock
>> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > > >s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
>> > > >Lake Sinclair, GA
>> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
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>> >
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>> > > >
>> > > >
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--
David Bradley
+1.206.234.3977
dwbrad at gmail.com
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