[Rhodes22-list] Math -- Zero Sum Games

Bill Effros bill at effros.com
Fri Jun 6 20:46:50 EDT 2008


Brad,

Although many sources define zero sum games the way you have defined 
them, (the pie analogy) that is not the original definition.  I agree 
that the pie definition makes no sense.

If a pie is the game, then we would have to call it a one sum game, 
wherein any player taking more of the pie leaves the others with 
less--but the sum remains 1 (pie) -- each player gets a fraction.

Flipping a coin is a zero-sum game.  One wins, one loses, +1-1=0 -- zero 
sum.  There can be no ties -- the edge of the coin is too thin.

Tic-Tac-Toe is not a zero sum game.  Ties are possible. 1/2 win + 1/2 
win = 1.  A 1 sum game.

Football is neither a zero-sum nor a one-sum game -- which is why 
point-spreads are possible.

Poker is an interesting zero sum game, in which the losses of all the 
others equal the winning pot--unless there is a house rake, in which 
case, it is a less than zero sum game for the participants.

Similarly, taxes can never be a zero-sum game because of government 
overhead costs, be they fraud, inefficiency, or unequal representation.

Sorry about the side trip, I just see the concept of a "zero sum game" 
misrepresented so often I wanted to go back to find its real meaning.  
The way it is commonly used, it makes no sense.

Bill Effros

 





Brad Haslett wrote:
> Herb,
>
> The single biggest fallacy in economics is the 'zero sum game', ie, the pie
> is only so big and if someone else has a bigger slice then I'm being
> cheated.  What if someone bakes a whole new flavor of pie?  Say, a Bill
> Gates (who is barely on the top ten list anymore) creates something that
> didn't exist before, is there less to eat or more to eat because a whole new
> dish has been created?
>
> Now John has a point, education is the key to success, to a point.  Michelle
> Obama has been handed the keys to a first class education at two different
> Ivy League universities and she's bitter.  The Asian, or whatever, that was
> displaced to make room for Michelle has a valid reason to be bitter.  My
> bets are that they did quite well with their second choice and MovedOn.
> Access to higher education is the least of our worries.  Graduating people
> from K-12 that can actually read is a bigger issue.  Money won't solve that
> problem.  Work ethic is taught at home.  Destroy the home and you've
> destroyed society.
>
> Speaking of children, I've got to leave for the airport to meet my youngest
> son's Grandfather. He's flying in to Memphis to drive Fan's car back to
> California so Alex can report to his new assignment.  I would worry about a
> 75 year old man driving that distance non-stop in two days but he's ex-Army
> Special Forces.  He'll run at 110% until his heart quits beating.
>
> There's a lot of good men/women in this country!
>
> Brad
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> I firmly believe that one of the major things that divides the left from
>> the right is that the left seems to believe that there's only so much
>> wealth to go around, and if someone is getting more than their "share",
>> that means someone else is doing without.
>>
>> Most CEO's probably aren't worth what they get paid, but that's OK by
>> me. The people who decide how much they get paid are the ones that
>> should be making that choice, not me. I hear lots of workers talk about
>> how much more they should be getting paid because the company is making
>> money, but I can't remember ever hearing about employees saying their
>> pay should be cut because the company's doing poorly.
>>
>>
>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>     
>>> Herb,
>>>
>>> Everyone is hung-up on the "who's is bigger" issue.  I have no idea what
>>>       
>> the
>>     
>>> CEO of my employer is paid, its public information but I'm too lazy to
>>>       
>> look
>>     
>>> it up.  What difference does it make?  He pays me well and treats me well
>>>       
>> -
>>     
>>> I didn't risk my entire net worth to get the thing off the ground, let
>>>       
>> him
>>     
>>> have his reward. Same as Bill Gates, who cares if he's worth 5 million,
>>>       
>> 500
>>     
>>> million, or 50 Billion.  Everyone benefits from his efforts.  JFK said it
>>> best, "a rising tide raises all boats".  So what if a few people in China
>>> are becoming ridiculously wealthy.  The number of peasants is declining
>>>       
>> and
>>     
>>> the middle class is growing exponentially.  You don't build the weak by
>>> attacking the strong.  "Heaven on Earth" doesn't exist, but there's never
>>>       
>> a
>>     
>>> shortage of messengers to woo the foolish that it does.
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> And, as usual, you clearly demonstrate what I'm talking about.
>>>>
>>>> You and I say "judge the cat on how well he catches mice. To us, juding
>>>> that way constitutes a "level playing field".
>>>>
>>>> However, to some, the fact that the black cat can hide in the dark means
>>>> that the playing field is not level. Thus, the farmer (the "governmnet")
>>>> needs to step in by either providing additional mice in the grey cat's
>>>> hunting ground, lowering the expectations for the deprived grey cat, or
>>>> painting the black cat grey so their equal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> brad haslett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Herb,
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh what the hell, let's reinvent the wheel.  China experimented with
>>>>>           
>> "the
>>     
>>>> level playing field" and when that didn't work they reinvented
>>>>         
>> reinventing
>>     
>>>> the wheel with the Cultural Revolution. Then the idea of "I don't care
>>>>         
>> if
>>     
>>>> it's a black cat or a grey cat, as long as it catches mice" came along
>>>>         
>> and
>>     
>>>> now they're rapidly catching up with us and will soon kick our ass.  We,
>>>>         
>> on
>>     
>>>> the other hand, are trying to defy history and the nature of the entire
>>>> human race.  As Santayana said, "those who are ignorant of history are
>>>> doomed to repeat it!"
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> There's a lot of ignorance in this country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brad
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> From: Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Brad, Elle, Slim, et al... (Big Al
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>> Delete)(Political references)(Save America Campaign)
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>> Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 11:31 AM
>>>>>> I think the the notion that the government should provide a
>>>>>> "level
>>>>>> playing field" is valid, the problem comes in the
>>>>>> definition of what is
>>>>>> a "level playing field".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, but if MY expectation of a level playing field is
>>>>>> that my childre
>>>>>> be given the same financial opportunities as the children
>>>>>> of Bill Gates,
>>>>>> then my expectations are skewed. Bill's money is his to
>>>>>> do with as he
>>>>>> pleases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously, that's an extreme example, but that's
>>>>>> part of the problem.
>>>>>> Everyone has different notions of what constitutes a
>>>>>> "level playing field".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rik Sandberg wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "and *perhaps false hope*, is that government is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> supposed to maintain a level playing field for all citizens
>>>>>> in their "pursuit" of happiness."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> All one has to do is look at the situation we are in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> now, (the last 5 years) to realize that your dream of a
>>>>>> level playing field via gov't control is just exactly
>>>>>> that ... a dream and not a very good one at that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Money flows to where it gets treated the best. When
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> prices are artificially high or low that flow can become a
>>>>>> flood. Had the gov't stayed out of the banking business
>>>>>> for example and let interest rates assume their own natural
>>>>>> level, we wouldn't be seeing the collapse of a housing
>>>>>> bubble now. Instead we have mega-wealthy bankers who are
>>>>>> not held responsible for their own foolishness, a currency
>>>>>> that is fast becoming useless and 4 dollar gas, just to
>>>>>> name a few. Was that the help ... the level playing field
>>>>>> you were hoping for? That's what your gov'ts
>>>>>> meddling is doing for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Rik
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a centrally planned economy people get what they
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> deserve, but rarely what they really want. Mistakes tend to
>>>>>> be enormous...and petty. Results vary, but experiments with
>>>>>> central planning always end in pathetic messes.....Bill
>>>>>> Bonner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> john Belanger wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> brad
>>>>>>>> just one question:
>>>>>>>> how can you have so much confidence in the private
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> sector, and yet describe them this way:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> "I think most of the electorate is  ignorant
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> of history,  economics, and politics, but that's just
>>>>>> the mean-spirited, selfish,  and reality-based side of me
>>>>>> coming out."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> my belief, and perhaps false hope, is that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> government is supposed to maintain a level playing field
>>>>>> for all citizens in their "pursuit" of happiness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> someone once complained about people who
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> denigrated religious faith in the "new age of
>>>>>> reason" as unnecessary. to which the response was, you
>>>>>> don't want to be facing the devil without the shield of
>>>>>> religious faith between you and him. thats what i expect of
>>>>>> my government....a shield to defend me from excesses of the
>>>>>> private sector.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> s/v 1969 venture 21
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Brad Haslett
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> <flybrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> From: Brad Haslett <flybrad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Brad, Elle, Slim,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> et al... (Big Al Delete)(Political references)(Save America
>>>>>> Campaign)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 10:55 PM
>>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "I am sorry that you bought into the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> fellow travelers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> idea that compulsory
>>>>>>>>> purchase contracts by a government agency is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> the same as
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> collective
>>>>>>>>> bargaining.  In the compulsory contracts for
>>>>>>>>> pharmaceuticals there just
>>>>>>>>> might be unintended consequences."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where did you ever get that idea?  That is the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> antithesis
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> of my thought
>>>>>>>>> process. I believe there are damn few things
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> government can do
>>>>>>>>> better than the private sector.  We're
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> going to get
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> some form of "national"
>>>>>>>>> healthcare regardless of which party takes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> power.  The
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> country is in the
>>>>>>>>> mood. I think most of the electorate is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> ignorant of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> history,  economics,
>>>>>>>>> and politics, but that's just the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> mean-spirited,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> selfish,  and reality-based
>>>>>>>>> side of me coming out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BTW, I was the  guest of a government Kuhuna
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> last week
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> (sent his driver for
>>>>>>>>> us in a brand-new Audi) for tea (actually I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> drank free
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> communist beer).
>>>>>>>>> Life is good if you're in control.  The
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> difference is,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> in this country, I
>>>>>>>>> can complain about the quality of the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> government provided
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> "free" beer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have the farthest left candidate nominated
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> for President
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> in the history
>>>>>>>>> of the nation.  He's being propped-up by
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> the MSM which
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> is pretty far left
>>>>>>>>> themselves.  I hope everyone has their eyes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> open.  I have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> my exit plan.  Do
>>>>>>>>> you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Tootle
>>>>>>>>> <ekroposki at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Brad:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Keep the political references coming.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> Your last post
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> that had the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> http://gregransom.com/prestopundit/2008/06/obama-tell-us-what-a-sacrifice.html
>>     
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> lead to a very good analysis:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDkyZTNiZDdkMTNiNzViZTYxNDU0MTY4MzMzMzNmZDU=
>>     
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> I am sorry that you bought into the fellow
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> travelers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> idea that compulsory
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> purchase contracts by a government agency
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> is the same
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> as collective
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> bargaining.  In the compulsory contracts
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> pharmaceuticals there just
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> might be unintended consequences.  Small
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> unique drug
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> makers may be forced
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> not to participate resulting in their
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> demise because
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> of the very
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> specialized
>>>>>>>>>> uses of their products.  When complying
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> with request
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> for lower costs, jobs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> will be shipped overseas.  One of the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> first cost
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> cutting techniques of just
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> looking at the bottom line and not the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> future is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> research, which will be
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> left to foreign concerns.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In contrast, you have benefitted from
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> collective
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> bargaining where first, if
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> you did not like the contract, you had
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> freedom to work
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, FEDX concluded that the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> skill level of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> its employees was very
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> important to the success of its business
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> Additionally, detailed
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> analysis of the contracts show that the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> company can
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> still make a ROI that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> keeps it in business.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mixing the two concepts is just the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> Marxist way of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> inching away at
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> individual freedoms.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since you have unique research resources,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> where is a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> good article that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> clearly demonstrates Obama's socialist
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> (for those
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> not willing to accept
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> word, Marxist) economic ideology as having
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> historical roots in the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> concepts and beliefs of W.E.B. Dubois.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hopefully, Elle has been reading the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> articles to the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> point of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> comprehension.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>>>>> Greenville, SC, USA
>>>>>>>>>> attachment:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p17645451/today.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> today.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> http://www.nabble.com/Brad%2C-Elle%2C-Slim%2C-et-al...-%28Big-Al-Delete%29%28Political-references%29%28Save-America-Campaign%29-tp17645451p17645451.html
>>     
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>> archive at
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> __________________________________________________
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