[Rhodes22-list] (politics) See with a little work we can reachcommon ground

Thu Jun 19 09:57:39 EDT 2008

Brad,
Maybe I misspoke a bit.  I'm not hoping the Us will be defeated, in fact
we've already won "the war", if we're talking about defeating the Iraqi
military.  That was never really in doubt.  The problem is winning the peace
in a nation that really doesn't want us there. - rob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Haslett" <flybrad at gmail.com>
To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] (politics) See with a little work we can
reachcommon ground

> Rob,
>
> Don't let reality get in the way of your fantasies. The Washington Post
> hasn't exactly been a big supporter of the Iraq War but even they have
their
> "fantasy versus reality" delineation moments. Your hopes of seeing the US
> being defeated may have to wait for another war. This is what the WaPo had
> to say today.
>
> Brad
>
> ----------------------
>
>
> *Mr. Zebari's Message*
> Iraq's foreign minister has a chat with Barack Obama.
>
> Wednesday, June 18, 2008; A14
>
> SEN. BARACK OBAMA told Iraq's foreign minister this week that he plans to
> visit the country between now and the presidential election. We think
that's
> a good thing, not because Sen. John McCain has been prodding the candidate
> to do it but because it will give Mr. Obama an opportunity to refresh his
> badly outdated plan for Iraq. To do that, the Democrat needs to listen
more
> to dedicated Iraqi leaders like Hoshyar Zebari, the foreign minister -- 
who,
> it seems, didn't hold back during their telephone conversation.
>
> Mr. Obama laid out his current strategy for Iraq in November 2006, shortly
> before announcing his candidacy for president. At the time, Iraq appeared
to
> be on the verge of a sectarian civilian war, and Mr. Obama was trying to
> distinguish himself in the Democratic primary race by offering a timetable
> for withdrawal. Nineteen months later, the situation in Iraq has changed
> dramatically, with violence down 75 percent from its peak and the Iraqi
> government and army in control of most of the country. But Mr. Obama has
not
> altered his position: He still proposes withdrawing most U.S. troops
> according to a fixed timetable, set to the most rapid pace at which
> commanders have said American forces could be pulled out.
>
> Mr. Zebari, who has served as foreign minister in every Iraqi government
> since 2003, finds Mr. Obama's proposal worrying. In a meeting with Post
> editors and reporters Tuesday, he said that after all the pain and
> sacrifices of the past five years, "we are just turning the corner in
Iraq."
> A precipitous withdrawal, he said, "would create a huge vacuum and undo
all
> the gains and achievements. And the others" -- enemies of the United
States
> -- "would celebrate."
>
> Mr. Zebari said he told Mr. Obama that "Iraq is not an island." In other
> words, an American withdrawal that destabilized the country would also
roil
> the region around it and embolden U.S. adversaries such as
>
al-Qaeda<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Al+Qaeda?tid=inform
line>and
> Iran. "We have a deadly enemy," Mr. Zebari said. "When he sees that
> you
> commit yourself to a certain timetable, he will use this to increase
> pressure and attacks, to make it look as though he is forcing you out. We
> have many actors who would love to take advantage of that opportunity."
Mr.
> Zebari says he believes U.S. forces can and should be drawn down. His
point
> is that reductions should be made gradually, as the Iraqi army becomes
> stronger.
>
> The foreign minister said "my message" to Mr. Obama "was very clear. . . .
> Really, we are making progress. I hope any actions you will take will not
> endanger this progress." He said he was reassured by the candidate's
> response, which caused him to think that Mr. Obama might not differ all
that
> much from Mr. McCain. Mr. Zebari said that in addition to promising a
visit,
> Mr. Obama said that "if there would be a Democratic administration, it
will
> not take any irresponsible, reckless, sudden decisions or action to
endanger
> your gains, your achievements, your stability or security. Whatever
decision
> he will reach will be made through close consultation with the Iraqi
> government and U.S.
>
military<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Armed+Forces?t
id=informline>commanders
> in the field." Certainly, it makes sense to consult with those
> who, like Mr. Zebari, have put their lives on the line for an Iraq that
> would be a democratic U.S. ally. Mr. Obama ought to listen carefully to
what
> they are saying.
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Rob Lowe <rlowe at vt.edu> wrote:
>
> > Now THAT's history written like you won't find in the books.  Thanks,
John,
> > for a refreshing look at it.  That's pretty much the way I understand
and
> > remember it too.  Yes, the Vietnamese and Chinese are long time
adversaries
> > and they did fight a border war after we withdrew.  Vietnam was another
war
> > where flawed policy and beliefs led to a war we could not win.  Uncle Ho
> > wanted the invaders out of the country, be it the French, the Americans,
or
> > the Chinese.  An invader can not win a long term war against a
determined
> > foe that wants them out of there.  The examples are many.  All the
colonial
> > powers have withdrawn from their former colonies (anyone remember the
> > Colonies vs. England?).  That's why McCain's plans for Iraq are doomed.
> > I'll say it again, we can not and will not win in Iraq over the long
haul.
> > We invaded their country and they do not want us there.  They are
> > tolerating
> > us for now (like they have a choice, we do rule the country).  I'm very
> > curious to see what happens when the UN mandate expires at the end of
the
> > year.  After that, the US will have no legal authority to remain in the
> > country.  If the current talks between the administration and the Iraqi
> > government do not result in an agreement (which sounds very iffy at the
> > moment), then the next president won't have to worry about pulling out
or
> > not, we'll have to.  Unless the administration intends to ignore the
rest
> > of
> > the worlds opinion.  Of wait, already done that.
> >
> > Speaking of beer, off to the bar!  Time to stop thinking and start
> > drinking! - rob
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
> > To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] See with a little work we can reach common
> > ground
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > >      I like beer too !
> > >
> > > As for the rest
> > >
> > >
> > > Neither of these guys are the 'sharpest knives in the drawer'.  If
McCain
> > > had a clue he would have explained to his torturers, "look guys, life
for
> > > your friends the Chinese really sucks right now.  They've shut down
all
> > the
> > > universities and smart kids your age are out in rice paddies picking
> > leeches
> > > off their legs.  Eventually the Chinese will quit this silly nonsense
and
> > > start building toasters for WalMart and you guys will be stuck making
> > > underwear.  In the meantime, Uncle Ho and his buddies will kill 3
million
> > of
> > > your countrymen and another million will head to sea and eventually in
up
> > in
> > > the US and buy of hotels and convenience stores and stuff. I apologize
> > for
> > > President Truman ignoring Uncle Ho's request for assistance back in
the
> > late
> > > 40's, but the French needed their asses pulled out of the fire again
(I
> > > know, you'd think saving them from the Nazi's would have been enough
but
> > > then we had to save them from the Communists). Why don't you guys put
> > down
> > > the sticks and let me explain a little capitalism and econ101 to you".
> > >
> > > Unless my knowledge is faulty I believe the backer of the North
> > Vietnamese
> > > was the old Soviet Union and not the Chinese who were busy carrying
out
> > > there "cultural revolution" of Mao and trying to produce iron in
peasants
> > > backyards. We ignored Ho's requests because french plantation owners'
> > didn't
> > > want to lose access to their slave labor force and we were backing
> > DeGaulle
> > > and any petty thug or warlord that promised to fight the Red Menace
> > > (remember the Shaw of Iran and his secret police). After we left China
> > and
> > > Nam fought a conventional boarder war around 1980 (not totally sure of
> > the
> > > date sorry) which Nam won or now it would be a Chinese provence.
> > >
> > > That assumes of course that McCain understands economics himself which
by
> > > his own admission, isn't his strong suit. That said, I'll take someone
> > with
> > > a weak foundation in capitalism over someone who understands Marxist
> > theory
> > > all too well.
> > >
> > > I am terrified with the thought of a POTUS with a weak foundation of
> > > capitalism. The U.S. had pretty much unrestrained capitalism from its
> > > formation to 1932 and what was the result? 60 hr work weeks,
> > > sweatshops, sharecropping, child labor, no safety standards, the
company
> > > store. Unrestrained capitalism is why I now have federal mine
subsidence
> > > insurance the superfund to clean up toxic waste dumps and its my money
> > that
> > > is paying for this while the offspring of the Slimeballs who did this
> > live
> > > in the Hamptons and vacation in the Bahamas.  I never met either of my
> > > grandfathers. both died in their 40s' form overwork in the mills that
> > made
> > > the money to build Carnegie Hall. But I did see the medallion that one
of
> > > them left behind that was given to him for 30 years of service,
stamped
> > out
> > > of stainless steel they were to cheap to use silver. My grandmother
told
> > me
> > > when she was young she remembers company goons kicking the door in on
> > random
> > > searches the company carried out to make sure no employees were
stealing.
> > 4
> > > generations of people in the Pgh. area busted their butts and fought
in 2
> > > world wars to create the capital that then turned its back to the city
> > and
> > > found fresh slaves in Mexico and China. I'll take my chance on the
> > > Obamination as you would call him because I've seen the results of
> > > capitalism and unless you happen to be fortunate enough to be born
into
> > the
> > > upper classes you're pretty much screwed. Please don't bother to reply
> > with
> > > any rags to riches bullshit stories, for every one cited  I could
recite
> > > 1000 others who worked just as hard and got nowhere for their efforts.
> > There
> > > was a man named Hall who worked for Westinghouse in the late 50's or
> > early
> > > 60's who invented the process for making artificial diamonds, for his
> > > discovery the company in is overwhelming gratitude awarded him a $25
> > savings
> > > bond. Wonder how much they made on that since then?
> > >
> > > But I do like beer especially Pa. beer (I buy local and don't shop at
> > > Chink-mart either)
> > >
> > > Keep em coming
> > > John Shulick
> > >
> > >          "Resistance is futile you will be assimilated" The Borg.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> >
> >
http://www.nabble.com/The-Post-Turtle-%28Humor-Political%29-tp17936590p17991499.html
> > > Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >
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