[Rhodes22-list] (politics) See with a little work we can reach common ground

Sat Jun 21 22:52:02 EDT 2008

Brad,

Don't confuse folks with actual facts. Their minds are made up!!!!

Brad Haslett wrote:
> Rob,
>
> Don't let reality get in the way of your fantasies. The Washington Post
> hasn't exactly been a big supporter of the Iraq War but even they have their
> "fantasy versus reality" delineation moments. Your hopes of seeing the US
> being defeated may have to wait for another war. This is what the WaPo had
> to say today.
>
> Brad
>
> ----------------------
>
>
> *Mr. Zebari's Message*
> Iraq's foreign minister has a chat with Barack Obama.
>
> Wednesday, June 18, 2008; A14
>
> SEN. BARACK OBAMA told Iraq's foreign minister this week that he plans to
> visit the country between now and the presidential election. We think that's
> a good thing, not because Sen. John McCain has been prodding the candidate
> to do it but because it will give Mr. Obama an opportunity to refresh his
> badly outdated plan for Iraq. To do that, the Democrat needs to listen more
> to dedicated Iraqi leaders like Hoshyar Zebari, the foreign minister -- who,
> it seems, didn't hold back during their telephone conversation.
>
> Mr. Obama laid out his current strategy for Iraq in November 2006, shortly
> before announcing his candidacy for president. At the time, Iraq appeared to
> be on the verge of a sectarian civilian war, and Mr. Obama was trying to
> distinguish himself in the Democratic primary race by offering a timetable
> for withdrawal. Nineteen months later, the situation in Iraq has changed
> dramatically, with violence down 75 percent from its peak and the Iraqi
> government and army in control of most of the country. But Mr. Obama has not
> altered his position: He still proposes withdrawing most U.S. troops
> according to a fixed timetable, set to the most rapid pace at which
> commanders have said American forces could be pulled out.
>
> Mr. Zebari, who has served as foreign minister in every Iraqi government
> since 2003, finds Mr. Obama's proposal worrying. In a meeting with Post
> editors and reporters Tuesday, he said that after all the pain and
> sacrifices of the past five years, "we are just turning the corner in Iraq."
> A precipitous withdrawal, he said, "would create a huge vacuum and undo all
> the gains and achievements. And the others" -- enemies of the United States
> -- "would celebrate."
>
> Mr. Zebari said he told Mr. Obama that "Iraq is not an island." In other
> words, an American withdrawal that destabilized the country would also roil
> the region around it and embolden U.S. adversaries such as
> al-Qaeda<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Al+Qaeda?tid=informline>and
> Iran. "We have a deadly enemy," Mr. Zebari said. "When he sees that
> you
> commit yourself to a certain timetable, he will use this to increase
> pressure and attacks, to make it look as though he is forcing you out. We
> have many actors who would love to take advantage of that opportunity." Mr.
> Zebari says he believes U.S. forces can and should be drawn down. His point
> is that reductions should be made gradually, as the Iraqi army becomes
> stronger.
>
> The foreign minister said "my message" to Mr. Obama "was very clear. . . .
> Really, we are making progress. I hope any actions you will take will not
> endanger this progress." He said he was reassured by the candidate's
> response, which caused him to think that Mr. Obama might not differ all that
> much from Mr. McCain. Mr. Zebari said that in addition to promising a visit,
> Mr. Obama said that "if there would be a Democratic administration, it will
> not take any irresponsible, reckless, sudden decisions or action to endanger
> your gains, your achievements, your stability or security. Whatever decision
> he will reach will be made through close consultation with the Iraqi
> government and U.S.
> military<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Armed+Forces?tid=informline>commanders
> in the field." Certainly, it makes sense to consult with those
> who, like Mr. Zebari, have put their lives on the line for an Iraq that
> would be a democratic U.S. ally. Mr. Obama ought to listen carefully to what
> they are saying.
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Rob Lowe <rlowe at vt.edu> wrote:
>
>   
>> Now THAT's history written like you won't find in the books.  Thanks, John,
>> for a refreshing look at it.  That's pretty much the way I understand and
>> remember it too.  Yes, the Vietnamese and Chinese are long time adversaries
>> and they did fight a border war after we withdrew.  Vietnam was another war
>> where flawed policy and beliefs led to a war we could not win.  Uncle Ho
>> wanted the invaders out of the country, be it the French, the Americans, or
>> the Chinese.  An invader can not win a long term war against a determined
>> foe that wants them out of there.  The examples are many.  All the colonial
>> powers have withdrawn from their former colonies (anyone remember the
>> Colonies vs. England?).  That's why McCain's plans for Iraq are doomed.
>> I'll say it again, we can not and will not win in Iraq over the long haul.
>> We invaded their country and they do not want us there.  They are
>> tolerating
>> us for now (like they have a choice, we do rule the country).  I'm very
>> curious to see what happens when the UN mandate expires at the end of the
>> year.  After that, the US will have no legal authority to remain in the
>> country.  If the current talks between the administration and the Iraqi
>> government do not result in an agreement (which sounds very iffy at the
>> moment), then the next president won't have to worry about pulling out or
>> not, we'll have to.  Unless the administration intends to ignore the rest
>> of
>> the worlds opinion.  Of wait, already done that.
>>
>> Speaking of beer, off to the bar!  Time to stop thinking and start
>> drinking! - rob
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Shulick" <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] See with a little work we can reach common
>> ground
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Brad,
>>>
>>>      I like beer too !
>>>
>>> As for the rest
>>>
>>>
>>> Neither of these guys are the 'sharpest knives in the drawer'.  If McCain
>>> had a clue he would have explained to his torturers, "look guys, life for
>>> your friends the Chinese really sucks right now.  They've shut down all
>>>       
>> the
>>     
>>> universities and smart kids your age are out in rice paddies picking
>>>       
>> leeches
>>     
>>> off their legs.  Eventually the Chinese will quit this silly nonsense and
>>> start building toasters for WalMart and you guys will be stuck making
>>> underwear.  In the meantime, Uncle Ho and his buddies will kill 3 million
>>>       
>> of
>>     
>>> your countrymen and another million will head to sea and eventually in up
>>>       
>> in
>>     
>>> the US and buy of hotels and convenience stores and stuff. I apologize
>>>       
>> for
>>     
>>> President Truman ignoring Uncle Ho's request for assistance back in the
>>>       
>> late
>>     
>>> 40's, but the French needed their asses pulled out of the fire again (I
>>> know, you'd think saving them from the Nazi's would have been enough but
>>> then we had to save them from the Communists). Why don't you guys put
>>>       
>> down
>>     
>>> the sticks and let me explain a little capitalism and econ101 to you".
>>>
>>> Unless my knowledge is faulty I believe the backer of the North
>>>       
>> Vietnamese
>>     
>>> was the old Soviet Union and not the Chinese who were busy carrying out
>>> there "cultural revolution" of Mao and trying to produce iron in peasants
>>> backyards. We ignored Ho's requests because french plantation owners'
>>>       
>> didn't
>>     
>>> want to lose access to their slave labor force and we were backing
>>>       
>> DeGaulle
>>     
>>> and any petty thug or warlord that promised to fight the Red Menace
>>> (remember the Shaw of Iran and his secret police). After we left China
>>>       
>> and
>>     
>>> Nam fought a conventional boarder war around 1980 (not totally sure of
>>>       
>> the
>>     
>>> date sorry) which Nam won or now it would be a Chinese provence.
>>>
>>> That assumes of course that McCain understands economics himself which by
>>> his own admission, isn't his strong suit. That said, I'll take someone
>>>       
>> with
>>     
>>> a weak foundation in capitalism over someone who understands Marxist
>>>       
>> theory
>>     
>>> all too well.
>>>
>>> I am terrified with the thought of a POTUS with a weak foundation of
>>> capitalism. The U.S. had pretty much unrestrained capitalism from its
>>> formation to 1932 and what was the result? 60 hr work weeks,
>>> sweatshops, sharecropping, child labor, no safety standards, the company
>>> store. Unrestrained capitalism is why I now have federal mine subsidence
>>> insurance the superfund to clean up toxic waste dumps and its my money
>>>       
>> that
>>     
>>> is paying for this while the offspring of the Slimeballs who did this
>>>       
>> live
>>     
>>> in the Hamptons and vacation in the Bahamas.  I never met either of my
>>> grandfathers. both died in their 40s' form overwork in the mills that
>>>       
>> made
>>     
>>> the money to build Carnegie Hall. But I did see the medallion that one of
>>> them left behind that was given to him for 30 years of service, stamped
>>>       
>> out
>>     
>>> of stainless steel they were to cheap to use silver. My grandmother told
>>>       
>> me
>>     
>>> when she was young she remembers company goons kicking the door in on
>>>       
>> random
>>     
>>> searches the company carried out to make sure no employees were stealing.
>>>       
>> 4
>>     
>>> generations of people in the Pgh. area busted their butts and fought in 2
>>> world wars to create the capital that then turned its back to the city
>>>       
>> and
>>     
>>> found fresh slaves in Mexico and China. I'll take my chance on the
>>> Obamination as you would call him because I've seen the results of
>>> capitalism and unless you happen to be fortunate enough to be born into
>>>       
>> the
>>     
>>> upper classes you're pretty much screwed. Please don't bother to reply
>>>       
>> with
>>     
>>> any rags to riches bullshit stories, for every one cited  I could recite
>>> 1000 others who worked just as hard and got nowhere for their efforts.
>>>       
>> There
>>     
>>> was a man named Hall who worked for Westinghouse in the late 50's or
>>>       
>> early
>>     
>>> 60's who invented the process for making artificial diamonds, for his
>>> discovery the company in is overwhelming gratitude awarded him a $25
>>>       
>> savings
>>     
>>> bond. Wonder how much they made on that since then?
>>>
>>> But I do like beer especially Pa. beer (I buy local and don't shop at
>>> Chink-mart either)
>>>
>>> Keep em coming
>>> John Shulick
>>>
>>>          "Resistance is futile you will be assimilated" The Borg.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>>       
>> http://www.nabble.com/The-Post-Turtle-%28Humor-Political%29-tp17936590p17991499.html
>>     
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
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