[Rhodes22-list] motors
Peter Thorn
pthorn at nc.rr.com
Thu May 29 16:48:06 EDT 2008
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|220614|292251|316465&id=9
26156&cartId=869059
I have a 2005 Tohatsu 9.8 4-stroke. I bought the stripped model (no elec
start, no alternator) because at the time I did not have a slip and wanted
the lightest possible weight for trailer sailing. The motor weighs 83
pounds and most often starts on the first pull. They were out-of-stock on
the 8 hp, or I would have bought one of those. I understand the 8 and 9.8
are alike, with minor changes.
The 6.5 pitch three blade Tohatsu prop and can move s/v Raven to 6.0 hull
speed at 1/4 throttle. She will push past 7 knots at about 3/4 throttle,
but it's loud and mucho vibration. The best setting is about 4 knots sewing
machining along. It's quiet, like ghosting.
The new four blade prop that Defender has looks even better and might give
your 8 more muscle.
PT
-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of Bill Effros
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:50 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] motors
Lee,
I can't get my boat on a plane with the 8hp motor. The fact that you
can with a 9.9 is interesting. What do you suppose would happen with a
15? or a 25?
When wind and chop get too high, the 8 can't push the boat at hull speed
on Long Island Sound.
I have gotten stuck on my anchor when the wind exceeded 15 mph. (The
anchor wouldn't let go unless I got right above it because the wind had
driven it so hard into the bottom. You quickly understand the idea of
pulling on the anchor line isn't going to work. I couldn't go straight
upwind, and started running into propeller problems circling the anchor
and coming around from the top. ((Laterally you get blown off
course.)) I wound up putting a life preserver on the anchor line,
throwing the whole line overboard, ((remember, I use floating anchor
line--no chain)) circling to where the line dipped into the water,
hooking the line, letting go of the motor, pulling the anchor straight
up, getting the anchor on board without smashing into the boat, pulling
in the rest of the line and the life preserver, watching the lee shore,
hoping the motor didn't stall or get fouled on anchor line...
I don't recommend this when single handing. If I had a larger motor, I
would have been able to go straight up wind...
Now I'm wondering, "How large?"
Bill Effros
KUHN, LELAND wrote:
> Bill,
>
> When it comes time to replace my 9.9 Merc, I was planning on going
> electric or dropping down to an 8 hp. The 9.9 seems like way too much
> unnecessary power and way too much weight. Now I'm thinking a 6 hp
> might be more than enough.
>
> Does anyone out there with a 6 hp feel that it's not enough? What's the
> max speed on calm water? Have you ever had trouble in strong chop or
> current?
>
> My 9.9 will get my Rhodes up on a plane at over 6.5 knots in relatively
> calm water, and I've done just over 7 knots with small waves behind me.
> Pretty useless unless I'm trying to outrun a storm. It's so much
> quieter at slower speeds.
>
> Lee
> 1986 Rhodes22 At Ease
> Kent Island, MD
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mary Lou Troy [mailto:mtroy at atlanticbb.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] motors
>
> Brad
> I don't think we ever had our Honda 8 up over 2/3 throttle even in
> the most trying conditions. Usually it would move the boat to hull
> speed while loafing along at less than 1/2 throttle so it probably
> never really needed all 8 horses. Somewhere the law of diminishing
> returns has kicked in and I have my suspicions it may well be before
> 8hp. Too soon to tell on the Yamaha 8 but I would expect it to be the
> same. The big prop/high thrust may change the equation somewhat but I
> still am willing to be that it is more motor than we need 99.99% of the
> time.
>
> Mary Lou
> 1991 R22 Fretless
> Rock Hall, MD
>
>
> At 10:20 AM 5/29/2008, you wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> You are basically correct, the 9.9 engine is really a 15 hp engine
>>
> de-rated
>
>> via fuel flow to beat the regs. The difference between 8 hp and 9.9 hp
>> doesn't mean squat (as Rummy pointed out) because of hull speed,
>>
> however,
>
>> the 8 hp engine is working its ass off to produce those 8 hp versus the
>>
> 15,
>
>> er, 9.9 is loafing. We've been having this discussion on my Beechcraft
>> Bonanza board lately because 100LL fuel is dying and those boys who own
>>
> the
>
>> 550 cubic inch engines will be forced to de-rate their power to burn
>>
> the
>
>> lower octane fuel that my old bird burns with no problem. Weight is
>>
> one
>
>> thing and a whole other issue. Running a 15 hp engine at the 8 hp
>>
> level
>
>> will make for a long lasting engine.
>>
>> BTW, I got written-up by a student a few months ago because he pissed
>>
> me off
>
>> with his "stump the professor" questions and I reminded him of the old
>>
> adage
>
>> of how engines really work - SUCK/SQUEEZE/BANG/BLOW.
>>
>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Tom,
>>>
>>> The more powerful engine has the same block with a slightly
>>>
> different
>
>>> bore and the fuel injection is calibrated differently. The only
>>>
> real
>
>>> difference is power output and price.
>>>
>>> You can compensate for weight hanging off the stern by putting a
>>>
> bigger
>
>>> anchor up front.
>>>
>>> I am about to get a 4-stroke for the quiet factor, and trying to
>>>
> decide
>
>>> between 8 and 9.9.
>>>
>>> The 9.9 won't get you any more speed (I don't think you can plane
>>>
> when
>
>>> using the motor) but it will get you more power when the wind is on
>>>
> your
>
>>> nose--this will allow you to go faster into the wind.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I would guess it uses more fuel for the same
>>>
> distance
>
>>> traveled.
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mary Lou Troy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>> This is a case where I don't think bigger is necessarily better.
>>>>
> If
>
>>>> the weights are about the same, it probably is a trade-off but in
>>>>
> any
>
>>>> event it's a lot of weight hanging off the stern of a Rhodes 22.
>>>>
> I'm
>
>>>> convinced that it does negatively affect sailing characteristics.
>>>>
> We
>
>>>> scrounged for every pound that we could in looking for a new motor
>>>> but still ended up over 100 lbs. Of course we decided that at this
>>>> stage in our lives we've both had transient shoulder and back
>>>>
> issues
>
>>>> and that electric start made sense so that added to the weight.
>>>>
> The
>
>>>> old Honda 8 was about 80 lbs. If I was sailing a smaller lake
>>>> (anything smaller than Lake Champlain) I'd probably want a 4 or 6
>>>>
> hp.
>
>>>> Our old Honda "classic" 8 was a high thrust 4 stroke motor - not
>>>>
> as
>
>>>> high thrust as the Yamaha but it worked really well both over long
>>>> distances and maneuvering in close quarters. We haven't figured
>>>>
> out
>
>>>> maneuvering with the Yamaha. It doesn't seem to want to turn as
>>>>
> well.
>
>>>> Maybe the high thrust output against the rudder is interfering a
>>>>
> bit.
>
>>>> Maybe we just need to get used to it.
>>>>
>>>> For motoring long distances (long being 30-35 miles), you can't
>>>>
> beat
>
>>>> a four stroke. They are quieter and more fuel efficient than most
>>>> older two strokes. The quiet means you can easily have a
>>>>
> conversation
>
>>>> with someone else in the cockpit or hear what's happening on the
>>>> radio. It also keeps a peaceful morning motor with no wind and
>>>>
> flat
>
>>>> water peaceful.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think low rpms will hurt the motor (warning - this entire
>>>> paragraph is just slightly informed opinion). At a certain point
>>>>
> you
>
>>>> don't gain anything. A 15 hp won't move the boat any faster or
>>>>
> more
>
>>>> reliably than an 8. I doubt you could tell the difference between
>>>>
> and
>
>>>> 8hp and a 9.9hp all other things being equal. You are up to the
>>>>
> hull
>
>>>> speed limit easily with either one. I imagine (but don't know)
>>>>
> that
>
>>>> you might be able to tell the difference between a 6hp and an 8hp
>>>> coming through some place like Kent Narrows with the very strong
>>>> current under the drawbridge or maybe battling an 18 knot wind on
>>>>
> the
>
>>>> nose and a nearly one knot current under the Bay Bridge. We've
>>>>
> done
>
>>>> both of those trips with the old Honda and it performed very well.
>>>>
> I
>
>>>> expect our new Yamaha 8hp HT would handle both of those equally
>>>>
> well.
>
>>>> Mary Lou
>>>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>>>> Rock Hall, MD
>>>>
>>>> At 03:28 PM 5/28/2008, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mary Lou,
>>>>> Thanks, I will keep the ease of flushing the motor in mind when I
>>>>>
> buy.
>
>>> Was
>>>
>>>>> your old 8 a 4 stroke? Was it high thrust? If the 9.9 and the 8
>>>>>
> have
>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> same weight, why not buy the most powerful? Is part of the
>>>>>
> answer
>
>>> related
>>>
>>>>> to inefficiency at low rpm, ie., if a stronger engine will get to
>>>>>
> hull
>
>>> speed
>>>
>>>>> at lower rpm, will long runs at low rpm harm the engine? In my
>>>>>
>>> landlubber's
>>>
>>>>> imagination, I think a big motor will save my ass some day. As I
>>>>>
> get
>
>>> used
>>>
>>>>> to sailing, I am learning that sailing is probalbly safer than
>>>>>
> motoring,
>
>>> but
>>>
>>>>> I do want the ability to cruise long distances, maybe 20-30
>>>>>
> windless
>
>>> miles
>>>
>>>>> with a reliable motor.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Tom Hogarty, boat still on trailer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mary Lou Troy-2 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom,
>>>>>> If you are going to be leaving the boat in the water, one thing
>>>>>>
> to
>
>>>>>> consider is how easy it is to flush the motor with the boat in
>>>>>>
> the
>
>>>>>> water. We recently had to replace our 10 year old Honda which
>>>>>>
> died
>
>>>>>> from saltwater corrosion in the cooling water passages. There
>>>>>>
> was no
>
>>>>>> way to easily flush the motor. Newer Hondas have a more
>>>>>>
> accessible
>
>>>>>> flushing mechanism as do the Yamahas which is what we ended uo
>>>>>>
> with
>
>>>>>> (8 hp high thrust). Too soon to tell you how we like it compared
>>>>>>
> to
>
>>>>>> the Honda. We looked at a Mercury that was not easily flushed.
>>>>>>
> I've
>
>>>>>> heard but couldn't verify that the clearance in the cooling
>>>>>>
> passages
>
>>>>>> in the Merc are larger than in the Honda so this may not be a
>>>>>> problem. We didn't want to chance it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've found that 8 hp seems to be more than enough for any
>>>>>>
> conditions
>
>>>>>> you might want to be out in. The old 8 horse Honda pushed us
>>>>>>
> through
>
>>>>>> some strong currents, high winds and good sized waves on the
>>>>>>
> nose. We
>
>>>>>> could motor easily at hull speed in milder conditions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mary Lou
>>>>>> 1991 R22 Fretless
>>>>>> Finally in the water in Rock Hall, MD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 11:16 PM 5/27/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>>> I plan to sail the Chesapeake and am just mulling over the
>>>>>>>
> purchase of
>
>>> a
>>>
>>>>>>> high thrust outboard, certainly a 4 stroke.
>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rob Lowe wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom,
>>>>>>>> Where are you sailing? I sail an inland lake and my standard
>>>>>>>>
> 8hp 4
>
>>>>>>> stroke
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> has more than enough power. I rarely run it over 1/2
>>>>>>>>
> throttle.
>
>>> Those
>>>
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the coast might recommend something different. In fact, I
>>>>>>>>
> suspect a
>
>>>>>>> 6hp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would suit my needs. At one time there was a big 2 vs. 4
>>>>>>>>
> stroke
>
>>> debate
>>>
>>>>>>>> amongst the members, but if you are considering a new motor,
>>>>>>>>
> about
>
>>> all
>>>
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> can find is a 4 stroke unless you are looking at discontinued
>>>>>>>>
> models.
>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> rob
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Tom Hogarty" <hogarty at vcn.com>
>>>>>>>> To: <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 5:24 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Obama is a Crook!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am also considering a new outboard. Are the high thrust
>>>>>>>>>
> models, 8
>
>>>>>>> or 9
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hp
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ok? When not specified, I assume you are talking about 4
>>>>>>>>>
> cycles.
>
>>>>>>>>> Tom Hogarty
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>>>>>> No reflection on the Merc 9.9, but I have found, as others,
>>>>>>>>>>
> that
>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tohatsu 8 is one excellent choice for the R22. You might
>>>>>>>>>>
> give it
>
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thought. I have no idea on costing, but Ron Singerman is
>>>>>>>>>>
> using a
>
>>>>>>> 9.8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> his new boat.
>>>>>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: bdunn1 <bdunn1 at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: May 27, 2008 11:40 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Obama is a Crook!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rummy: Need your advice; my 8 hp Yamaha on my 98 Rhodes bit
>>>>>>>>>>>
> the
>
>>>>>>> dust; I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> am considering a 9.9 Mercury 4-cycle. When I bought the boat
>>>>>>>>>
> used it
>
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the remote controls and the motor connected to the rudder for
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> steering.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Question: Can I use the Mercury with the standard "all the
>>>>>>>>>
> controls
>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> handle", not connect it to the rudder and steer into and out
>>>>>>>>>
> of the
>
>>>>>>> dock
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with the rudder in the upright position using the motor to
>>>>>>>>>
> steer?
>
>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> will be some conflict with the railing but I thought by
>>>>>>>>>
> tilting the
>
>>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it would be ok.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Dunn
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 27, 2008, at 10:20:26 AM, R22RumRunner at aol.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Obama is a Crook!
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: May 27, 2008 10:20:26 AM EDT
>>>>>>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, not a thing. Same crap, different day. You know,
>>>>>>>>>>>
> politics
>
>>> and
>>>
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> sailing stuff thrown in for good measure.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rummy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 5/27/2008 10:13:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight
>>>>>>>>>>>
> Time,
>
>>>>>>>>>>> bill at effros.com writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have I missed anything?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
>>>>>>>>>>> s/v Little Queenie
>>>>>>>>>>> Greenwich, CT
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> "Cooking
>>>
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>>>>
> http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Politics%3A--Obama-is-a-Crook%21-tp17491569p
> 17500355.html
>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Politics%3A--Obama-is-a-Crook%21-tp174
>
>>>>> 91569p17504382.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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>>>>>>>
> Date:
>
>>>>>>> 5/26/2008 3:23 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>
>>>>>
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> 17520294.html
>
>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
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>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>
>>>
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