[Rhodes22-list] LURKERS -- PLEASE READ!

Bill Effros bill at effros.com
Fri Nov 14 10:34:39 EST 2008


For those who never contribute anything but question the right of those 
who do to comment off-topic -- where else can you find an analysis like 
the following?

Thanks Ed.  We know we don't always agree, but you continually make a 
huge contribution to this list.

The amount of time you spend helping others is truly appreciated.

Bill Effros



Tootle wrote:
> Art,
>
> In regards to putting another style mast and sail on other boats requires
> more than changing stays, mast base and some hardware.  Naval Architects
> analysis hull shape, center of buoyancy, center of effort, stability and
> other technical factors to determine sail plan efficiency and safety.
>   
> I have said many times on this form, I was in Vermont when the guy capsized
> his brothers Mac 26 and killed two kids.  He did not adequately fill the
> water ballast and the kids were not wearing life preservers. 
>
> Adding a IMF to a Mac 26 without adequate analysis of the mentioned above
> would just as dangerous.  Yes, you should hold your breath and not have
> anyone else on the boat.
>
> While I was rebuilding the O’Day 26 I asked Commodore Spitzer several
> technical questions.  Together we went over the potential of putting his IMF
> on the boat. Stan has put his mast on other boats, generally equal or
> smaller in size.  
>  
> You said, “Given that most of the driving power comes from the genny, and
> your's would be a 155-175% versus a 130, I suspect a net gain.”  I would
> suggest that you are wrong.  You assume that all sail power comes from the
> genny.  I sincerely question that assumption.  Yes, on this forum that has
> been stated that is so on the Rhodes 22.  I would question whether all sail
> plans that include a foresail get significant power from that sail.  And you
> have not begun to analysis slot effect.
>
> The sail plan for this boat is small foresail and large main sail.  I am not
> a Navel Architect not do I have Stan’s over 60 years of experience of sails
> on different boats.  Off hand I would say that on the existing sail plan the
> work of the sails on this boat is coming from the large main.  The foresail
> provides pointing ability and slot effect.
>  
> Also, C. Raymond Hunt designed many sail plans for his racing son, Jim Hunt. 
> While Ray was probably not involved, Jim was president of O’Day at the time. 
> Since both are sailing the wild blue yonder we cannot ask the questions. 
> John Deknatel will not speak to the subjects, for whatever are his reasons. 
> There is very little documentation.  Probably most of the knowledge was in
> their heads.
>
> The boom on this boat is even longer than the boom on its cousin the O’Day
> 25.  If you look at pictures of the ‘Skipjack’ and cat boats then you get
> the idea of the sail plan used on it.  An IMF sail plan might require a
> different location for the mast.  Mast are not stuck anywhere on a sailboat. 
> Their location is intrinsic in the boat’s design and projected sail plan.
>
> I have to ask, what would be the effect on stability of going to a large 175
> Genoa as its foresail?  You have already disregarded the concept of
> stability in suggesting putting an IMF on a water ballasted boat.  Do any of
> the boats using water ballast use an IMF?  If not, ask why not.
>
> There are many good books on sailboat design and all usually discuss sail
> plans.  There are also several good books on sails, for example, The Art and
> Science of Sails by Tom Whidden of North Sails.
>
> I am not precluding an IMF on this boat, although because of its age I
> question any large expenditure.  However, I suggest that some good analysis
> would be a good approach.  I would suggest that weight aloft needs to be
> competently evaluated on stability of new sail plan.
>   
> Ed K
>
> see:  See:  http://www.bertram31.com/ray_hunt.htm
>
>
>
>
> hparsons wrote:
>   
>> Don't know if you mean the Mac26 that is also a powerboat. If so, I 
>> don't think that's an experiment I'd try. That boat is very tender when 
>> that ballast is empty for "power boating" mode. I would avoid any 
>> modifications.
>>
>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>>     
>>> Herb,
>>> Looking at a snapshot of the O'Day 26, the spreaders are straight out, so
>>> the upper and lower side stays should be compatable (modified only for
>>> length).  The shoe for the mast bottom is available from Rudy Nickerson
>>> (D&R Marine in Mass).  Ed would have a neat craft with that IMF attached,
>>> especially nice with the large genny and the additional ballast.  Nice 26
>>> advertised in Racine Wisconsin.  I have been tempted to put an IMF on a
>>> Mac26 with full water ballast and hold my breath.
>>> Art
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> From: Herb Parsons <hparsons at parsonsys.com>
>>>> Sent: Nov 12, 2008 9:58 PM
>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] O'Day 26 w. IMF
>>>>
>>>> Actually, that last little bit is intriguing. The O'Day's mast is deck 
>>>> stepped, using a a plate, really looks more like a shoe. It would be 
>>>> pretty easy to buy another one of those, attach the other mast, and 
>>>> switch it out.
>>>>
>>>> The shrouds would be another story, but it's not like you'd have to 
>>>> redesign half the boat to do it as an experiment.
>>>>
>>>> On thing I would be cautious about, the O'Day only has 6 stays total, 
>>>> forestay, back stay, and two shrouds on each side.
>>>>
>>>> Arthur H. Czerwonky wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that most of the driving power comes from the genny, and your's
>>>>> would be a 155-175% versus a 130, I suspect a net gain.  Battened main
>>>>> matters not since you would be using the IMF sail/mast combo with IMF
>>>>> boom.  You would need to add a mid-boom bail and block to the traveler,
>>>>> of course.  I'm not sure about alignment of the spreaders and
>>>>> chainplates.  
>>>>>
>>>>> I was once contemplating installing my spare IMF mast to a non-R22
>>>>> boat, but have never gotten a round tuit.  The mast should fit, and the
>>>>> boat should do about the same as Stan's 26' creation.  Just an idea to
>>>>> chew on. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Art
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> From: Tootle <ekroposki at charter.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Nov 12, 2008 8:27 PM
>>>>>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list]  sailing reply to Arthur
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rhodes sail  ='s 210
>>>>>>
>>>>>> O'Day sail ='s 278
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a small boat that is a big difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also O'Day is a battened main (4).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Genoa usually 130% standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mast height on R = 26
>>>>>> Mast height on O = 28
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed K
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>> I expect the R22 IMF would be nice on your 26' O'Day, although the
>>>>>> stays
>>>>>> would need to be changed.  If the mast were used, the corresponding
>>>>>> boom
>>>>>> would need to be used and the genny also.  I doubt much significant
>>>>>> loss in
>>>>>> speed, alot gained in convenience.
>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/sailing-reply-to-Andrew...-tp20468855p20472957.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
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>>>>         
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>>>   
>>>       
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>>     
>
>   



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